Deathwing Supplement: The wish list.

[[TA]Typher]

Hi guys,

 

I was thinking about these supplements that have been coming out and the strengths and weaknesses of our Codex. I love the idea of supplements even though they are an addition money sink. As it stands now I think we have a pretty good dex when if comes to Power armor list, Ravenwing and mixed wing. I don't want to play C:SM, but we should be on par. IMO a pure Deathwing list is really sub-par in todays Meta. Cheap ranged spam and the introduction of new unit and weapons threaten a DW list like never before. dirt cheap firewarriors, rending eldar, multiple shot Ap2 blast Wraithknight spam, more monstrous creatures and now graviton guns are just a few new of the things I'm talking about. Despite the addition of new rules that the DW received they really haven't kept up to the changes in the game. Don't get me wrong DW isn't horrible and I'm not despairing, but they do much better when used in a mixed wing. In fact I love the DW and refuse (because I'm a stubborn git) to play anything else. I'm not a flavor of the month or a cheesy power gamer guy. This isn't a pity party thread, just wanted to float some ideas and hopefully hear some ideas from you guys too.

 

 

Anyway here are a few of my scattered random musings..

 

*Assault Term cost Vs rules benefit

 

-Reduction in points for Terms with only assault weapons. Those specific terms are paying for abilities that they can't use.

- As it stands now we pay 20 more points per unit for DWA, Vengeful strike and Split fire. I understand that it's roughly 4 points per model, but everything adds up.

 

* Bringing Apothecaries in line with C:SM

 

-A DA Apoth should have an actual melee weapon. I find it bad form to give a Apoth in C:SM a bolt pistol and melee weapon and snub C:DA. This really needs to be fixed regardless of an supplements. Even using the DW Banner and a apoth the SoF is still better.

 

-Having a rule that lets you reroll the banners FNP roll once or twice per turn if you have a apoth and a the banner in your command squad would be awesome . Sure it would be a point sink, but it would be a cool option.

 

 

* Better Wargear options

 

-A cheaper Standard of Fortitude for a pure DW build. Having to take a non-scoring unit with such a lower model count army, just to have a chance to survive some of the amazing amounts of massed fire that 6th edition has brought about is really painfull. Against armies like Dark Eldar, Tau Eldar and Guard being tabled becomes a realistic possibility due to just the volume of fire vs the lack of bodies.

 

-Look at Foe-Smiter. Who takes that in a List? For it's cost it really isn't worth it. Then compare that to The Primarchs Wrath in C:SM Both are ap4 and mastercrafted, but TPW is salvo 3/5 with Shred AND for the exact same cost. golly gee?! Having a IC shooting precision shots with that would rock. How was the value for this calculated? With both the codex only various flavors of the same thing the two weapons should be on par with each other. Sadly they are not.

 

-Items like the Monster Slayer of Caliban and Shroud of Heroes are subpar. Having a sword that is so random it should be in the Ork codex is embarrassing.

The Shroud looks like it has potential on paper, paying 50 points for FNP just isn't worth it. I won't address the shrouded rule, because if your IC in not in a unit you are doing it wrong. I would have preferred Eternal warrior of a similar useful ability for a high point cost item like this.

 

-With the above said, having new and unique items that complement the DW would actually be my preference.Item that helps with DS Scatter? A item that allowed a unit to do a sweeping advance? I dunno what those would be, but maybe you guys have some ideas.

 

*Better support options

 

-In tourneys or matches that disallow forgeworld having any sort of anti-air is wishful thinking for a DW list. Having a Skyfire/Interceptor Dread or upgrade for a heavy weapon in the supplement would be nice. Without Forgeworld We are left with the less predictable autocannon dread or a prescience CML.

 

*Better playability options

 

-Having a command Squad that really isn't more deadly than a troop unit shouldn't be non-scoring (It's actually less killy with a apoth in it). Besides the ability of a banner what is the difference between the two? I'd understand a DWK unit not being scoring, but a command squad should be. This would help with some of the miss-matches that the new dexes are making. If you've played a DW list against armies that can easily field 6 scoring units relatively cheap you'll know what I'm talking about. Missions with multiple objects because very hard to win.

 

*A resurgance of DW Chaplains.

 

-As it stands now a Librarian is just superior in a DW list.

Sure the Chap has 1 more W/I/A and lets you reroll misses in the FIRST round of melee, but a Lib can let anyone within 12" reroll hits in melee AND shooting EVERY round, gives additional protection vs psykers and can cause insta-Death all for cheaper than a IC. If you play DW those points are important.

 

-Cheaper chaplains or additional rules that complement the DW are sorely needed. I miss my fluffy chaplain leading my DW.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway those are my rambles. I'm not complaining, I'm a DW player.. I'll play them no matter what. I don't think my ideas are necessarily the best or greatest, just some random thoughts. I don't think we should have all these idea, because that would most likely tip the scale too far in the other direction. But with the exception of the apothecary topic, none of these things are really a must have, but given just one or two of these things would dramatically help the DW.

 

Anyone have any other ideas? Like I said before I'm talking about a pure DW list only, not a mixed wing. Even having a ruling that limits any addition rules/items to only a pure DW for would be ok if it would toss a non-DW list out of balance.

 

Any pure DW players have any ideas or thoughts? Besides myself and Elphilo I'm not sure who else is a DW purist here.

[Master Avoghai]

Like I often say : the main problem of the termis is the core game and GW's strange autolimitation when it comes to profile.

 

- 40k is a game base on D6 : to introduce the nuance termi would need, it'd be better to use d10. That way, you could reflect the superiority of the termi by hitting on 6+ when shooting. while standard marines hit on 7+, etc etc. that would really create a nice difference. Unfortunately, GW sticks to d6, so we need to accept that termis remain not as good as they should.

 

- autolimitation of WS : I've NEVER understood WHY, though having a WS from 1 to 10, GW always use WS between 3-5...

 

Why not considering that 5 could be the medium WS (guardians, imperial guard...)

6 could be SM and orks

7 could be termis, captain, banshees

8 could be chapter master, gene stealers...

9 could be khorne daemons...

 

Here again it would introduce a slight nuance when it comes to CC...

 

 

But honestly, looking to balance the termis in the current meta is vain...

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

we don't need a Deathwing supplement...if they will grace our Codex with a supplement it is better a Consecrator or Angels of Absolution! I'd rather see an expansion of the 2 most interesting chapters in the Unforgiven than an expansion on our core wings.

 

Why those two? One has awesome relics and cool stuff like that, the other does not feel the shame, so how does that play out? Hence why I would rather see those than DW/RW

[[TA]Typher]

I agree Avoghai a D10 system would give

More options, but at the end of the day it isn't what GW can reasonably do. They can however make minor changes that make all codexes more balanced and competitive. I hardly think it's vain to wish for that.

 

I can also see the desire for some people to have a successor chapter supplemental but in all fairness having a dymanic DA book with a multitude of balanced options would give just much flexability to create your own off shoot chapter without having the rest of us alienated.

[Onisuzume]

GW will never switch to a D10 system. Not for the main games anyhow.

 

That said, there aren't many things on my wishlist for a DA supplement.

Just a good AA option (MORTIS DAMMIT!).

[Master Avoghai]

I disagree on some points that would need evolution

 

- the chaplain : lots of players here prefer the chaplain over the Libby as the re-roll is automatic and won't see the chaplain burn his brain. Added to that, the chappy is a better fighter and is a good candidate for mass of redemption. Maybe your playstyle is more made for Libby. Some prefer the chappy. It's a sign its balanced.

 

- the lack of anti air : DW is the part of our force that suffer the less of the air support due to their armor so a DW codex wouldn't need a SPECIFIC anti air buff

[facmanpob]

I agree with Bohemond, we don't need a Deathwing supplement, or a Ravenwing one for that matter.

 

IF we need a supplement at all, it would be for the successor chapters, to allow them things like alternative Masters of the 1st and 2nd Companies.

[Master Avoghai]

And alternative chapter master because I've never heard that Lion El Jonson had 6 heads, each with a Lion helm... :lol:

[facmanpob]

And alternative chapter master because I've never heard that Lion El Jonson had 6 heads, each with a Lion helm...

That would make him a hydra, and therefore an operative of the Alpha Legion.......

[Brother Tyler]

On the issue of a Deathwing Supplement, I don't think that will ever happen (nor is it in any way necessary). The best the Unforgiven might see would be supplements for Successors, but that would only happen if there were a market large enough. Catering to a handful of niche players wouldn't be financially sound for GW.

 

As for the limitations of the d6 system and an alternative, it would be far easier to use a d12 system than to convert to a d10 system.

[elphilo]

Typher I like some of the stuff you've come up with. And you hit the nail on the head with some of the relics we have in comparison to the relics the SM get. But we can't dwell on that (for too long ). The problem with Deathwing doesn't have anything to do with a need for a supplement. The problem lies with the game itself. As was said, in the age of cheap spammable high firepower troops, Terminators have fallen by the wayside. The only real way to fix them is to change the rules for Terminators in general, like offering them a reroll on failed saves. To show just how tough the unit is. But that opens up a lot of new balance issues.

I honestly don't know how to fix Terminators without making them too overpowered. But I'm in the same boat as you, its getting old and needs to be changed.

edit: ack! The forum's Machine spirit is displeased with my post!

[Master Sheol]

The Successor supplement is not gonna happen... UM have hundreds of successore and you play them in the count as way...

 

The only thing we would need in DA codex to deal with successors is a Grand Master entry that can be kitted out to represent the Chapter Master, 1st company Master or 2nd company Master if a DA successor Chapter...

 

If we will ever see supplements for DA they will be about RW and DW but I think that only the Fallen supplement for CSM to make playable again Cypher will see the light...

[Piousservant]

 

I don't see us getting any supplements, but as ideas for how to improve DW those are some good ideas. It's a shame that DW struggle so much, particularly as what seemed to be an attempt to produce fairly middle ground codexes disappeared after the first two (Chaos/DA) and it seems like we've still got the same old codex creep and us DA being in the wrong place in that cycle (again).

 

Anyways, to my mind the biggest point is that TDA needs to be more survivable than it is in practice (maybe it's just me... quite commonly rolling 5 ones and basically losing 1/5 of my entire army in a single turn...). I've not crunched any numbers, so these are just some spur of the moment thoughts. What about making the invunerable save a 4++ (not that it would help me with my rolling of ones :P)? It would also lessen the relative value of TH/SS which I don't think is a bad thing, particularly if it makes tactical terminators more appealing. Or how about native FNP? Apoth/SoF could provide improved FNP on top?

 

Thinking about what has been said about the limitations of the D6 system, how does a rerollable 2+ work out? Or why not work it like high level BS and have a 2+ followed by a 5+ if you fail or something along those lines? Or does that go too far the other way?

[xnickbaranx]

I came looking to see if there was a thread on this because I was pondering "what if there was a DA Supplement, what would it be?" today. I read through all the Successors to see which ones had something inspiring that was Supplement worthy.

 

Sadly, my beloved Angels of Absolution, nor the other two "traditional" Unforgiven made the cut.

 

The only two I could see getting Supplements would be Consecrators (most likely with their sacred old tech) and Disciples of Caliban (with their untainted gene-seed being somewhat interesting).

 

I'd love to see the Angels of Absolution get a Supplement but know its a "never gonna happen" proposition.

[Elodin]

I would generally prefer to see a sucessor supplament rather than a DW one. Personally I think it'd be fun to see Guardians of the Covenant just because of how cool they look, but that's just me.

Anyway, one thing I would like to see if DW gets a supplament would be allowing Deathwing Knights to charge on the turn they Deep Strike. Or maybe something fun like causing a shockwave 2D6 Inches when they Deep Strike that causes a S3 AP - hit on everything within range from where they landed.

[TheForgottenAngel]

We need a Fallen Supplement...

[shortysl]

On the issue of a Deathwing Supplement, I don't think that will ever happen (nor is it in any way necessary). The best the Unforgiven might see would be supplements for Successors, but that would only happen if there were a market large enough. Catering to a handful of niche players wouldn't be financially sound for GW.

 

As for the limitations of the d6 system and an alternative, it would be far easier to use a d12 system than to convert to a d10 system.

I vote our Terminators regain their old '3+ Save on 2d6' roll O:-)

[Onisuzume]

 

 

On the issue of a Deathwing Supplement, I don't think that will ever happen (nor is it in any way necessary). The best the Unforgiven might see would be supplements for Successors, but that would only happen if there were a market large enough. Catering to a handful of niche players wouldn't be financially sound for GW.

 

As for the limitations of the d6 system and an alternative, it would be far easier to use a d12 system than to convert to a d10 system.

I vote our Terminators regain their old '3+ Save on 2d6' roll O:-)

 

 

Well, it'd mean giving all weapons an ASM instead of the AP thingy to balance things out again.

[Master Avoghai]

The funny thing is that GW removed saves and BS modifiers to simplify and accelerate the game...

That's why we have cover saves...

 

But now we have weapons that have cover saves modifiers

 

The more the things change the more they stay the same...

[Chaplain Killmer]

Yeah but things changed a lot since the 2nd edition. And the reduction of cover saves was only a matter of time since every single army was including an aegis defense line. Maybe we should not forget that terminators are for the first time since the 3rd edition worthy options to take in all their loadouts (5th was already good to hammernators).

[martink]

Improvements? Via Deathwing supplement?:) Only Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts and DW terminators without allies!

 

Belial (or Company Master/Chaplain/Librarian in terminator armour): S5 + T5. Libby have BS5 too.

 

Belial trait: units deploying via the Deathwing Assault don't count toward the limit of units you are allowed to keep in Reserves...

 

Int. Chaplain trait: all units have Fear rule

 

Librarian: all units have Adamantium Will rule

 

DW Sergeant: WS5, Blade of Caliban (+1S, AP3, Rending + Defensive stance = no attacks but save reroll)

 

DW Heavy weapons: Heavy Flamer + Plasma Cannon: Soul Blaze, Assault Cannon: Interceptor, CML: add flakk missile

 

DW Lightning Claws: +1S, AP3, Shred

 

Mortis Dreadnought (FW dreadnought): add following - Split Fire (each weapon can shoot at a different target for BS3) & Tank Hunter rule

 

Land Raiders: upgrade via techmarine (Chronus similarity) = BS5, 5++ Invul save:)

[[TA]Typher]

;

Improvements? Via Deathwing supplement?:) Only Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts and DW terminators without allies!

 

Belial (or Company Master/Chaplain/Librarian in terminator armour): S5 + T5. Libby have BS5 too.

T5 would help, but I really think that Belial needs Eternal warrior instead. It would fit better as he's probably the next DA Chapter master and gives him better survivability. Instead Sammuel has EW, which he really doesn't need with T5.

 

Belial trait: units deploying via the Deathwing Assault don't count toward the limit of units you are allowed to keep in Reserves...

This would help. The fact that you could DS on turn 2 alone would dramatically help a pure DW list. Giving them the ability to strike, hit hard and hopefully have the game end before they are worn down. This was the case before and helped the DW be semi-competitive.

 

Int. Chaplain trait: all units have Fear rule

Maybe not ALL units. The chaplains unit would be enough. I would prefer making them a little cheaper.

 

Librarian: all units have Adamantium Will rule

This would be ok, but our libs now are pretty amazing and really cheap.

 

DW Sergeant: WS5, Blade of Caliban (+1S, AP3, Rending + Defensive stance = no attacks but save reroll)

Sounds cool, but I'd rather just have the option to give them TH/SS or LC again. The power sword is fairly useless compared to the other options.

 

DW Heavy weapons: Heavy Flamer + Plasma Cannon: Soul Blaze, Assault Cannon: Interceptor, CML: add flakk missile

All this sounds awesome, but I probably wouldn't go so far. Heavy Flamers now are amazing. Two HF in a a ten man unit with Belial can guarantee that one (or two using splitfire if they mistakenly deploy close enough) units get butchered. Soul blaze seems overkill.

 

AC with interceptor sounds cool. Even without skyfire the chance of it hitting something would help and hopefully help deter flyers.

 

Flak on CMLs is a no-brainer. I don't know why this isn't an option now.

 

DW Lightning Claws: +1S, AP3, Shred

Hmmm. Do any of you guys give your Terms LC? I never seem to. The other two options are always much more appealing. I mean PF/SB has more versatility. TH/SS can guarantee that you kill things. LC always seem to be subpar even with the extra attack.

 

Addint +1S would be ok... but I think making them AP2 on the turn they charge would be good too.

 

Mortis Dreadnought (FW dreadnought): add following - Split Fire (each weapon can shoot at a different target for BS3) & Tank Hunter rule

Having a real reason to field a dread would be great. As it stands now not many people use them. With only AV12 and lack of real killiness compared to a unit of terms they seem to have fallen to the wayside.

 

I don't know why they didn't just give C:DA a mortis dread with skyfire. Maybe they didn't want to compete with forge world.. I dunno. But it's something we need and should have been in the codex.

 

Land Raiders: upgrade via techmarine (Chronus similarity) = BS5, 5++ Invul save:)

Techmarines aren't in the DW. the inner circle doesn't trust them and they can never reach the ranks of the DW. After reading "ravenwing" and how some of the DA reach the DW I guess Techmarines would be killed if they found out about the fallen instead of elevated to the DW.

 

Maybe add a DW driver type character?

 

I like the ideas. Thanks for the input.

[rover]

 

Belial trait: units deploying via the Deathwing Assault don't count toward the limit of units you are allowed to keep in Reserves...

 

This would fix most of the issues with pure DW tbh. I can't see the point in giving DW new special rules such as Deathwing Assault that we can't use to full extent.

[march10k]

Even though I stick with the mother chapter of the first legion, I would wholeheartedly support a supplement for a somewhat divergent "successor."  Unfortunately, my impression is that the difference between the various chapters of the Unforgiven is...paint.  But if they made one truly different, perhaps by taking away the RW/DW equivalents and giving them something in return, like better veterans, attack bike squadrons, and a favored enemy, plus alternate relic wargear and command traits...I'd love it!

 

As for reducing the cost of assault terminators...hell, they just now finally got around to making tactical terminators less terrible (who in his right mind would have fielded them in 4th and 5th?), and now we want a discount when we're not taking advantage of the DW traits that assault terminators don't get good value from?  C'mon, man!  The complaint that DW are several points more expensive than C:UM terminators is over a decade old, it has nothing to do with split fire, vengeance strike, and all the new goodies that were designed to coax us into thinking long and hard about shooty versus assault termies.  IMNSHO, two things justify the 20 point surcharge on an unforgiven terminator squad, and neither of them is new.  First, the ability to take a heavy weapon on an assault terminator squad.  The sight of a thundernator with a CML makes other marine players green with envy.  Second, the ability to make them scoring. Both of these abilities have been around for as long as our terminators have been more expensive.

 

I would be wiling to go along with bringing our terminators in line with C:UM points costs...but if that were to happen, then of course we'd be buying the currently-included upgrades a la carte.  And if you price out their scoring status, ability to mix tactical and assault terminators, DWA, vengeance strike, and so on, you're going to come up with a hell of a lot more than 4 points per model, I promise you that!  You might then be able to shave a few points by skipping DWA and Vengeance Strike if you're taking a pure DW footslogging list, but not more than 5 points per squad, I bet, since you'll still be paying for scoring and mixed squads.  Meanwhile, the guy who has mixed mechanized and DWA army that's taking advantage of ALL of the DW rules will get hit with a 10-15 point per squad penalty over the current package deal.  What's more, you'd have to lock yourself in (taking or leaving DWA, for example) at the list design phase, sacrificing a lot of flexibility in the quest to shave a few points (while forcing your battle brothers to pay more).

 

Honestly, the special rules that our terminators enjoy, unlike in previous editions, fully justify the points premium.

 

If I were to ask for anything in a Deathwing Supplement, it would be for a 0-1 heavy choice of basically a devastator squad in TDA...double the usual allowance of heavy weapons in exchange for giving up scoring status.  Ten terminators with four CMLs would make a lovely support-by-fire element for a footslogging deathwing army.  Add a TDA librarian to twinlink their shooting, and you've got a decent (average 3 S8 hits) anti-air unit.  That and contemptor dreadnoughts and FW land raider variants.

[MadMek83]

If any Suppliment we get, its most likely Inner Circle Suppliment with DW and RW combined together. I don't see us getting more than one Suppliment really. Lets face it, Dark Angels aren't GW's priorty, not by a longshot. However I do wish RW or DW suppliments or actual Successor suppliments. But I kinda like idea  march10K's idea of heavy support TRerminator unit. Of course ir might be taken line of GK paladins; 2 heavy weapon's per 5 men and optional heavy weapon CML, Plasma cannon / assault cannon for the IC. Good ol' psycannon spam, but with twist of Green and alot vengeance.

 

I'd love to take Deathwing Exterminatus unit: 5 Exterminatus Terminators with full terminator / special issue wargear selection + 2 Heavy weapons for 5 men and Master of Extermination would get option for additional CML, Assault Cannon / Plasma Cannon. 5 Terminatos DW assault with 3 assault cannons.... *drools*