White is the New Black (Ravenwing Vs. White Scars)

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Chaplain Lucifer, based on my thoughts and experience...I would say that we are still even better overall. Individually, our basic squad is (debatablly, I am not yet convinced by any stretch of the imagination!) weaker, but as a cohesive whole a Ravenwing army is better than the White Scars Bike Army.

 

Other than competitive comparison, I think the greatest fear Dark Angel players had was that C: SM 6th ed would prove to be a lot better than our codex, especially with regard to White Scars and Ravenwing. The only loss we currently have is a lack of grav weapons which appear to be the only great new thing in the codex that one would want to get (and makes Centurions worthwhile from a playing POV despite them being ugly)

[JeffJedi]

Their bikes will die to our increased bolter fire, not caring about their jink saves. Our bikes can still jink their Grav weapon shots.

 

I'm fine with that.

[shabbadoo]

White Scars vs. Ravenwing

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv4h3kXI3m1r03muio1_500.jpg

..and there we have it.

A full Ravenwing list can keep up closely enough. Ravenwing pay a bit more per bike because they have one additional rule and carry an additional piece of wargear- the teleport homer. It is only the player's fault that a pure Ravenwing force cannot make use of their own teleport homers, because we all know who is supposed to make use of them, and leaving those units out PURPOSELY means purposely NOT making use of equipment you *had* to buy. So, a pure Ravenwing force is a purposely NOT optimized force. At least it isn't as bad as it used to be points-wise, and the dakka banner helps out to be sure.

[Mantras]

I guess the argument needs contextualizing, the Ravenwing are just 1 component of the DA, and actually help glue together the other two elements very nicely and apply the most synergy. Teleport Homers being the most obvious but also the cover saves from the Landspeeder. White Scars are meant to be the best in the saddle, so of course they will be stronger. But DA are so flexible I do not feel jealous of SM at all.

[facmanpob]

I'll let you into a little secret (we're the Unforgiven, we all have secrets ), I started playing bikes in a Codex: SM list in 5th Ed, because I'd read that they were stronger than Ravenwing, partially due to embedding attack bikes within bike squads....

The first time I tried Ravenwing, and was therefore forced to run my Attack Bikes separately, I knew I'd made a dreadful error in ever using Codex:SM. Why? For my playstyle, running embedded attack bikes didn't work. It was too much like having a heavy weapon in a tactical squad, it dictated the way I ran the bikes, rather than me doing the dictating (I've always had an issue in focusing too much on allowing the heavy weapon to fire!). Of course, I could have run attack bike squadrons using C:SM, but using Ravenwing my Attack Bikes were scoring. All of a sudden, I had these cheap, mobile scoring units that could make themselves non-threatening and survive the game to contest/control objectives just when I needed them to. And I will use Ravenwing forever more!

So, what is my point? Codex:SM and Ravenwing are different. Not only in points, and wargear options, but also in attitude on the field of battle. Yes, a lot of the things they can do are the same, and White Scars can do them cheaper, but a lot of the things the Ravenwing can do, can't be done by Codex bikers. e.g......

Want to run some cheap outflanking melta suicide squads in your Dark Angels list? Easy, 155 points will give you 2 units, which only take up 1 FOC slot, one with 2 meltaguns and the option for melta bombs, and the other with a multi-melta. In a Ravenwing army they can even be troops, freeing up Fast Attack slots for Black Knights, speeder squadrons and the Dark Shroud. Hey, why don't I take double the amount (2 melta bike squads and 2 MMAB - 310 points - using up 2 of my 6 troops slots) and have the possibility of outflanking melta doom coming at my opponent on turn 2+, and if any of them survive the alpha strike, they can high-tail it back to my lines to babysit a home objective.

Want to do it in your White Scars list? Yes you can run a 3 man melta bike squad, and a MMAB, and you'll save 17 points, but you are taking up 2 Fast Attack slots. Want them to outflank? Well, now you have to take Khan to give them the Scout rule - fair enough, no problem with that, but the RW bikers come with Scout as standard. But they aren't going to be scoring, so that 17 points saved comes with a much reduced utility on the field of play. Want to double up the numbers like we did above? Well, you can't, because you haven't got enough Fast Attack slots....

Ravenwing bikers also synergise with the rest of the DA codex. our bikers synergise with our terminators and Deathwing Knights, which synergise with our Black Knights, which synergises with the Dark Talon and Dark Shroud etc etc.

In summary, my point is this. Yes, white Scar bikers are, point for point, cheaper than Ravenwing bikers, and have some wargear options and special rules that make them a bit more killy and a bit more shooty in some situations. But the Ravenwing Attack Squadron is designed to form part of a bigger synergistic picture, one which is difficult to use correctly (and believe me I've done some awful things with my bikes on the battlefield!), but which can be utterly devastating in the hands of a good player.

Finally, the way to make the best use of the new codex is, in my opinion, a Ravenwing Primary detachment with a White Scar allied force, and that is something I will be looking into at some point in the future....

TL;DR - Ravenwing aren't worse or better than White Scar bikers; they are different. Using them as allies could well be the best way to make use of all of their individual tricks and options

[imustbedreamin]

so are we saying running a ravenwing only army is a dumb move (this is fun not tournament play) as you will seldom get anywhere near winning?

[facmanpob]

so are we saying running a ravenwing only army is a dumb move (this is fun not tournament play) as you will seldom get anywhere near winning?

well, that's not what I said.... but personally I would look to include some Deathwing Knights in a Ravenwing heavy list.

[Brother dean]

so are we saying running a ravenwing only army is a dumb move (this is fun not tournament play) as you will seldom get anywhere near winning?

well, that's not what I said.... but personally I would look to include some Deathwing Knights in a Ravenwing heavy list.

Plasmanator dakka squad for me... Otherwise they spend a turn standing around with maces in inappropriate spaces and lose the use of Vengeful Strike..

[Azrael Turnbull]

so are we saying running a ravenwing only army is a dumb move (this is fun not tournament play) as you will seldom get anywhere near winning?

 

The Ravenwing can transform into a 'one wing' army by including units such as the Dark Shroud. Ravenwing can be used competatively, with or without the Dakka Pole. It's not the best thing out there, but it's still viable and it's still strong. Similarly, Deathwing only armies are still competative. I love our new codex purely because we're not forced to play one way. We can do whatever the hell we want!

 

Playing a pure Ravenwing army well will get some getting used to if you usually use Deathwing and/or Greenwing.

[Tiger9gamer]

TL;DR - Ravenwing aren't worse or better than White Scar bikers; they are different. Using them as allies could well be the best way to make use of all of their individual tricks and options

Now i feel stupid basically been playing RW one way since it came out.

Then again, it's not like players can't switch between codex's, right?

[imustbedreamin]

 

so are we saying running a ravenwing only army is a dumb move (this is fun not tournament play) as you will seldom get anywhere near winning?

 

The Ravenwing can transform into a 'one wing' army by including units such as the Dark Shroud. Ravenwing can be used competatively, with or without the Dakka Pole. It's not the best thing out there, but it's still viable and it's still strong. Similarly, Deathwing only armies are still competative. I love our new codex purely because we're not forced to play one way. We can do whatever the hell we want!

 

Playing a pure Ravenwing army well will get some getting used to if you usually use Deathwing and/or Greenwing.

 

Thanks for this,

 

i have never played a game of 40k in my life so forgive me if im not up on the lingo (i try my best to understand).........im building a 1000pt force to take along to my local GW and have a beginners game and have chose a RW army to start.

 

I appreciate they have to be played well to get the best out of them but I like to be chucked in at the deep end.....i tend to learn quicker.

 

thanks again.

[shabbadoo]

 

so are we saying running a ravenwing only army is a dumb move (this is fun not tournament play) as you will seldom get anywhere near winning?

No, as that is not necessarily going to be the case. However, those who run a pure Ravenwing army will very much be wasting points in the form of included teleport homers which can't be used, meaning going up against a White Scars army will see you outnumbered simply due to the points efficiency of the White Scars units. We could better compare these two forces as stand-alone groups if the teleport homers were optional upgrade equipment for Ravenwing. As teleport homers are a forced purchase though, you just have to acknowledge it, accept it, and move on.

So, if you play against White Scars with a pure Ravenwing force, you are the underdog. White Scars have good rules, but so do the Ravenwing, and the Ravenwing can field more veterans than they can, meaning our close combat potential (the bane of bike armies) is better. so, platy to you advantages, look for the mismatch (easier for us to do than for them), and you might not be as much of an underdog as you think.

[Azrael Turnbull]

 

so are we saying running a ravenwing only army is a dumb move (this is fun not tournament play) as you will seldom get anywhere near winning?

No, as that is not necessarily going to be the case. However, those who run a pure Ravenwing army will very much be wasting points in the form of included teleport homers which can't be used, meaning going up against a White Scars army will see you outnumbered simply due to the points efficiency of the White Scars units. We could better compare these two forces as stand-alone groups if the teleport homers were optional upgrade equipment for Ravenwing. As teleport homers are a forced purchase though, you just have to acknowledge it, accept it, and move on.

 

So, if you play against White Scars with a pure Ravenwing force, you are the underdog. White Scars have good rules, but so do the Ravenwing, and the Ravenwing can field more veterans than they can, meaning our close combat potential (the bane of bike armies) is better. so, platy to you advantages, look for the mismatch (easier for us to do than for them), and you might not be as much of an underdog as you think.

 

Our points deficit is compensated by the gains from the Dark Shroud, Black Knights (or in 1k pints case, just a RW command squad), and if you're feeling particularly mean, the Dakka Pole. RW Bike for WS Bike, WS win, yes. RW Army for WS army, it depends on dice and skill.

 

When comparing RW against a normal army and WS against a normal army, RW are more sustainable due to the Dark Shroud. Both armies have their own source of hitting power (Black Knights vs +1s on charge, etc.). Black Knights can forfill the roll of anti-flyer, whilst the WS need to bring in a dedicated anti-flyer unit.

 

When comparing RW vs WS directly, our Black Knights will make a mess of everything in close combat or shooting as long as we look after them like we're supposed to. Every other unit can be sacrificed if it means letting the Black Knights wreak havoc for another turn.

 

Seriously, what was the Games Workshop thinking when they released the rules for Black Knights. They must've been higher than when they thought of the Dakka Pole.

 

If the WS want to bring in other non bike components, like Tactical Marines and tanks, they're bringing the same units we have access to (bar the anti-flyers and Centurtions), so there's no room for complaint. Ok, maybe for Centurtions... Tie those bastards up in close combat and fast.

 

I believe the problem most of us Dark Angels players are currently experiencing comes from being used to an underhanded and outdated codex for far too long. Times have changed, brothers. Our codex is still new and considered by some to still be overpowered.

[Master Avoghai]

If the WS want to bring in other non bike components, like Tactical Marines and tanks, they're bringing the same units we have access to (bar the anti-flyers and Centurtions), so there's no room for complaint. Ok, maybe for Centurtions... Tie those bastards up in close combat and fast.

They can also bring thunderfire cannons, storm ravens, storm talons... I've seen the havocs that a couple of thunderfire can do... S6 4templates each every turn, barrage...it's really annoying...

[facmanpob]

Allies.... Allies.... Allies....

we can have Black Knights, Dark Shrouds, Ravenwing Attack Squadrons AND Storm Talon/Raven, Grav bikers, T-fire cannon..... ultimate cheese!

And, Sammael's Skilled Rider stacks with "Born in the Saddle", so attach Sammy to that big grav biker squad for a 3+ jink save

[Azrael Turnbull]

To me, all allies are desperate allies!

 

 

If the WS want to bring in other non bike components, like Tactical Marines and tanks, they're bringing the same units we have access to (bar the anti-flyers and Centurtions), so there's no room for complaint. Ok, maybe for Centurtions... Tie those bastards up in close combat and fast.

They can also bring thunderfire cannons, storm ravens, storm talons... I've seen the havocs that a couple of thunderfire can do... S6 4templates each every turn, barrage...it's really annoying...

 

There are still more units, like Sternguard, Vanguard etc. It doesn't counter my argument. These units are simply units. You pay points for them and get what you paid for. In my honest opinion, I'd much sooner take a pure Plasma Cannon Devastator squad over the Thunderfire Cannon. Sacrifice Barrage (meh) and add a few points (and wounds) and turn those shots into str 7 AP 2.

 

The Centurions and anti-aircraft are the only things worth notice. the anti-aircraft as we have no solid similar choice not taken from Forge World. the Centurions because... Well, I guess they're not that great. Anyone packing them with Grav Cannons whom finds themselves against Orks or 'Nids are going to be hitting their heads. Plasma Weapons are still useful in this area, and therefore more reliable when you don't know your opponent (reliable Plasma Weapons is an oxymoron, I know). What are Centurions cost, anyway? 60, 70 points each? For three that's 180 to 170. That is more expensive than any 5 man Devastator team you choose to field. Admittedly, you gain durability from shooting and close combat, but you should know how to look after your Devastators!

 

Since my workshop stopped doing gaming evenings, I haven't managed to play as much as I used too; but since the new codex came out, I have a perfect track record with it. I've only managed to best my 12-0 winning streak with a cheesy old Eldar codex list. And the Eldar were purely competitive, not fluffy like my Dark Angels lists.

 

Tl;dr, We need no ones help. We're awesome.

[SvenONE]

Good discussion with good points! Just a few notes:

 

I should have been more clear the context of my comparison. It was intended as a comparison of your army being "Bikes-As-Troops" between the two codices, also I am a player type who doesn't participate in large tournaments outside my local gaming league.

 

I wrote this over the course of 2 days, one having both codexes in front of me, and another just having the DA Codex in front of me. I also wrote two conclusions. I had also written one that "the jury was still out on" but when it came time to publish I gave the edge to the White Scars. As I noted, this is due in part to the DA pretty much costing more for their supporting units. I don't want to get on a debate about poo-pooing on RW (after all they are my wing of choice)

 

About the Banner:

I did mention it, honest! It was in the command squad, I just assumed without naming it directly we'd know what it was. I love the banner, I use the banner, but I think it's still an extremely risky play. A few bad rolls or focused fire and your bikes are now bikes. I would say it's widely accepted that the banner is the the clear cut way to run a Ravenwing force. I don't want to go TOO far into banner discussion because it's a discussion in its own right, but I will try and keep it as concise as possible without skimming on important details.

 

To get the banner you need a bike mounted HQ. The cheapest that this is even possible is 270 points (Bike Libby + Command Squad). But this doesn't open up using bikes as troops. For that you need to either add Azrael to that combo, or replace the Libby with Sammael (or add him) ~480 points before you even add two extra Knights to the squad, Apoth Upgrade, or in the case of the Librarian, adding the often carried Power Generator. Things are really starting to add up now, and we haven't even purchased any units that can benefit from it. So when people say about how great the banner is, I agree it is, but it's not like we're not paying SIGNIFICANTLY investing in it.

 

My overall point with the banner is that if you want to run a bikes-as-troops army with it, you are investing heavily in your HQ. Furthermore to capitalize the investment in the banner you need to continue to invest into those bike squads.

 

About Attack Bikes:

This I think is a personal preference. Personally I'd prefer the attack bike to be embedded in the squad rather than having to play cautiously to avoid first blood. I've never seen a reason to use an attack bike to claim an objective, especially if it's running a MM in which case it's existence was to never claim an objective to begin with

 

About the Darkshroud:

I also love the Darkshroud, but at the end of the day it's still a AV10 2HP Skimmer. It's essentially an 80 point piece of wargear. A 2+ jink save is obviously a very exclusive thing in this game, but it's going to need it considering that it's going to be sitting in range of anything that can kill it. Bottom line is that every White Scars Bikes always get a +1 to their jink, as opposed to ours that is only only a 6" bubble for 80 points.

 

About Supporting Units on Both Sides:

When running the banner Ravenwing really have a significant investment which eats into the cost of any supporting units. The thing that screams out the most are the Black Knights, and they are still probably the best all-round bike units in the game. Beyond that terminators really eat up your points fast and the DA flyers are…*sigh*. Though, a Dark Talon with a banner is always good for a distraction and some laughs. LRC is also a good bet as a flanking command squad gives those Hurricane Bolters a very good boost. As also mentioned by Azrael, there's plenty of other unique units that C:SM has access to support bikes -- and well. There isn't really a supporting whole lot that screams out as a clear winner in the C:DA

 

Shabbadoo's point about teleport homer tax is also really telling of how GW was planning on the codex being used. This again is one of the reasons that I had given White Scars an edge when it comes to pure bikes vs ravenwing pure bikes. You're paying for something you don't need.

 

If the logic is that: DA bikes come with teleport homers, so you use deathwing to support, that's great but you have no troops without expensive HQs, otherwise you can just use regular assault marines (which honestly I don't know if I've ever seen DA Assault Marines). Conversely, If you want to go banner, you're investing heavily into an HQ-centric army and then investing and paying for bikes that won't be able to use their homers AND severely limits your heavy support options.

 

I just think that White Scars are getting a bit more flexibility, while putting more models on the table at lesser costs AND netting a high amount of troops.

 

About Allies:

There's really no argument AGAINST allying unless you are playing a narrative-list of some kind. You can get the best of both worlds using one of those detachments to basically outflank while the other rams through the enemy line.

 

I'll still continue to play Ravenwing-centric armies simply because I love Black Knights. But with all the bikes I have I might just make my Sammael "count-as" Khan. This is a good discussion, I'm looking forward to seeing the different White Scars lists popping up over the next few weeks and hoping to find a WS player to pit both armies againt one another!

[Master Avoghai]

There are still more units, like Sternguard, Vanguard etc. It doesn't counter my argument. These units are simply units. You pay points for them and get what you paid for. In my honest opinion, I'd much sooner take a pure Plasma Cannon Devastator squad over the Thunderfire Cannon. Sacrifice Barrage (meh) and add a few points (and wounds) and turn those shots into str 7 AP 2.

 

What I'm saying is

1- I'm perfectly happy with my DA codex and don't plan to field allies at standard 2000pts game

2- I'm perfectly aware and convinced that a fully RW army can perform very well against a full bike/LS WS army.

3- the only case where WS will totally outclass us is in a case of bike strong army with other support units list.

Bike to bike we have advantages they have theirs, but when it comes to specific support units, we can't say that our Nephilims LS vengeance or Darkshroud can out class the talon or the raven or the centurions or the thunderfire.

 

And be sure that your 4 plasma squads will be totally wiped out after 2 turns of barrage of a single thunderfire... You'll need LOS they don't. And even if you manage to get one, 99% of the time they'll be in a piece of terrain bolstered by the tech... The AP2 is of no use against a 3+ cover save.

 

I've neglected the thunderfire.., I've paid it enough to know how advantageous it is

[facmanpob]

Good discussion with good points! Just a few notes:

Yes it is! And it's nice to see a mature discussion that isn't degenerating into "My Primarch's bigger than your Primarch!" Kutgw everyone!

About the Banner:

I did mention it, honest! It was in the command squad, I just assumed without naming it directly we'd know what it was. I love the banner, I use the banner, but I think it's still an extremely risky play. A few bad rolls or focused fire and your bikes are now bikes.

*SNIP*

Things are really starting to add up now, and we haven't even purchased any units that can benefit from it. So when people say about how great the banner is, I agree it is, but it's not like we're not paying SIGNIFICANTLY investing in it.

My overall point with the banner is that if you want to run a bikes-as-troops army with it, you are investing heavily in your HQ. Furthermore to capitalize the investment in the banner you need to continue to invest into those bike squads.

I found this section of your reply interesting, for a couple of reasons. The first is about taxes. People are always banging on about paying an allies tax, or an HQ tax, etc etc, but are they really as significant as they are sometimes made out to be?

Taxes

Sammael is expensive, yes, 50 points more expensive that Khan. But for that we get a Warlord who is immune to Instant death, and has a much better (imo) chance in CC with the Raven Sword. He also packs a plasma cannon, which is no mean weapon. Finally, he has a warlord trait that he and his attached squad can use every turn, unlike Khan, who has to try to beat the enemy Warlord in a challenge to gain any benefit from his.

Later on in your post you also mention "When running the banner Ravenwing really have a significant investment which eats into the cost of any supporting units. The thing that screams out the most are the Black Knights, and they are still probably the best all-round bike units in the game." Just a moment though! In order to run a banner I must purchase a Command Squad. To run a banner in a Ravenwing army I should be taking a Ravenwing Command squad, which consists of..... Black Knights! So, if I'm going to be taking Black Knights in the army anyway, taking a 5-man RW Command Squad is a zero tax investment, and actually doesn't take up a Fast Attack slot which could be used for speeders, Dark Shroud, and, yes, possibly more Black Knights.

The second reason I found it interesting is because of the automatic assumption that we will be using the SoD (and I appreciate that you hint at the fact that you already know exactly what I am about to write, but I'm going to write it anyway ).

Banner Choice

Now, this isn't a bad assumption, as most of the DA discussion on tinterweb revolves around which banner people are taking (usually SoD for Greenwing and Ravenwing; SoF for Deathwing). However, more recently, I've been tinkering with the Ravenwing Company Banner, and the result of my tinkering is that I think the Company Banner has a number of advantages over the SoD.....

The main one is in threat reduction. An army that uses the Standard of Devastation, should be built around it. Let's face it, it is an awesome banner, and as such there's lots of discussion about running it in PA Command Squads inside a Land Raider for maximum protection, or attaching Techmarine or Libby bikers with the PFG to a banner toting RWCS. However, there's a big problem with running the SoD; your opponent knows exactly what to kill in order to hamstring your army.

Running the RW Company Banner, whilst immediately saving you a stack of points, also reduces the threat of the Command Squad from "Holy ....., I must kill that unit now" to "Eeek! Black Knights!" level.

The second one is that (unlike white Scars) our bikers don' need no steenkin' chapter tactics to get Hit and Run, we get it automatically. Taking a banner (with all the inherent morale bonuses) that allows you to automatically pass H&R tests, and increases the average distance you will move during the H&R move, is unbelievably good!

TL;DR

1 - Sammy is worth the extra points, imo

2 - Investing in a Ravenwing Command Squad is a zero cost tax, as they are one of, if not the, best units in the codex (and possibly the entire game); the Ravenwing company banner is a good alternative choice to the SoD, and the SoD shouldn't be considered a "must-have"

Anyway, that's some more of my tuppences cast into the melting pot, if you'll excuse the mixed metaphors

[Brother dean]

 

 

About the Banner:

I did mention it, honest! It was in the command squad, I just assumed without naming it directly we'd know what it was. I love the banner, I use the banner, but I think it's still an extremely risky play. A few bad rolls or focused fire and your bikes are now bikes. I would say it's widely accepted that the banner is the the clear cut way to run a Ravenwing force. I don't want to go TOO far into banner discussion because it's a discussion in its own right, but I will try and keep it as concise as possible without skimming on important details.

 

To get the banner you need a bike mounted HQ. The cheapest that this is even possible is 270 points (Bike Libby + Command Squad). But this doesn't open up using bikes as troops. For that you need to either add Azrael to that combo, or replace the Libby with Sammael (or add him) ~480 points before you even add two extra Knights to the squad, Apoth Upgrade, or in the case of the Librarian, adding the often carried Power Generator. Things are really starting to add up now, and we haven't even purchased any units that can benefit from it. So when people say about how great the banner is, I agree it is, but it's not like we're not paying SIGNIFICANTLY investing in it.

 

My overall point with the banner is that if you want to run a bikes-as-troops army with it, you are investing heavily in your HQ. Furthermore to capitalize the investment in the banner you need to continue to invest into those bike squads.

 

 

I agree 100% except...  (you knew it was coming) those units are expensive because they do have some significant abilities by themselves,  just taking the banner does not hinder those abilities in any way and only enhances the other units so the opportunity cost is still only 65 points.  You can argue that those points could go to troops squads but admit it, you are taking some Black Knights anyway and this way you are getting 5 without it eating a FA slot, and you are taking Sam anyway for your FA as troops, the only time you would need the libby was if you are running Az for the one or two squads of termies as troops (which could also be used and more usefully for RAS... termies storm bolters not being affected by the banner.)

 

Summation, you are likely taking those units in one form or another anyway so you cannot put all those 460odd  points in as an "opportunity cost" for just the banner...

 

 

Edit:  And Ninja'd

[facmanpob]

Edit: And Ninja'd

He shoots; he scores!

[Brother dean]

I try....

 

 

But facman brings up a good point.  What is it worth to have a bonus dice and auto pass on a HnR move?   I havent worked out my banner squad yet because I dont have it painted (Yes, I am one of those) but when this thread started I read through all the banners and the RW co banner is a good choice too...

 

And moving 5 of my 6 BKs out of the FA slot opens up one and would I mind losing my DW squad if I can get a speeder support squad going to run next to Sableclaw and the other two squad speeders?...

 

I likey this thread...   Its making me think...  Mrs. Dean is not as happy with that tho...  (Cause Mk II speeders dont come around that often and  it is usually when we are broke)

[Azrael Turnbull]

This is a good thread, I agree. Not really sure why.

 

 

There are still more units, like Sternguard, Vanguard etc. It doesn't counter my argument. These units are simply units. You pay points for them and get what you paid for. In my honest opinion, I'd much sooner take a pure Plasma Cannon Devastator squad over the Thunderfire Cannon. Sacrifice Barrage (meh) and add a few points (and wounds) and turn those shots into str 7 AP 2.

What I'm saying is
1- I'm perfectly happy with my DA codex and don't plan to field allies at standard 2000pts game
2- I'm perfectly aware and convinced that a fully RW army can perform very well against a full bike/LS WS army.
3- the only case where WS will totally outclass us is in a case of bike strong army with other support units list.
Bike to bike we have advantages they have theirs, but when it comes to specific support units, we can't say that our Nephilims LS vengeance or Darkshroud can out class the talon or the raven or the centurions or the thunderfire.

And be sure that your 4 plasma squads will be totally wiped out after 2 turns of barrage of a single thunderfire... You'll need LOS they don't. And even if you manage to get one, 99% of the time they'll be in a piece of terrain bolstered by the tech... The AP2 is of no use against a 3+ cover save.

I've neglected the thunderfire.., I've paid it enough to know how advantageous it is

 

No argument here in regards to your points and I respect that you're still a Dark Angel at heart within 2k points; However, I have to challenge your example.

I would never fire Devastators at the Thunderfire Cannon. I’d fire at Core units and other targets of opportunity in the open. If they want to destroy my Dev’s over the space of two turns with a Thundefire Cannon, that’s fine. That’s two turns of my core units not being shot at by it.
 

If it’s in direct line of site, it will not last long against my core.

 

If it’s behind cover and using ‘Barrage’, theaccuracy diminishes. I will still prepare for being hit directly at least twice when formulating my next turn plan, and a good two hits could be 7 to 10 Tactical Marines wounded if I’m too clustered.

Here are the possibilities: firstly, both units target core infantry/Light Vehicles in the open. Plasma Cannons win, thanks to AP2. Secondly, Thunderfire fires at my Devastators, but I choose to fire at infantry/Light Vehicles in the open. Devastators will eventually die, but usually not before making up their points cost and perhaps breaking their armies back (depends on first turn and setup); meanwhile, my Core force can now be expected to overpower theirs. After two whole turns. The Thunderfire will be in trouble by the time it turns its attention to my main force.

It’s not the first of its kind (4 x Plasma Devs, Manticore, Dark Reaper Launcher thing, list goes on). I haven’t read the new Eldar codex, but the best barrage blast weapon I’ve ever played with or against is the Eldar Exarch Launcher, rerolling failed to wound and ignoring most armour saves and all cover saves. BS 5 when it can see its target. Mean and horrible, doesn’t overheat and lays waste to Marines. Most kills I’ve seen with one volley: 11 Assault Marines over two squads.

Although, Thunderfire beats Plasma Cannon’s when it comes to thrashing Orks and Hormagaunts; overheat can be a right pain and you don’t get much in return for your investment.

Tl;dr: I agree with you and fully understand how powerful the Thunderfire Cannon is, but it’s not OP and I’m not afraid of it.

[shabbadoo]

 

Azrael Turnbull, on 13 Sept 2013 - 01:04, said:

 

shabbadoo, on 12 Sept 2013 - 21:34, said:

 

imustbedreamin, on 12 Sept 2013 - 06:19, said:

so are we saying running a ravenwing only army is a dumb move (this is fun not tournament play) as you will seldom get anywhere near winning?

No, as that is not necessarily going to be the case. However, those who run a pure Ravenwing army will very much be wasting points in the form of included teleport homers which can't be used, meaning going up against a White Scars army will see you outnumbered simply due to the points efficiency of the White Scars units. We could better compare these two forces as stand-alone groups if the teleport homers were optional upgrade equipment for Ravenwing. As teleport homers are a forced purchase though, you just have to acknowledge it, accept it, and move on.

 

So, if you play against White Scars with a pure Ravenwing force, you are the underdog. White Scars have good rules, but so do the Ravenwing, and the Ravenwing can field more veterans than they can, meaning our close combat potential (the bane of bike armies) is better. so, play to you advantages, look for the mismatch (easier for us to do than for them), and you might not be as much of an underdog as you think.

Our points deficit is compensated by the gains from the Dark Shroud, Black Knights (or in 1k pints case, just a RW command squad), and if you're feeling particularly mean, the Dakka Pole.

No, there is no "compensation". "Compensation" would mean getting "something-for-nothing" (i.e underpaying for something; which is a horrible way to go about things from rules writing standpoint) from those other things you mentioned. We pay an appropriate amount for those units/wargear, so there is no "compensation" (not that there needs to be for an army that is purposely built to NOT make use of some of its wargear). So, we knowingly play at a slight disadvantage when running a full Ravenwing force. That is just the way it is. It is too bad that the teleport homer was not changed to be a locator beacon, as then Deepstriking Land Speeders could use it too.  Then there would be a use for everything in a pure Ravenwing force.

[Azrael Turnbull]

So, what you're saying is that every unit is exactly worth it's points cost and there's no such thing as cost efficiency or under costed units.

 

I don't need to waste time explaining; the Dakka Pole is example enough. If you think the points cost on that is justified, then I suggest you go and work at the Games Workshop. I here they have openings.

 

Also, if the Ravenwing are a handicap, why do they hold an acceptable standing at tournaments?