Codex Space Marines: A Chaos Perspective

[Kol Saresk]

Why not run 30K NL as 30K NL?

[Scribe]

Tournaments. 

[Kol Saresk]

Ah. Right. GW Tournaments don't allow the rulebooks from the GW-Division known as Forgeworld.

[Scribe]

Neither do most indy run tournaments in my neck of the woods unfortunately.  Getting there with some IA inclusiveness, but not the 30K lists...

[Deus de Mortalis]

Well, I was talking about combat effectiveness in what Jeske responded to. I think you would still be hard pressed to make a fighty chapter master that is anywhere as good as Abaddon.

An Iron Hands chapter master with artificer armor, storm shield, bike, and power fist will usually beat Abaddon in a duel, but is far more mobile with his bike and costs only 210 points versus Abaddon's 265.

[minionboy]

 

Well, I was talking about combat effectiveness in what Jeske responded to. I think you would still be hard pressed to make a fighty chapter master that is anywhere as good as Abaddon.

An Iron Hands chapter master with artificer armor, storm shield, bike, and power fist will usually beat Abaddon in a duel, but is far more mobile with his bike and costs only 210 points versus Abaddon's 265.

 

He's more resilient sure, and might even have an edge in a challenge with Abaddon through pure resilience (also providing Abaddon's unit doesn't have the FNP banner), but only having 4 attacks doesn't really make him an awesome combat character, anything he does want to fight is going to take 3 rounds to chew through at best.

[A D-B]

Ah. Right. GW Tournaments don't allow the rulebooks from the GW-Division known as Forgeworld.

 

Naw, it's that they're different games. You can bring your High Elves to my 40K campaign - I mean, your elves will move in inches and use WS, BS, S, I, and so on, just like my Chaos Marines... but they're not designed to interact smoothly.

 

Forge World are awesome at not being the Fun Police - Alan often says he wants to make things fun and let people "play with their toy soldiers however they want" - but you can tell the Heresy rules are designed in their own context. Of course you can use them elsewhere, and some mixes and matches will even be relatively balanced (they say it in the FAQ, no less) but it's still a sliiiightly different deal. It's designed to be Legion vs. Legion, with the rules about masses of Marines against other masses of Marines with balanced rules. It's very clearly a different era and style of war.

 

F'rex, an Ork player facing a Legion force is... going to have a very, very, very different experience than facing a 40K Marine or Chaos Marine force. His army will be deleted in a turn or two, for a start, due to volkite weaponry and Fury of the Legion. There's a reason these guys conquered the galaxy.

 

I'd never go red and shriek at someone using 30K rules to represent their 40K army (the rules for Chaos Legions, and the options they get, are so flavourful and lush that of course it's tempting), but none of us would have it in our campaign (which is ludicrously permissive in every way you can imagine) and similarly, I wouldn't want to play against them in general. Same way I'd not field a 6th Edition army against a 3.5 one, or a Fantasy army against a 40K one.

 

Personal opinion, natch. But the rules are designed in the context of fighting other 30K forces. On the surface, it doesn't really seem like another army list that will likely be considered equal for 40K tournament play, even among those that use Forge World rules.

[zyl-]

 

 

Well, I was talking about combat effectiveness in what Jeske responded to. I think you would still be hard pressed to make a fighty chapter master that is anywhere as good as Abaddon.

An Iron Hands chapter master with artificer armor, storm shield, bike, and power fist will usually beat Abaddon in a duel, but is far more mobile with his bike and costs only 210 points versus Abaddon's 265.

 

He's more resilient sure, and might even have an edge in a challenge with Abaddon through pure resilience (also providing Abaddon's unit doesn't have the FNP banner), but only having 4 attacks doesn't really make him an awesome combat character, anything he does want to fight is going to take 3 rounds to chew through at best.

Getting into combat 2 rounds earlier and never rolling 1s on his daemon weapon will help even that out.

 

Even so, I counter that we can field a nurgle biker lord with PF, LC, and Sigil of Corruption for 165 points. And it works well.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Ah. Right. GW Tournaments don't allow the rulebooks from the GW-Division known as Forgeworld.

Naw, it's that they're different games. You can bring your High Elves to my 40K campaign - I mean, your elves will move in inches and use WS, BS, S, I, and so on, just like my Chaos Marines... but they're not designed to interact smoothly.

 

Forge World are awesome at not being the Fun Police - Alan often says he wants to make things fun and let people "play with their toy soldiers however they want" - but you can tell the Heresy rules are designed in their own context. Of course you can use them elsewhere, and some mixes and matches will even be relatively balanced (they say it in the FAQ, no less) but it's still a sliiiightly different deal. It's designed to be Legion vs. Legion, with the rules about masses of Marines against other masses of Marines with balanced rules. It's very clearly a different era and style of war.

 

F'rex, an Ork player facing a Legion force is... going to have a very, very, very different experience than facing a 40K Marine or Chaos Marine force. His army will be deleted in a turn or two, for a start, due to volkite weaponry and Fury of the Legion. There's a reason these guys conquered the galaxy.

 

I'd never go red and shriek at someone using 30K rules to represent their 40K army (the rules for Chaos Legions, and the options they get, are so flavourful and lush that of course it's tempting), but none of us would have it in our campaign (which is ludicrously permissive in every way you can imagine) and similarly, I wouldn't want to play against them in general. Same way I'd not field a 6th Edition army against a 3.5 one, or a Fantasy army against a 40K one.

 

Personal opinion, natch. But the rules are designed in the context of fighting other 30K forces. On the surface, it doesn't really seem like another army list that will likely be considered equal for 40K tournament play, even among those that use Forge World rules.

Fair enough. Just hearing all the tales of how well it flows into the mainstream game it just seems kind of weird that it wouldn't be let in.

[A D-B]

 

 

 

Ah. Right. GW Tournaments don't allow the rulebooks from the GW-Division known as Forgeworld.

Naw, it's that they're different games. You can bring your High Elves to my 40K campaign - I mean, your elves will move in inches and use WS, BS, S, I, and so on, just like my Chaos Marines... but they're not designed to interact smoothly.

 

Forge World are awesome at not being the Fun Police - Alan often says he wants to make things fun and let people "play with their toy soldiers however they want" - but you can tell the Heresy rules are designed in their own context. Of course you can use them elsewhere, and some mixes and matches will even be relatively balanced (they say it in the FAQ, no less) but it's still a sliiiightly different deal. It's designed to be Legion vs. Legion, with the rules about masses of Marines against other masses of Marines with balanced rules. It's very clearly a different era and style of war.

 

F'rex, an Ork player facing a Legion force is... going to have a very, very, very different experience than facing a 40K Marine or Chaos Marine force. His army will be deleted in a turn or two, for a start, due to volkite weaponry and Fury of the Legion. There's a reason these guys conquered the galaxy.

 

I'd never go red and shriek at someone using 30K rules to represent their 40K army (the rules for Chaos Legions, and the options they get, are so flavourful and lush that of course it's tempting), but none of us would have it in our campaign (which is ludicrously permissive in every way you can imagine) and similarly, I wouldn't want to play against them in general. Same way I'd not field a 6th Edition army against a 3.5 one, or a Fantasy army against a 40K one.

 

Personal opinion, natch. But the rules are designed in the context of fighting other 30K forces. On the surface, it doesn't really seem like another army list that will likely be considered equal for 40K tournament play, even among those that use Forge World rules.

Fair enough. Just hearing all the tales of how well it flows into the mainstream game it just seems kind of weird that it wouldn't be let in.

 

I could be wrong, natch. Personal opinion and stuff.

[minigun762]

(Had to google the definition of "natch")

[Deus de Mortalis]

minionboy, on 14 Sept 2013 - 05:58, said:

He's more resilient sure, and might even have an edge in a challenge with Abaddon through pure resilience (also providing Abaddon's unit doesn't have the FNP banner), but only having 4 attacks doesn't really make him an awesome combat character, anything he does want to fight is going to take 3 rounds to chew through at best.

I think the fact that generic space marine character can be built to handily defeat the baddest guy in the Chaos codex while being quite a bit cheaper and not requiring a landraider nor even a retinue is pretty damning of the Chaos codex in general. And by handily defeating Abaddon, this is what I mean: The chapter master can bring Abaddon down to 0 wounds in an average of 5 rounds of combat, and that is ignoring any rolls of 1 for Abby's daemon weapon. Abaddon will require an average of 8 rounds of combat to do the same to the chapter master.

 

And if that isn't enough salt in the wound, think about this chapter master's ability to soak up shooting! It would take on average 27 lascannon shots fired at him with BS4 to take him out in a single turn. That is a lot more than Abaddon's 15! Anyway, this chapter master can defeat anything the Chaos codex can throw at him in a challenge. Also that chapter master can tank any deathstar conceivable from the Chaos codex.

 

What can the Chaos codex do in defense? Let him do whatever he wants while your three heldrakes and two daemon princes fly around out of reach? Somehow charge him with a blob to tarpit him? Other than a squad of 10 bikers with a fearless HQ, I'm not sure what would be able to do it.

 

This is kind of sad. After discovering the Iron Hands chapter master for myself, I can't even look at my Forgeworld Abaddon in the eye!

[Dammeron]

 

minionboy, on 14 Sept 2013 - 05:58, said:

He's more resilient sure, and might even have an edge in a challenge with Abaddon through pure resilience (also providing Abaddon's unit doesn't have the FNP banner), but only having 4 attacks doesn't really make him an awesome combat character, anything he does want to fight is going to take 3 rounds to chew through at best.

I think the fact that generic space marine character can be built to handily defeat the baddest guy in the Chaos codex while being quite a bit cheaper and not requiring a landraider nor even a retinue is pretty damning of the Chaos codex in general. And by handily defeating Abaddon, this is what I mean: The chapter master can bring Abaddon down to 0 wounds in an average of 5 rounds of combat, and that is ignoring any rolls of 1 for Abby's daemon weapon. Abaddon will require an average of 8 rounds of combat to do the same to the chapter master.

 

And if that isn't enough salt in the wound, think about this chapter master's ability to soak up shooting! It would take on average 27 lascannon shots fired at him with BS4 to take him out in a single turn. That is a lot more than Abaddon's 15! Anyway, this chapter master can defeat anything the Chaos codex can throw at him in a challenge. Also that chapter master can tank any deathstar conceivable from the Chaos codex.

 

What can the Chaos codex do in defense? Let him do whatever he wants while your three heldrakes and two daemon princes fly around out of reach? Somehow charge him with a blob to tarpit him? Other than a squad of 10 bikers with a fearless HQ, I'm not sure what would be able to do it.

 

This is kind of sad. After discovering the Iron Hands chapter master for myself, I can't even look at my Forgeworld Abaddon in the eye!

 

 

It's beyond sad; it's damn insulting. And make no mistake: we should all feel profoundly insulted: this is the second time they've done this to us (third, if you count the awful original 3rd ed codex), despite the reams and reams of material even a casual search of the internet would provide: the fan codicies, the home grown rules, the critiques, sundry autopsies etc that came out in the wake of the 4.0 travesty, it should have been simple enough to deduce that it was NOT a good basis for any future works. They didn't have to resurrect the 3.5 codex: they just had to demonstrate that some thought and consideration had gone into reconceiving Chaos for a new generation. Instead we've got a cut, copy and paste of the 'dex that single handedly turned Chaos into a joke with sundry useless or broken options that demonstrate just how little time, energy and inspiration was spent on the product. We should have really had an inkling of how things were going to go down when we saw that they hadn't even bothered to produce any new artwork for the cover (insterad simply reproducing the cover for one of the Black Library's publications). Quite frankly, GW are lucky any Chaos players, particularly us slightly older guard, pay it the slightest scrap of attention or courtesy any more, especially whjen we have clear comparisons of companies using the licence well and putting a degree of thought and consideration into what they produce (Forgeworld, Black Library, Fantasy Flight).

 

There is no excuse for this situation.

[Trevak Dal]

 

Example AL list I used back in 3.5 days.

two infiltration hQs

2x5 las plas inf

2x8 dual plas inf

3x6 havocks tank hunter

 

Hmm, I think using the Black Legion supplement...you can do that.

 

2x5 chosen squads with lascannon and plasma gun (and maybe another upgrade or two...)

 

2x8 Chosen with dual plasma

 

3x5 havoks with lascannons or auto cannons.  Have Huron run it, or see if the person you're playing would mind if you just got the Infiltrate d3 CSM Codex Warlord Trait (assuming friendly games)

 

 

WB list

apostol

1x8 letters

3x6 netts

2x5 las plas

1x3 oblits

1x6 havocks AC

 

Again, you could facilitate that through the BL Supplement (mostly for Chosen's ability to get the specials in less than 10 guys) and ally with Daemons.

 

 

EC

syren prince

1x6 dual plas inf NM

5x6 nets

 

In this one, you'd Main Daemons, and Ally In BLS CSMS.

[the jeske]

 

Hmm, I think using the Black Legion supplement...you can do that.

 

2x5 chosen squads with lascannon and plasma gun (and maybe another upgrade or two...)

 

2x8 Chosen with dual plasma

 

3x5 havoks with lascannons or auto cannons.  Have Huron run it, or

see if the person you're playing would mind if you just got the

Infiltrate d3 CSM Codex Warlord Trait (assuming friendly games)

 

No you can't . in the AL list everything had infiltration not d3 . and the havocks could have tank hunter and infiltration as long as you didn't take the mark of chaos undivided . Ah and one more thing. The AL list was not top tier, but was viable to use . The BL list you propose to play is bad. High cost meq with random infiltration , not a gunline , not a melee list .No way to get close in to rapid fire range. You won't have the utility HQs AL could take either .

 

 

 

 

Again, you could facilitate that through the BL Supplement (mostly for

Chosen's ability to get the specials in less than 10 guys) and ally with

Daemons.

Or even better . not take csm at all , play demon main . WB was a very good demon bomb[most were. the EC one , the BL one and the WB one were realy good] . taking an apostol makes 0 sense , it is a very bad HQ , chosen can't do las/plas because of how much they cost [high cost and forced to take vets if BL dex is taken]. There is no infiltration utility ,

 

 

 

In this one, you'd Main Daemons, and Ally In BLS CSMS.

What for ? demons work better without csm/nm [as in units] , what they want is cultists , helldrakes and maybe mace DPs or sorc if they want to go cheap.

 

Also I think you are missing the point. the 3 example lists I posted were done out of 1 codex , all were viable , different lists out of the csm are not . Right now to do the same lists , one would have to either use other codex[ WS+khan  one for AL etc] or try it with the csm dex and get something that   sucks. No one in their right mind would take a chosen list , just for the sake of being different .

[Vaz]

I am very interested in using my NL through the SM Codex. RG stand as a good candidate for this list usage.

 

Overall I feel the SM dex gives you options, even if they are not "uber-competitive" options. I enjoy the fact that you can take HG for your commander. I like various deployment options for many of my units. Even if I kept the RG army as a raptor cut Battle Brother's ally and took another chapter as my core list. A strong amount of flexible options and being able to put the models I want on the table in a way that I want to use them.

 

The new SM dex I feel really reaches out to your casual, or semi-casual player who wants pretty models of their own choice who can do things on the table top. I agree with many other players that the CSM dex does have a narrow focus for strong units and has a tendency to lean on the hellturkey to carry the day.

[Scribe]

 

 

minionboy, on 14 Sept 2013 - 05:58, said:

He's more resilient sure, and might even have an edge in a challenge with Abaddon through pure resilience (also providing Abaddon's unit doesn't have the FNP banner), but only having 4 attacks doesn't really make him an awesome combat character, anything he does want to fight is going to take 3 rounds to chew through at best.

I think the fact that generic space marine character can be built to handily defeat the baddest guy in the Chaos codex while being quite a bit cheaper and not requiring a landraider nor even a retinue is pretty damning of the Chaos codex in general. And by handily defeating Abaddon, this is what I mean: The chapter master can bring Abaddon down to 0 wounds in an average of 5 rounds of combat, and that is ignoring any rolls of 1 for Abby's daemon weapon. Abaddon will require an average of 8 rounds of combat to do the same to the chapter master.

 

And if that isn't enough salt in the wound, think about this chapter master's ability to soak up shooting! It would take on average 27 lascannon shots fired at him with BS4 to take him out in a single turn. That is a lot more than Abaddon's 15! Anyway, this chapter master can defeat anything the Chaos codex can throw at him in a challenge. Also that chapter master can tank any deathstar conceivable from the Chaos codex.

 

What can the Chaos codex do in defense? Let him do whatever he wants while your three heldrakes and two daemon princes fly around out of reach? Somehow charge him with a blob to tarpit him? Other than a squad of 10 bikers with a fearless HQ, I'm not sure what would be able to do it.

 

This is kind of sad. After discovering the Iron Hands chapter master for myself, I can't even look at my Forgeworld Abaddon in the eye!

 

 

It's beyond sad; it's damn insulting. And make no mistake: we should all feel profoundly insulted: this is the second time they've done this to us (third, if you count the awful original 3rd ed codex), despite the reams and reams of material even a casual search of the internet would provide: the fan codicies, the home grown rules, the critiques, sundry autopsies etc that came out in the wake of the 4.0 travesty, it should have been simple enough to deduce that it was NOT a good basis for any future works. They didn't have to resurrect the 3.5 codex: they just had to demonstrate that some thought and consideration had gone into reconceiving Chaos for a new generation. Instead we've got a cut, copy and paste of the 'dex that single handedly turned Chaos into a joke with sundry useless or broken options that demonstrate just how little time, energy and inspiration was spent on the product. We should have really had an inkling of how things were going to go down when we saw that they hadn't even bothered to produce any new artwork for the cover (insterad simply reproducing the cover for one of the Black Library's publications). Quite frankly, GW are lucky any Chaos players, particularly us slightly older guard, pay it the slightest scrap of attention or courtesy any more, especially whjen we have clear comparisons of companies using the licence well and putting a degree of thought and consideration into what they produce (Forgeworld, Black Library, Fantasy Flight).

 

There is no excuse for this situation.

 

I liked this, and I am quoting it. Over and over and over, this is truth.

[Zhukov]

No offense, but anybody saying that SM aren't that strong and that Chaos is fine compared to them has their head up on their , really.

I'll give you an example, a list I literally wrote in 10 mins:

WHITE SCARS
Khan 150
5 Scouts 55
8 Bikes Bikes; 3x Grav, MM AB, meltabomb 268
8 Bikes Bikes; 3x Grav, MM AB, meltabomb 268
8 Bikes Bikes; 3x Grav, MM AB, meltabomb 268
8 Bikes Bikes; 3x Grav, MM AB, meltabomb 268
Rifleman 120
Rifleman 120
Rifleman 120
Hunter 70
Hunter 70
Hunter 70
Total: 1847

This is a list without allies and pretty much exists out of 3 different units. Even something simplistic and unoptimal as this, will still perform way better than anything from the Chaos codex.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

No offense, but anybody saying that SM aren't that strong and that Chaos is fine compared to them has their head up on their , really.

I'll give you an example, a list I literally wrote in 10 mins:

WHITE SCARS

Khan 150

5 Scouts 55

8 Bikes Bikes; 3x Grav, MM AB, meltabomb 268

8 Bikes Bikes; 3x Grav, MM AB, meltabomb 268

8 Bikes Bikes; 3x Grav, MM AB, meltabomb 268

8 Bikes Bikes; 3x Grav, MM AB, meltabomb 268

Rifleman 120

Rifleman 120

Rifleman 120

Hunter 70

Hunter 70

Hunter 70

Total: 1847

This is a list without allies and pretty much exists out of 3 different units. Even something simplistic and unoptimal as this, will still perform way better than anything from the Chaos codex.

This, the fact they could do a list as powerfull without any of those units is the real kicker, whilst we have plague/Noise marines with as many drakes as you can cram and using anything else gets you a bumby ride.

[Zhorzh]

I should stop reading this codex because the more I do the more I get upset. Now, try not to laugh: I've just learned that my bloody Chosen army has been invalidated.


IMPERIAL FISTS SUCCESSOR CHAPTER (CRIMSON FISTS?)

Pedro Kantor 185
Techmarine 50
Tac Squad; Lascannon 90
Tac Squad; Lascannon 90
8 Sternguard; Lascannon, Plasmagun, 2 Combiplasmas, Rhino 276
8 Sternguard; Lascannon, Plasmagun, 2 Combiplasmas, Rhino 276
8 Sternguard; Lascannon, Plasmagun, 2 Combiplasmas, Rhino 276
5 Devastators; 4 Missile Launchers 130
5 Devastators; 4 Missile Launchers 130
3 Centurion Devastators; Missile Launchers, TL Lascannons, 280

TOTAL: 1783 out of 1850 pts


This is more or less an equivalent to how my CSM army looks. I've basically just swapped Abbadon or some other HQ for Pedro, Chosen for Sternguard and Tacs, Havocs for Devastators and Obliterators for Centurions. What I got is a very similar package, added with: ATSKNF, Combat Squads and Preffered Enemy (Orks) for everyone, Tank Hunters for Devastators and Centurions, Orbital Borbardment, Special Ammo instead of Plasmaguns for Sternguard, I can re-roll 1's to hit while I shoot with ordinary Bolter ammo (although that's not very relevant in my case), and I've added a Techmarine for some cheap fortification lulz. And I still got some points to spend.

This isn't the best list in the world, but it does almost everything I'm trying to do with my CSMs and it's better in every respect. Damn it...

[Tenebris]

Indeed, I have run a test game between two standard armies (tactical marines, devastators, assault marines and terminators) and the loyalists fared much better in the 1500 points game I have played. I love infantry heavy forces and while I and my friend were close to the number of marines his Ultramarines outperformed mine. Sure the Havocs were a nice unit to counter his Devastators but the Relentless for a turn allowed them to reposition themselves and still fire, making them much more responsive. I have also been on the bad end of three tactical squads (we simply marched our armies head on, Word Bearer style) which got their awesome reroll in the shooting phase, it was disheartening. While the two plasma guns in my CSM squads and the Power Weapons of the Terminators are a boon I was once again reminded of our frail discipline when I was forced to make four checks in a single turn. And yes, reroll on the Snap Fire, meant a reroll on the Overwatch and I have lost two terminators to that. 

 

In the end the SM are a great book, they really are and they pack a character like no one. They manage to both stay fluffy and still be competitive and I damn as hell envy them this quality.

 

The only spare advantage I had was my Mastery 3 Sorcerer over his Librarian but I have fried myself on turn four. 

 

One thing is certain, Chapter Traits are a very important thing and one can really base a strategy around them. I see this playing a major factor in the future SM armies and it seems that army wide rules are the go to in order to include the fluff in the games. I love this concept, great work from GW.

 

BTW. I was red with envy when his Captain had EW...and the looks of the Vanguard (proxies for basic ASM) are killer. 

[Urauloth]

Normal C:CSM self-pity feelings and arguments aside I'm curious how to model the Word Bearers in the new space marine book. I'm afraid the go to response is Templars given their zealousness and fiery oratories made possible by their chaplains but I think this doesn't have to be the obvious answer. Besides, I've got a proper Templar army as is so no need for doubles now is there. Sadly, looking over the available chapter tactics the BT are the only relavent option. *sigh*

With WB you prettymuch have to go full zealotry and run them as templars or focus on the daemonomancy aspect and run CSM with a heap of daemon allies, imho. None of the other chapter tactics make any sense. If you already have an actual templar army... oof. Tough call.

[Fair Winds]

So with the lethality of their HQs in mind, how do we kill them? I would prefer to be able to kill them with my chaos lord, but I'm not so sure that's possible these days given their access to 2+, 3++, and EW? Do we just kill them with torrent of fire? Massed oblits? Havocs or chosen with plasma?

[daboarder]

Well any chaos lord you build is just going to get punked by a chapter master, even a for funzzies one.

 

so shoot them with oblits or cram a DP down their throat.....ahhh so much like 4th I want to be sick.

[Fair Winds]

I could see Abby or Typhus going toe to toe with a bog-standard chapter master, but even then it's pretty dicey and nowhere near the reliability they get. What about just tarpitting with spawn?