White is the New Black (Ravenwing Vs. White Scars)

[FerociousBeast]

RAVENWING vs. WHITE SCARS ROUND 3 -- PER UNIT

So what about the two basic squads, Bike Squadron versus RW Attack Squadron? I put together a couple typical, representative squads in the post above. The RWAS costs 26 points more. Let's take a look at the delta:

 

White Scars:

- +2 bikers

- +2 TL bolters

- Skilled Rider

- +1S HoW

 

Ravenwing:

- Stubborn

- Teleport homers

- Land Speeder

- Heavy bolter

- Typhoon missile launcher

 

Again, the teleport homer does nothing for the RWAS by itself, so we have to disregard it. But all the rest of it is pretty useful, particularly the heavy bolter and Typhoon missile launcher on the Land Speeder. The White Scars have nothing comparable. Unless they go with the heavy bolter on their attack bike, their max shooting range is 24", while the Land Speeder gives the RWAS a 48" shooting attack with 2 krak missiles. Very powerful!

 

The White Scars will hit harder on the charge, though, no question about it. However, keep this in mind as well: the reason White Scars hit harder is because of Hammer of Wrath. But a 9-model squad of White Scars isn't going to get all 9 bikes' bases into B2B contact very often, meaning many of those HoW hits aren't going to happen. Skilled rider will definitely help them crash through cover to get into combat, though.

 

But in the shooting phase, the Ravenwing is going to be doing much more damage with many more potential targets. They're down two bolters, but they're up a heavy bolter and 2 missile shots. Also, they will be required to combat squad out the Attack Bike and Land Speeder, so they can engage and optimize more targets in one shooting phase than the White Scars, and they have another scoring unit in the Attack Bike. Good deal.

 

On the other hand, being forced to combat squad means the RWAS is much more vulnerable to giving up first blood. So that will definitely be something to keep in mind.

 

Now let's briefly touch on Scouts. In 6th edition, you can't charge the turn you deploy or come in from reserves. So when the bikes come in from the side or rush up the field before turn one, they're going to have to rely on their guns to do their talking, not their fists. Who wins here? Clearly the Ravenwing with their superior heavy weapons. The White Scars HoW advantage won't help them a bit when they come on the field. So Scouts is better used by the Ravenwing.

 

So is all of this worth 26 points? I think it is, but opinions may differ. If you just want to turboboost your bikes until you can get them into CC, then White Scars might be your pick. If you want a more tactical unit, however, that can engage more units and more kinds of units with a higher degree of precision due to MSU, Ravenwing will get your vote.

ROUND 3 WINNER -- Ravenwing by a nose

 

One final note, as you can tell, most of my analysis is dependent upon the assumption that you're taking the Land Speeder. If you opt out, the Ravenwing lose their main advantage and the White Scars win. In a unit by unit comparison... (Remember we still haven't yet expanded the discussion to include the teleport homer or other Ravenwing units.)

[Brother dean]

Re MM Attack Bike:  First blood, check.  

However, How much is it worth to have a MMAB that doesnt constrain the rest of a squads worth of shooting...   I realize that the two specials may also be in that squad for a dedicated tank hunting squad but then the WS player is still potentially wasting bolter shots..

[FerociousBeast]

Yep, that's what I meant when I said that the RWAS can "engage and optimize" more units and more kinds of units.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

I'm not sure the MM is bad for AI.  It's worse than a HB, but compared to a TL bolter:  same range.  MM will miss 1/3 of the time and fail to wound 1/6 of the time it does hit.  But it will bypass most armor.  The bolter can hit 2 times (inside of 12"), but only wounds 50% of the time and then that is subject to a save from MEQ or better.  I'm not going to mathhammer out the two options vs MEQ/GEQ/TEQ/etc.  My point is that the MM is not bad for shooting infantry really and it does give a substantial boost to capability if you want to/need to go after something armored.  I'm usually more concerned about variation in ranges of engagement than using an AT weapon on infantry; I don't want to put a flamer in a long distance shooting squad for example.

[Retaliation]

It's less about meltas being bad against infantry than bolters being bad against tanks.

 

It's also wrong to say that an independent attack bike is straight up worse/better than the white scar equivalent. When you can avoid giving up first blood with the bike (easily enough done with outflanking) you get the benefits of an additional scoring/denial unit, a weapon that can be targeted individually (in both the good and bad sense), and forces the opponent to divert a squads attacks to kill the unit (at the cost of the parent squad's durability).

 

White scars are DIFFERENT and possibly easier, but the jury is out on whether their tricks make them out to be better than the second company.

[Master Avoghai]

I would add that you can clearly avoid 1st blood by keeping your AB in reserve... Having a mobile MM that enter in enemy's flank with a teleport homer is not what I can call "bad"... And actually it's like if you had to keep a 1/4 in your army in reserve... It's just 60pts you'll miss turn one... But 60pts that can be really annoying for your opponent the following turn.

 

It's really priceless to see the face of my opponent when I roll for my AB to flank... Because its a mix of feeling that goes from "bah! It's just a single AB" to "damn it's a mobile MM that hits on 3+ just in my back!!!"

[SvenONE]

I would add that you can clearly avoid 1st blood by keeping your AB in reserve... Having a mobile MM that enter in enemy's flank with a teleport homer is not what I can call "bad"... And actually it's like if you had to keep a 1/4 in your army in reserve... It's just 60pts you'll miss turn one... But 60pts that can be really annoying for your opponent the following turn.

 

It's really priceless to see the face of my opponent when I roll for my AB to flank... Because its a mix of feeling that goes from "bah! It's just a single AB" to "damn it's a mobile MM that hits on 3+ just in my back!!!"

 

MMAB starting in reserves for outflank IS a great advantage for both the self-preservation of first blood, and of course for where it can show up to ruin your opponent's day.  You just have to hope that something is in reasonable range.

 

But a teleport homer coming in on turn 2 (at best) isn't able to be used until turn 3.  With the low model count of a bike army, waiting for something to deep strike on turn 3 is pretty risky... not to mention it's going to show up pretty close to the table edge.  I also wouldn't call it bad, but I certainly wouldn't call it that much of an advantage.  

 

Food for though, WS (with Khan) can pull the same scout (via outflank) move, only will have the AB safely inside a squad to preserve its existence.

[Azrael Turnbull]

Maybe I'm remembering this wrong... To hold the Attack Bike in reserve, the whole unit most stay in reserve with it.

[ValourousHeart]

@ Shabbadoo...  I would like to apologize if I offended you.  That was not my intention.  I just assumed that I new what the word meant, and so was confused by your use.  I guess it ultimately comes back to weather or not one feels that the other sides cost is worth your concession.  I agree that last part could be very subjective.

 

@ Master Avoghai… I would also like to add that I find it confusing that everyone feels that the AB is a free first blood unit.  In that regard why wouldn’t people classify a land raider the same way… after all it only takes one shot from a MMAB to blow up your land raider.  So shouldn’t people be just as afraid to take one of those with first blood?

If someone would be so kind as to run the math hammer, I think you will find that the chance of a Land Raider blowing up from 1 shot from a MMAB is statistically equal with a ML killing an AB with 1 shot given that the AB will probably have some intervening cover from the ML.

Really we could go on... there really isn’t much in the game that can’t reliably be killed in a single turn by a determined foe.

Ultimately the difference between these 2 armies is player preference.  There is nothing stopping any of you from playing your RW army using the WS rules, if that is your thing, or vice versa.  Me I prefer speeders, and I feel that Sammie in his speeder outclasses both Kahn and the Jetbike.

[Liberame]

It is far easier to put two wounds on a t5 bike than it is to do 4 hullpoints on an AV14 vehicle

[SvenONE]

Maybe I'm remembering this wrong... To hold the Attack Bike in reserve, the whole unit most stay in reserve with it.

 

For C:SM/White Scars yes, but Ravenwing Combat Squad (C:DA p47) says that the AB and LS are purchased together but from then on are independent units.  So the AB (and LS for that matter) can start in reserve.  That rule IS a good thing for RW to have compared to C:SM, after all it's nice having a LS that doesn't contribute to a FOC slot.

[ValourousHeart]

It is far easier to put two wounds on a t5 bike than it is to do 4 hullpoints on an AV14 vehicle

 

"You would like to think that, wouldn't you?"

 

In my experience my 3-4 MMAB generally kill the Land Raider before any of them bites it.

In that same army the first model that tends to die is one of my 9 land speeders.

 

But considering how much havoc my speeders are wreaking upon my enemies, it is no wonder they are a high priority.

 

Whereas my MMAB are typically placed in spots where the opposing player can’t really see them… unless he comes around to my side of the table.  They have the task of killing the biggest tank / threat on the table.

[hallodx]

Such is the destiny of MSU style. You always give out FB. But this gives you more choices, and gain more tactical advantage. I'd say in such shooting meta RW actually do better against all kind of foe.

[Azrael Turnbull]

 

Maybe I'm remembering this wrong... To hold the Attack Bike in reserve, the whole unit most stay in reserve with it.

 

For C:SM/White Scars yes, but Ravenwing Combat Squad (C:DA p47) says that the AB and LS are purchased together but from then on are independent units.  So the AB (and LS for that matter) can start in reserve.  That rule IS a good thing for RW to have compared to C:SM, after all it's nice having a LS that doesn't contribute to a FOC slot.

 

Haha, that's brilliant! I'm totally going to abuse this now, thanks.

[Azrael Turnbull]

@ Shabbadoo...  I would like to apologize if I offended you.  That was not my intention.  I just assumed that I new what the word meant, and so was confused by your use.  I guess it ultimately comes back to weather or not one feels that the other sides cost is worth your concession.  I agree that last part could be very subjective.

 

@ Master Avoghai… I would also like to add that I find it confusing that everyone feels that the AB is a free first blood unit.  In that regard why wouldn’t people classify a land raider the same way… after all it only takes one shot from a MMAB to blow up your land raider.  So shouldn’t people be just as afraid to take one of those with first blood?

 

If someone would be so kind as to run the math hammer, I think you will find that the chance of a Land Raider blowing up from 1 shot from a MMAB is statistically equal with a ML killing an AB with 1 shot given that the AB will probably have some intervening cover from the ML.

 

Really we could go on... there really isn’t much in the game that can’t reliably be killed in a single turn by a determined foe.

 

Ultimately the difference between these 2 armies is player preference.  There is nothing stopping any of you from playing your RW army using the WS rules, if that is your thing, or vice versa.  Me I prefer speeders, and I feel that Sammie in his speeder outclasses both Kahn and the Jetbike.

 

 

Giving the benefit of the doubt and applying a 4+ cover save

to the AB; 5/18 chance to wound, 0 chance of death (due to T5 & 2 wounds).

With Str 10 AP 3 or better (like Vind), chance of death is still 5/18.

 

A LR that has not applied smoke being one shotted by

a MM; 5/36 chance. Exactly half the chance of wounding the AB with a 4+ cover

save.

 

It’s complicated to work out stripping the two wounds as I’d

have to apply different maths depending on how many ML’s you want firing at the

AB. One is obviously not enough.

 

However, the AB can be killed by small arms fire and will

rarely have a cover save when he’s outflanking, let alone a 4+ one. And, of

course, the LR will have probably deployed smoke on turn 2 and you have no

control over when you’ll turn up.

 

Unless I am pouring 4 or 5 half range melta dice, or it is a

Redeemer variant, I will stick to my tactic of ignoring the Land Raider entirely.

Better to hit the side armour of a squishier tank. You can even assault it with

Krak grenades should you fail.

 

 

 

[facmanpob]

Let's face it, it is such a complicated problem to calculate that it's not worth it in the end.... I mean, how do you factor in the size differential between an attack bike and a Land Raider? Quite often, my attack bikes don't get shot at until after they have completed their primary mission because my opponent literally was not able to see them as they were hiding behind los-blocking terrain..... Straight up mathhammer can only take us so far.....

[Brother dean]

 

However, the AB can be killed by small arms fire and will

rarely have a cover save when he’s outflanking, let alone a 4+ one. And, of

course, the LR will have probably deployed smoke on turn 2 and you have no

control over when you’ll turn up.

It moved at combat speed when he outflanked onto the table right?  It is a Bike right?  It automatically has a 5+ cover?  Am I missing something in Outflank?

[Azrael Turnbull]

 

 

However, the AB can be killed by small arms fire and will

rarely have a cover save when he’s outflanking, let alone a 4+ one. And, of

course, the LR will have probably deployed smoke on turn 2 and you have no

control over when you’ll turn up.

It moved at combat speed when he outflanked onto the table right?  It is a Bike right?  It automatically has a 5+ cover?  Am I missing something in Outflank?

 

It did not move at 'combat speed'. It only has to move. It does automatically get a 5+ cover save, but not a 4+ cover save. I was simply saying that the maths I used will be worse off for the bike in most situations as he will be unlikely to receive a 4+ cover save.

 

In hindsight, I wonder why I even used a 4+ cover save in the example...

[Brother dean]

Cover Supa speeder?

 

Kinda what I was wondering too....

[ValourousHeart]

@ Azrael Turnbull,
 

You used a 4+ cover save because I told you to use intervening cover.  You just move up, zig-zag, ducking from cover to cover till you have a shot.  The situation I was invisioning I wasn't outflanking, I was using my scout move to get out of LOS with terrain on a flank.  If you can't find any cover when you are outflanking then you probably do not have enough terrain on the board.

 

If a player can not figure out how to get from point A to point B in a path other than a straight line, then yes they will always give up first blood with an AB.

 

I presume people are pretty smart.  I figure that if the plan was for the MMABs to kill the Land Raider, then they would take precautions to better facilitate those units achieving that goal.

 

Parking that AB in front of a tactical squad doesn’t really facilitate the goal of surviving long enough to kill the Land Raider.

 

The attack bike takes up as much room as 3 standard marines in B2B.  Finding better than a 5+ cover save or getting completely out of LOS shouldn’t be that hard… unless you play on a table that has little to no terrain.

[Azrael Turnbull]

@ Azrael Turnbull,

 

You used a 4+ cover save because I told you to use intervening cover.  You just move up, zig-zag, ducking from cover to cover till you have a shot.  The situation I was invisioning I wasn't outflanking, I was using my scout move to get out of LOS with terrain on a flank.  If you can't find any cover when you are outflanking then you probably do not have enough terrain on the board.

 

If a player can not figure out how to get from point A to point B in a path other than a straight line, then yes they will always give up first blood with an AB.

 

I presume people are pretty smart.  I figure that if the plan was for the MMABs to kill the Land Raider, then they would take precautions to better facilitate those units achieving that goal.

 

Parking that AB in front of a tactical squad doesn’t really facilitate the goal of surviving long enough to kill the Land Raider.

 

The attack bike takes up as much room as 3 standard marines in B2B.  Finding better than a 5+ cover save or getting completely out of LOS shouldn’t be that hard… unless you play on a table that has little to no terrain.

 

24" bubble at least from every Tactical Squad (and I usually take at least 4 in Greenwing) isn't easy to avoid and leave you in a suitable firing position. and when you do fire, chances are you'll fail as per the maths. For reliable destruction of the Raider, you'd need multiple shots, meaning more units to hide.

 

And assuming your opponent is 'smart' as well, he's not going to leave his Land Raider where one AB can get within 12" for free. Seriously, just leave the Land Raider. the contents are not going to make up their points the first time they come out and you can kill them all in your next turn.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Having read through the new Codex...a full SM Bike/Speeder army is weaker than a full RW army. Even with the inclusion of relevant fliers. Purely because we have more options and better units (Darkshroud, BK, even the LSV can be effective) and Sammael is better than Khan. And this is without the Dakka pole, which if you add becomes even better.

 

And when you start adding on other option, the only thing we can't best unit per unit is the Dev Centurions, which we can destroy using other methods.

[Spaniard]

Maybe i missed a post but it seems to me that everyone is forgetting the one unit that the white scars dont have. BLACK KNIGHTS. Personnaly i think there the most kick as unit in the whole 40k game. I tend to run 3 in the command squad with the the dakka banner and another squad of 6-7 knights, points permitting. Those plamsa talons will tear into any unit the white scars throw at us with ease.

[Azrael Turnbull]

The last two posts made me smile. You'd think that one of you two might have checked a four page thread before posting something like that.

 

Sirs, you have not missed a post. You have missed many posts. :p

[Augustus]

I would kill for BL fiction where both appear.