Codex Space Marines: A Chaos Perspective

[Scribe]

Power Level - Not concerned, cant be bothered to be concerned as really its 'just marines'.

Flexibility of the List? - Legion rules matter. To deny this, is to deny a big big part of what the Chaos Legion fans (myself in this camp) cry about.

 

Tactical Box Legs/Arms - Uber levels of jealousy. I will be getting a box, and I will be pillaging it.

 

Just want to say again.

 

Night Lords, with an HQ with Jump Pack and a posse of Jump Pack friends, who get to start closer to the enemy, and cause 'Fear' while the rest of the ganger scum get to have a free move.

 

Yeah thats right, instantly done, easily done, Night Lords count as Raven Guard.

[Kol Saresk]

Great. Now Night Lords have gone from Blood Angel wannabes to Raven Guard wannabes. Well, at least we're going from straight up assault to jumping around like flying monkeys.

[minigun762]

I agree that SM don't have a "wow" unit like the Drake but they aren't as limited to specific builds either.

 

So far, it appears much more balanced than ours.

[Tenebris]

The whole problem is in the following: We kill them just as usual...

 

Usual implies what?

 

I tell you what it implies:

 

Biker Lord/DP with Mace/Wings

Cultists or Plague Marines

Helldrake 1-x

Obliterators

 

This is THE usual, not only the usual but the only way to stay in the game as a Chaos Space Marine if you dare to show yourself at a tournament. Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, Khorne Berzerkers and the all inbetween are just some units who look superb on a shelf and if you take them in any kind of serious army you already start with a gimped force. That is the problem with us...out concept...AS USUAL...!

 

Than to add salt to a wound they even give them nicer kits which were in no need to be remade, with a ton of generic character models to make all kinds and types of HQ and they include in their book an awesome armory that outclasses ours by a fair margin. So even if I want to roleplay as the character I wish I already start with a heavy disadvantage as a CSM player since I have to resort time and again to the same two choices.

 

So if we allow ourselves to fall so low to be content with the ... as usual... than the problem is solved and no grudges made, but if we actually want to mean something as Chaos Space Marine players than we should be bitter with this new book and especially the treatment that GW places into the Space Marines, ranging from bundles, limited edition codexes, legion rules and most important of all NEW MINIATURES! 

[Scribe]

Mostly, I saw it as an HQ that can cause Fear Kol. I swear GW added that warlord trait to Shrike on purpose...

Not saying Raptor/Jumper NL's are the only (or best, or even 'real') way, only that its a common enough theme I have seen pushed across the internet and Raven Guard w/Shrike seem to instantly fit that model with the models causing Fear buying in on what I see NL's having as an identified trait, wanting to scare people they are about to kill. :]

[Kol Saresk]

Mostly, I saw it as an HQ that can cause Fear Kol. I swear GW added that warlord trait to Shrike on purpose...

Not saying Raptor/Jumper NL's are the only (or best, or even 'real') way, only that its a common enough theme I have seen pushed across the internet and Raven Guard w/Shrike seem to instantly fit that model with the models causing Fear buying in on what I see NL's having as an identified trait, wanting to scare people they are about to kill. :]

Ah, okay. I was unaware of that bit.

[Emperors Immortals]

Mostly, I saw it as an HQ that can cause Fear Kol. I swear GW added that warlord trait to Shrike on purpose...

Not saying Raptor/Jumper NL's are the only (or best, or even 'real') way, only that its a common enough theme I have seen pushed across the internet and Raven Guard w/Shrike seem to instantly fit that model with the models causing Fear buying in on what I see NL's having as an identified trait, wanting to scare people they are about to kill. :]

I'm a bit excited about this, I can see Raven Guard Alpha Legion be g ood (with human auxilary units as scouts in a speeder), Iron Hands Iron Warriors and Templar World Eaters.

Just fun, fluffy ways to use your models on the table is all.

Actually, I think ill write an article from this and similar threads .......

[Scribe]

Also, the Raptor kit is sex. A count as Night Lord Shrike, built out of FW and Raptor parts? 100% sex once the Night Lord bits start rolling in a few months (I assume) from FW.

[Lexington]

Not saying Raptor/Jumper NL's are the only (or best, or even 'real') way, only that its a common enough theme I have seen pushed across the internet and Raven Guard w/Shrike seem to instantly fit that model with the models causing Fear buying in on what I see NL's having as an identified trait, wanting to scare people they are about to kill. :]

 

Wait, hold up. Don't, you know, Raptors cause Fear?

[Fair Winds]

The whole problem is in the following: We kill them just as usual...

 

Usual implies what?

 

I tell you what it implies:

 

Biker Lord/DP with Mace/Wings

Cultists or Plague Marines

Helldrake 1-x

Obliterators

 

This is THE usual, not only the usual but the only way to stay in the game as a Chaos Space Marine if you dare to show yourself at a tournament. Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, Khorne Berzerkers and the all inbetween are just some units who look superb on a shelf and if you take them in any kind of serious army you already start with a gimped force. That is the problem with us...out concept...AS USUAL...!

 

This is my beef as well. I don't want to field a DP, a biker lord, or a hellturkey, but if I want to be competitive, I need to have one or more of those things. Yes, good players will be able to take mediocre units and do amazing things with them. Yes, a stroke of luck can help more than any new shiny piece of wargear or awesome unit. But at the end of the day, I'm really tired of seeing the same chaos list over and over and over again. Plus, we catch all kinds of flak for taking our auto-take flyer.

 

Why do the SM get burning blade? It's effectively a better daemon sword than any of our daemon weapons. Why do they get eternal warrior? Even our DPs don't get that unless you dish out an extra $50 for the supplement. Even then, you're further limited by the inability to take artifacts from the main list. My vision of chaos has always been that these guys trade their souls for power, so I want them to be more powerful than their SM equivalent. I don't want to field a DP, I want to field a badass chaos lord with a jump pack who can tear apart his equivalent enemy HQ choices.

 

With all that being said, I know my whining won't do anything about it. GW will do what GW does, and I will continue to pay them money for a hobby that both entertains and infuriates me.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Except that Legion rules make no sense whatsoever in terms of playing a Chaos army when the point of a Chaos army is to be a melting pot of different heretics, renegades, and warriors. Legion Rules will simply abolish the flexibility of the Chaos Codex and would in most respects screw with a lot of fluff. We have our four options, the Chaos Gods, and you can use whichever one you want however you choose, or not at all.

 

Where is the flexibility in the CSM codex?...

 

Everyting is either, overcosted/ under effectif/ or simply worthless, and then there is the too good, that every time you try to discuss balance issues, people looks at you with a annoyed look and says " Oh stop whinning, you got the Heldrake for christs sakes!"...

 

yeah talk about flexibility...

[Lexington]

My vision of chaos has always been that these guys trade their souls for power, so I want them to be more powerful than their SM equivalent. I don't want to field a DP, I want to field a badass chaos lord with a jump pack who can tear apart his equivalent enemy HQ choices.

This actually kinda sums up why I'm unsympathetic to a lot of SM vs CSM arguments - it tends to boil down to wanting CSM to just be better than everyone else. That's problematic enough enough (it's based more on fanon than canon), but the fact is, every time CSM get something big and bad and super-killy - including things in the current book - it's always dismissed as too many points in one big basket. It's enough to make a guy wish there was a Chaos God of irony,

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

My vision of chaos has always been that these guys trade their souls for power, so I want them to be more powerful than their SM equivalent. I don't want to field a DP, I want to field a badass chaos lord with a jump pack who can tear apart his equivalent enemy HQ choices.

This actually kinda sums up why I'm unsympathetic to a lot of SM vs CSM arguments - it tends to boil down to wanting CSM to just be better than everyone else. That's problematic enough enough (it's based more on fanon than canon), but the fact is, every time CSM get something big and bad and super-killy - including things in the current book - it's always dismissed as too many points in one big basket. It's enough to make a guy wish there was a Chaos God of irony,

 

 

There is. He's called Fanatico Whinnius. He's a small time god, which is surprising considering all the nourishment he gets. Sadly, anonymity has a very severe price.

[Scribe]

 

Not saying Raptor/Jumper NL's are the only (or best, or even 'real') way, only that its a common enough theme I have seen pushed across the internet and Raven Guard w/Shrike seem to instantly fit that model with the models causing Fear buying in on what I see NL's having as an identified trait, wanting to scare people they are about to kill. :]

 

Wait, hold up. Don't, you know, Raptors cause Fear?

 

And therein lies the comedy.

 

The unit people parrot as the 'Night Lord' unit, is Assault Marines, which have fear.

 

The Space Marine book allows you to take a unit, lead by a 'Chaos Lord' who has a Warlord trait granting himself and his unit Fear, oh and he must deploy with Jump Pack troops, or 'Raptors'.

 

I dont even have a 40K NL force, never have, but as soon as I saw that, after all the 'should I run count as XX' threads? Seemed like GW was just telling us to do it.

[Dragonlover]

 

Except that Legion rules make no sense whatsoever in terms of playing a Chaos army when the point of a Chaos army is to be a melting pot of different heretics, renegades, and warriors. Legion Rules will simply abolish the flexibility of the Chaos Codex and would in most respects screw with a lot of fluff. We have our four options, the Chaos Gods, and you can use whichever one you want however you choose, or not at all.

 

Where is the flexibility in the CSM codex?...

 

Everyting is either, overcosted/ under effectif/ or simply worthless, and then there is the too good, that every time you try to discuss balance issues, people looks at you with a annoyed look and says " Oh stop whinning, you got the Heldrake for christs sakes!"...

 

yeah talk about flexibility...

 

I've written five different 2000 point lists with it in the last two weeks, all of which look to be fluffy and fun to play. I couldn't have done that under the 4th Ed codex if you gave me two years. Over those five lists, there are a grand total of 2 Heldrakes, 12 Obliterators and no Plague Marines. I don't even have Obliterators in each army. So yeah, I'd say that there's plenty of flexibility.

 

Dragonlover

[Fair Winds]

 

My vision of chaos has always been that these guys trade their souls for power, so I want them to be more powerful than their SM equivalent. I don't want to field a DP, I want to field a badass chaos lord with a jump pack who can tear apart his equivalent enemy HQ choices.

This actually kinda sums up why I'm unsympathetic to a lot of SM vs CSM arguments - it tends to boil down to wanting CSM to just be better than everyone else. That's problematic enough enough (it's based more on fanon than canon), but the fact is, every time CSM get something big and bad and super-killy - including things in the current book - it's always dismissed as too many points in one big basket. It's enough to make a guy wish there was a Chaos God of irony,

 

Touche. Maybe my problem is I'm just not drawn to the things we have that are currently big and killy. I don't dismiss the CC power of Abbadon, or the sheer awesomeness of roasting a squad of astartes in one go, or the lethality of a DP with black mace, wings, and armor, but those things aren't what draw me in to chaos. I'll admit it's been a while since I've read a Black Library book that wasn't about the heresy, but I seem to recall all the chaos lord the good guys face in battle being nigh impossible to defeat. A captain with shield eternal and burning blade will slice through our normal HQs like a knife through butter. 

[Shifte]

I like playing my Iron Warriors. The army uses no Heldrakes, no Obliterators and no Death Guard. Its core is 30 CSMs and I even have the audacity to field two Helbrutes at 1850 points. I like playing games against armies which look nice and feel like they could exist in the setting. Whenever I see a list which spams some overpowered unit like the Riptide or Heldrake, I just shrug and think; "Yeah, that's not for me". If it is for you - fair enough. Just remember that different people like different things.

 

People can be far too extreme online. The vast majority of games aren't at tournaments. I agree in principle that armies at either end of the spectrum should be as balanced as possible - but the sheer volume of people who say things like "Regular chaos marines are useless!" is pretty mind boggling. Yesterday, for example, I had someone insisting that Helbrutes were utterly useless whilst I was using them to kill a Sternguard Squad and protect an objective. Go figure.

 

Despite this, I have to admit that I am all for variety and I think that one day getting Legion Tactics would be awesome. I bear no grudge against C:SM just because they get these cool rules, however. From my perspective, it is awesome that my opponent's choice of chapter will lead to different and more interesting games. I particularly hope that I'll see more Imperial Fist armies, so that my Iron Warriors will get the chance to smash a greater number of the Sons of Dorn.

[Tenebris]

The problem is not the book per se but what can you achieve with it. When I first took in my hands the new SM codex the first thing that jumped to me is the sheer potential for diverse, fluffy and reasonably strong lists that one can make. Even if you do not take in account the Chapter Tactics there is so much more in there, from custom HQ, tons of wargear options and above all the diversity of play style that you can achieve with a single unit. For example the humble Tactical Squad plays in markedly different manner with Ultramarine, Imperial Fist, White Scars, Raven Guard and other tactics, and this even before you begin to add transport options like Land Raiders, Drop Pods, Rhinos, Razorbacks, before you combat squad it or you begin to choose your special and heavy weapon. Now if you compare with the basic CSM squad form our codex the difference is huge. In short you can really make the army you like, that lends well to your playstyle without being forced to take specific units and without the risk to gimp your army by being fluffy, for all works as it should, in a proper manner.

 

Leaving the individual power level of the units, leaving the portrayal in the fluff that comes not even close to the rules in our book and leaving the grudge that I have with the new SM book, I must say that at this moment bar the Helldrake there is little to no reason to use our codex since if you play as count as you would portray a chaos legion much much better. So the crux is that our book does a very poor job when comes to roleplay and we all like to roleplay with our armies. 

 

Call me jaded but with the advent of the SM book I find to have a hard time to see any merits for the Chaos Space Marine book. And the abyss between established fluff and our book rules is so deep and wide that I positively understand people like Kor, Devourer and the others of my kind who get this revolting feeling when one mentions that you should play as a count as army... it is simply unfair. 

 

Then GW realizing their mistake would try to subdue us with supplements which are a poor excuse for some lazy work done and bar filling their account with more money would only enrage proper players. Naftka wrote that there will be god specific books and legion supplement books which means that a fluffy chaos army would have to have four books to be at least competitive and fluffy. And without those books you cannot field this force in a legit tournament.

 

So do not sugarcoat things or say the Helldrake is not everything, for it is the only thing that keeps out book floating. Before even remotely considering casual players I look at the tournament scene where bad rules, bad design and a bad book are all the more relevant, where the internal design of the army has so many flaws that is struggles to be effective, let alone competitive and to add some salt to the wound we even have to rely on age old miniatures and a single unit to make us even remotely useful as a main army or as an ally. 

[the jeske]

Right you are man of the norhern league.

 

Imagine a AL list.

 

Khan+WS.

scouting tacticals in rhinos.

scouts [AL field operatives , those half implanted dudes they use from tiem to time] in land speeder storms.

IG blob [traitor guard].

 

Power build ? no . will get wiped by top tier builds most of the time . But the options the fresh game play . Every can look different from set up rules alone . simple change of a drop pod here or a biker unit/LR crusder there and it you play a different list for half of 6th ed.

 

 

 

I like playing my Iron Warriors. The army uses no Heldrakes, no
Obliterators and no Death Guard. Its core is 30 CSMs and I even have the
audacity to field two Helbrutes at 1850 points. I like playing games
against armies which look nice and feel like they could exist in the
setting. Whenever I see a list which spams some overpowered unit like
the Riptide or Heldrake, I just shrug and think; "Yeah, that's not for
me". If it is for you - fair enough. Just remember that different people
like different things.

Black templars .

Chapter master bombardment etc armed as you arm your lord only with a better inv

mix of crusader squads[breach stormer squads] 5 man+hvy weapon squads

actual siege cannons[TC] , techmarines not taking up HQ slots .

no loyalist tanks , no flyers . casual and better feel then an IW list out of chaos codex.

[minigun762]

Let's keep the focus on the new SM codex and how it can be utilized and not start up the 750th "Chaos sucks because ..." topic.

 

The horse has been beaten, reanimated and beaten to death again.

[daveNYC]

Let's keep the focus on the new SM codex and how it can be utilized and not start up the 750th "Chaos sucks because ..." topic.

 

The horse has been beaten, reanimated and beaten to death again.

 

Is that something we could get if we stuck Typhus in a unit of Rough Riders?

 

C:SM - Lots of options.  Especially options that let them drop shooty stuff right next to our Blastmasters and Oblits.  Le sigh.

[Gree]

I'd echo the whole using Raven Guard as Night Lords. The new Raven Guard rules fit my Night Lords warband all too perfectly. A jump pack lord with lightning claws leading an elite group of stealth specialists. ATSKNF is somewhat problematic, but overall the loyalist Codex fits my guys better as I had envisioned them.

[minionboy]

Let's keep the focus on the new SM codex and how it can be utilized...

 

Ugh, hasn't that been beaten to death too?  "My chaos counts as X" is every whiny chaos player's solution to complaining about the CSM Book or C:SM.

[Zeller]

Normal C:CSM self-pity feelings and arguments aside I'm curious how to model the Word Bearers in the new space marine book. I'm afraid the go to response is Templars given their zealousness and fiery oratories made possible by their chaplains but I think this doesn't have to be the obvious answer. Besides, I've got a proper Templar army as is so no need for doubles now is there. :P Sadly, looking over the available chapter tactics the BT are the only relavent option. *sigh*

[Scribe]

I think minigun was saying 'utilized, so we can plan to defeat it' not count as. Not that I have issue with either perspective. My 30K NL will run as Raven Guard, without a doubt.