Codex Space Marines: A Chaos Perspective

[minionboy]

So I'm sure my opinion may be unpopular, especially with the amount of complaining that has been going on here this last week, but I'll share it with you guys anyways, because I still love you.  Ultimately, I don't find anything crazy good about the new marine book.  There are some interesting options, and Chapter Tactics for a few different chapters might be interesting, but ultimately, so what?  A lot of what's good about Space Marines are limited to single models or units, or are only good with specific Chapter Tactics, which cannot be mixed.

 

I've already been fortunate enough to play a few games against the new Marine book and frankly, I'm not impressed.

 

My whole write up is here for people interested: http://www.thediceabide.com/2013/09/codex-space-marines-a-chaos-marine-perspective/

 

In the end, we should just carry on and kill the loyalist scum like always.  Hell, if Marines become more popular, it only makes us more powerful!  Things like VOTLW might actually be worth taking!  :)

[the jeske]

 

Other than that, a Chapter Master can be geared to be quite a fighty

character, better than our Chaos Lords in many situations, though still

falls a bit short of Abaddon.

Was this a joke ?

[Noctus Cornix]

Why exactly would it be a joke?

[minionboy]

Why exactly would it be a joke?

 

Glad I'm no the only one confused at that...

[Trevak Dal]

Knowing what I know of Jeske's posts, it will likely reference Abaddon's Landraider price point, his inability to affect a chaos army on the whole as a Chaptermaster probably can, and lack of a specific retinue he can unlock free of the FOC, and probably "CHosen as troops don't count anyways" or some such thing.

 

Which Chosen as troops should be in the default book...and should indeed be what normal CSMs have as options...at normal CSM prices...but I digress.

[Noctus Cornix]

We should have this. We should have that.

 

Point still remains that the Space Marines Codex is still about the same it was in the last edition And you can wade a Blind Axe Daemon Prince trough a Centurion Squad just as easily as a Terminator Squad. It makes no difference.

[minionboy]

Knowing what I know of Jeske's posts, it will likely reference Abaddon's Landraider price point, his inability to affect a chaos army on the whole as a Chaptermaster probably can, and lack of a specific retinue he can unlock free of the FOC, and probably "CHosen as troops don't count anyways" or some such thing.

 

Which Chosen as troops should be in the default book...and should indeed be what normal CSMs have as options...at normal CSM prices...but I digress.

 

Well, I was talking about combat effectiveness in what Jeske responded to.  I think you would still be hard pressed to make a fighty chapter master that is anywhere as good as Abaddon.  What I wasn't referring to was the effect that the Chapter Master has on the rest of the army.

 

We should have this. We should have that.

 

Point still remains that the Space Marines Codex is still about the same it was in the last edition And you can wade a Blind Axe Daemon Prince trough a Centurion Squad just as easily as a Terminator Squad. It makes no difference.

 

Yep, I agree 100%, which was most of my point.  People are going overboard about XYZ, but really, marines are about the same, and honestly, nothing really over the top.

[Iron_Within]

Having seen a game of Ultramarines vs Tau today I'm not worried about facing off against Marines. They have no 'Wow!' units. A lot of their units are very decent due to ATSNKF etc. however they don't have a hard counter to a Helldrake, Plague Marines simply need to avoid the bikes (that the aforementioned Helldrake will kill in one turn), Noise marines with Blastmasters as always will laugh uproariously at the Marines with their power armour and Chaos Space Marines/Bikers will rip them a new one if they make it into combat with them (assuming they are geared for it).

 

My objection, my only objection to the SM codex was the inclusion of Chapter Tactics and the Chaos Marines not getting them. We have as much character and tactical doctrines as the loyalist scum, moreso, and thus we deserve to have such character included

[Sception]

I have no complaints about the sm book. It looks the way I'd want it to, in terms of power, options, etc. My complaints are all about the csm book. Some of them are more apparant now that we have sm as a comparison, but the complaints are the same - lack of free skills, optional skills overpriced, lack of legion rules, weird balance with a few options overpowered and to many weak, no thought put into translation of old options into the new edition, saddled with forced challenges while our characters are generally lackluster in melee outside of a few builds, saddled with expensive, infantry speed melee units with no good delivery methods, little to no synegy, whether internally or with allies, baffling and arbitrary removal of homing beacons... I could go on for a while, but this is all old stuff, so whatev.

[Noctus Cornix]

Except that Legion rules make no sense whatsoever in terms of playing a Chaos army when the point of a Chaos army is to be a melting pot of different heretics, renegades, and warriors. Legion Rules will simply abolish the flexibility of the Chaos Codex and would in most respects screw with a lot of fluff. We have our four options, the Chaos Gods, and you can use whichever one you want however you choose, or not at all.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Except that Legion rules make no sense whatsoever in terms of playing a Chaos army when the point of a Chaos army is to be a melting pot of different heretics, renegades, and warriors. Legion Rules will simply abolish the flexibility of the Chaos Codex and would in most respects screw with a lot of fluff. We have our four options, the Chaos Gods, and you can use whichever one you want however you choose, or not at all.

I think if you asked, over 75% of chaos players would be happy to ditch the "flexibility" if they got the ability to field Chaos MARINES in a way that portrayed more then the black legion or the death guard.

[Noctus Cornix]

And they are entitled to their opinions, which I respect. It matters not to me.

[the jeske]

 

Why exactly would it be a joke?

 

Glad I'm no the only one confused at that...

I don't get a lot of  the review then , if it wasn't ment as a joke/sarcasm in some parts .

If a chapter master can be a better melee hq , then a lord , then he can't be worse then abadon , because abadon is a horrible melee HQ . If the chapter master is called pricy at his 400-450pts cost [not saying he is not , but most melee units cost like that] then abadon , who is suppose to be better, costs around 600pts .

 

HQ section is don't bad , no word about khan and his scout interaction with transported units . There is a whole paragraph on how shoty centurions are bad/not good , because of lack of inv , when they get the same save oblits get by being in cover and while it is true that the grav guns are 24" range , those are not MM . the centurions can move and the utility that grav guns give is huge.

 

 

 

 

 

Except that Legion rules make no sense whatsoever in terms of playing a

Chaos army when the point of a Chaos army is to be a melting pot of

different heretics, renegades, and warriors. Legion Rules will simply

abolish the flexibility of the Chaos Codex and would in most respects

screw with a lot of fluff. We have our four options, the Chaos Gods, and

you can use whichever one you want however you choose, or not at all.

:D man those chaos lists I see are so different and flexbile .

 

Example AL list I used back in 3.5 days.

two infiltration hQs

2x5 las plas inf

2x8 dual plas inf

3x6 havocks tank hunter inf

 

WB list

apostol

1x8 letters

3x6 netts

2x5 las plas

1x3 oblits

1x6 havocks AC

 

EC

syren prince

1x6 dual plas inf NM

5x6 netts

 

3 lists different game play.

 

 

chaos lists today AL/WB/NL/BL everything

 

 

HQ

lord

pms or cultists

helldrakes

oblits or havocks

[Dallas Drake]

Legion rules would be fine if everyone wanted to play one of the Legions. I play my own warband, so therefore I'm personally happy with marks & icons. I think Legion units would have to be handled carefully. It would need to be a large complicated codex. That said I totally understand why people want this.

 

Anyway, on topic: I'm not panicked by the new SM book. They're good, but not OP. That said, grav weapons seem unnecessary and from what I've seen White Scars bikes seem a bit nasty. I need to read the codex more but no complaints from me (yet).

 

Dallas

[Defiant]

Dont forget noctus,the book is called Codex: Chaos SPACE MARINES, not Codex :Chaos.

[Emperors Immortals]

I like your article, its a comprehensive and quick summary. Would you consider an article on possible SM combos we might see? (like RG armies w/ allied IF bolter StormScouts? etc.). Ill be happy running lists wuth it for a long time.

 

And legion rules would be ludicrously easy to introduce, as these new chapter tactics demonstrate. Cap legion options and introduce a page of generic traits/wargear to use ( ie WE must purchase MoK, marks affect basic daemon weapon options like before etc.). People mostly want role play options anyway.

[Noctus Cornix]

Say what you will but an inherent imbalance in the codex would not be remedied by 'Legion Rules'.

 

Edit: An inherent imbalance that isn't nearly as bad as many like to make it out to be, I might add.

[Emperors Immortals]

Say what you will but an inherent imbalance in the codex would not be remedied by 'Legion Rules'.

Precisly. BUT that is two different concepts. We can have an unbalanced codex with difficult unit synegy OR we can have unbalanced codex with difficult unit synergy with LEGION FLAVOUR.

 

I know which I want.......

[Noctus Cornix]

Want and get are two different things.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Say what you will but an inherent imbalance in the codex would not be remedied by 'Legion Rules'.

Precisly. BUT that is two different concepts. We can have an unbalanced codex with difficult unit synegy OR we can have unbalanced codex with difficult unit synergy with LEGION FLAVOUR.

 

I know which I want.......

You can take a piece of chicken with bacteria in it and cover it in all the hickory smoke BBQ sauce you want. But at the end of the day, you still ate a piece of chicken with bacteria in it.

[Emperors Immortals]

 

 

 

 

Say what you will but an inherent imbalance in the codex would not be remedied by 'Legion Rules'.

Precisly. BUT that is two different concepts. We can have an unbalanced codex with difficult unit synegy OR we can have unbalanced codex with difficult unit synergy with LEGION FLAVOUR.

 

I know which I want.......

You can take a piece of chicken with bacteria in it and cover it in all the hickory smoke BBQ sauce you want. But at the end of the day, you still ate a piece of chicken with bacteria in it.

 

True, but I used to be a saucier before the long war broke out, and I can tell you that poison is easier to swallow with a good covering of hot sauce.

[A D-B]

I'm not at all worried, annoyed, or jealous of the so-called "power level", or any perceived disparity. Hell, no.

 

I'm jealous as heck of all their army-building options, though. The Horus Heresy rulebooks are the gold medal in terms of hugely varied Marine lists with incredible options on offer, but the new Marine codex is a thing of beauty in that regard, too. So many interestingly ruled characters that unlock new ways to build an army, so many nice little variant rules and different armament options. One thing I loved about writing an HH list was how fun it was, and how varied you could be. I feel the same about the new Space Marines, too. I know you can do the same with our characters, but we have way fewer of them, and they do less dynamic things.

 

But most of all, I'm jealous of the new Tactical Squad's legs. Just as I was jealous of the Space Wolf legs before them, and the Blood Angel legs before those. I can't take Cultists in my army because I just can't paint with enough speed to make them viable. I don't like taking Chaos Marines because of the models' legs. If I use loyalist legs, they look too 'clean' to me, to be Chaos Marines. If I pimp them out with Forge World bling, I have awesome top halves that match the new Chaos model aesthetic, and... less modern / older model appearances from the waist down, which doesn't sit right with what I want, either. A good painter can weather/model/paint/whatever the cleaner parts to look Chaosy. I, however, am not that guy.

 

I've always been jealous of how absolutely rad TH/SS Terminators look, but that's a years-old grudge, now.

[Noctus Cornix]

The point still stands as this. The Space Marines Codex isn't special. Its as flexible as it used to be but on a level of difficulty, we can still handle them with virtually no problem. This isn't about Chapter rules or Legion rules and whether you think they would be good or not is irrelevant. The topic is about tackling this new opponent, which I say is nothing different than it was before. Plain and simple.

[Tenebris]

Please people, have a thorough read of both books, really do read them and than compare the Army List entries between the two, include the wargear options and the special characters. Our book falls short in so many ways compared to the Space Marines that it all looks like a cruel joke. A whelp of a librarian outclasses the most powerful mortal sorcerer bar Eldrad in the universe, the basic tactical squad has so many weapon and delivery options that it can work well as both, an alpha strike unit as well as a standard troop option. The vehicles are great, the characters are great, the army wide rules are great and the armoury outclasses ours in many ways, so before you try to scrap some shred of glory for our book please be objective and read twice or thrice before you write. 

 

I agree everyone is entitled to his vision of the situation, everyone has his own mind and way to play this army but this is no excuse to not be objective and empirical when comes to a thing as mathematical as the comparison between two army lists defined in points and rules which are general for both armies. Than you see how woefully Chaos Space Marines fall short from their loyalist brethren. Every single unit of theirs has a positive chance to outclass a comparable unit in our book. CSM vs Tactical Squad, Legion of the Damned vs Thousand Sons, Tigurius vs Ahriman, Calgar vs Abaddon, bare bones Chapter Master/Captain vs Chaos Lord...you get the idea.

 

I find solace in the knowledge that I have quite a sizable CSM army which allows me to make numerous lists but I understand keenly the disappointment of the CSM players who have barely started or have a limited collection for they are usually on the wrong side of the tournament ladder. It is no use to sugarcoat the truth, no use at all, the SM outclass us, outperform us and do all this for a fair price in points and with way more balanced army lists.

 

Now again, EVERYONE is entitled to his own view of the whole CSM vs SM topic but please be objective and do not sugarcoat the hard truth. Please, just please. 

[TheDevourer]

To be honest I haven´t seen anything in the SM book that looks to amazing. I just love the white scars theme. But the units themselves are not so overwhelming. 

The ability to field different chapters with different rules is cool. The drake still kills anything they can offer. The grav guns are ok at most and easy to hide from. 

But I suppose we should all just wait and see what people end up playing.