Perturabo's Daemonhood

[Shifte]

I was going to post this in the thread about Lorgar and Perturabo's alignment, but despite being tangenical it was still fairly off topic. Here goes:

I hope they retcon the idea that Perturabo became a Daemon Primarch when they eventually write up the Iron Cage.

http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2055/Angel-exterminatus-art-01.jpg

(Angel Exterminatus Art)

1) In my opinion, Perturabo's character doesn't suit being a Daemon Primarch. In Angel Exterminatus, one of the coolest aspects of that book is finding out that Perturabo has a lot more depth than had been previously suggested. He wants to be a builder, despite being a destroyer; he's bitter about being overlooked and underestimated; he genuinely thinks the Emperor is doing it wrong and he frequently shows respect and admiration for loyalists who display resilience.

2) He doesn't seem to be particularly likely to worship Chaos, which I think is cool. Since 5 of the other Traitor Primarchs became Daemons, I think it would be more interesting to have him retain his mortal form.

3) Sacrificing 400 Imperial Fist Gene-Seeds is a pretty weak-sauce reason for becoming a Daemon Primarch. Especially given the fact that Dorn survived the Iron Cage. Besides that, the idea that Perturabo was using the Iron Cage to facilitate ascension doesn't sit right with me. It was about trolling Dorn. It was ALWAYS about trolling Dorn!

Note:

I'm not saying Perturabo can't become a Daemon Prince. The story can clearly lead him down that path, and as it stands he became one after the Iron Cage. This is just me expressing my opinion, and I'd simply like it better if they alter the story so that he remains the Perturabo I've read about in the Heresy.

If I was writing it myself, I'd have Perturabo infected with the first case of the Obliterator Virus (during his post Angel exterminatus trip into the Eye of Terror) and make it manifest itself after the Iron Cage. He'd hate that s***, which plays into his whole " persevere :-/ " vibe. That could easily explain why people presume he is a Daemon Primarch and also retain some uniqueness and a semblance of his personality from the Heresy books.

Thoughts?

[Dammeron]

I don't mind the concept of Perturabo ascending to daemonhood (besides which, it won't be ret-conned as it's too established within the background). From what I understand, he doesn't worship the Chaos powers as such; he regards them as allies of convenience who have provided him the means, time and power to bolster his strength and finally strike back against the Imperium he so despises. I imagine what we're going to see over the course of the Iron Warriors HH novels is his gradual realisation that the war against the Imperium cannot be won under current constraints, culminating in the death of Horus and the failure of the assault on Terra. He then turns to the powers he previously suspected and despised as a means of providing the time and raw power he needs (bear in mind that, in daemon form, he practically has eternity to plot and wage his revenge). In return, he provides the Chaos powers the services they require to achieve their own ends.

[Shifte]

See, I wonder, is it really too established? If they changed him into an Obliterator-Primarch, or decided that he instead didn't become a Daemon, what would change? He could still retreat to Medrengard, and everything that came before could still happen. The fact that Perturabo is a Daemon Primarch isn't really something that comes up a lot. If you consider some of the other retcons GW makes, such as Alpharius having Omegon, it really wouldn't be outwith the bounds of the HH novels to change that outcome.

 

I agree with you, otherwise. I know that that sort of character development is possible. I'd just prefer it if it didn't happen that way as I find it a bit less interesting and a lot more limiting.

[Pariah Mk.231]

Oi! No messing with my primarch's daemonhood. Bad loyalist, bad!

 

 

1) He grew to hate everyone who saw him as just another tool to be used to achieve victory, without even acknowledging the progress they were making solely because of his (and his legions) efforts.

 

2) He and his legion don't worship Chaos as a rule, though there are certainly those amoung the legion who do so. Perturabo didn't turn to Chaos out of reverance, he sought only the power he needed to fuel his revenge. To an Iron Warrior, Chaos is only a tool to be used when it benefits us, and it's a less important tool than our weapons and armour. As for not becoming a daemon-primarch, following the patterns of the other traitor primarchs, it was either that or death.

 

3) Remember that the numbers for the Iron Cage are still based on the old legions numbering only 10,000, and that 400 should now be 4,000, which is a significantly bigger deal. That's also a huge amount of gene-seed not being recycled to make new marines, so the sacrifice isn't strictly that it was taken from their enemies, it's that it wasn't then used to strengthen themselves in turn. Destroying so many potential warriors to please the gods did more to gain their favour than those potential warriors could have if they had come to be.

[Vesper]

I think you can count on a jump in numbers of dead IF, as the IA was written before the retcon of the legion's strenght.

[Shifte]

Oi! No messing with my primarch's daemonhood. Bad loyalist, bad!

1) He grew to hate everyone who saw him as just another tool to be used to achieve victory, without even acknowledging the progress they were making solely because of his (and his legions) efforts.

2) He and his legion don't worship Chaos as a rule, though there are certainly those amoung the legion who do so. Perturabo didn't turn to Chaos out of reverance, he sought only the power he needed to fuel his revenge. To an Iron Warrior, Chaos is only a tool to be used when it benefits us, and it's a less important tool than our weapons and armour. As for not becoming a daemon-primarch, following the patterns of the other traitor primarchs, it was either that or death.

3) Remember that the numbers for the Iron Cage are still based on the old legions numbering only 10,000, and that 400 should now be 4,000, which is a significantly bigger deal. That's also a huge amount of gene-seed not being recycled to make new marines, so the sacrifice isn't strictly that it was taken from their enemies, it's that it wasn't then used to strengthen themselves in turn. Destroying so many potential warriors to please the gods did more to gain their favour than those potential warriors could have if they had come to be.

He's my Primarch too. Iron Within, Brother.

1) I agree.

2) Whilst I agree with the sentiment and thoughts regarding Chaos, why would it have strictly meant death if he hadn't bothered to join them in ascension?

3) You're right on the numbers. I hadn't thought about that, and 4,000 sounds a lot better than 400. I still don't particularly like that he decided to do it, though.

[Pariah Mk.231]

It's just the pattern the GW have followed with the primarchs. Traitors either ascended or died, while loyalists either died or disappeared.

[the jeske]

See, I wonder, is it really too established? If they changed him into an Obliterator-Primarch, or decided that he instead didn't become a Daemon, what would change? He could still retreat to Medrengard, and everything that came before could still happen. The fact that Perturabo is a Daemon Primarch isn't really something that comes up a lot. If you consider some of the other retcons GW makes, such as Alpharius having Omegon, it really wouldn't be outwith the bounds of the HH novels to change that outcome.

 

I agree with you, otherwise. I know that that sort of character development is possible. I'd just prefer it if it didn't happen that way as I find it a bit less interesting and a lot more limiting.

Well with the change to chaos demonprinchood it is a big change. Because it is impossible to just be a demon prince of chaos . You have to be dedicted to a god. This would change him and his legion in to a cult one.

[Sception]

Yes, but given that, then retconning Peturabo to no longer be a daemon would result in less change to established fluff, not more.  Because the Iron Warriors as a cult legion would be a pretty dramatic and rather painful change.

[Pariah Mk.231]

No it wouldn't Jeske, just because most of the power needed for ascension would have to come from a particular god, that does not require the champion and his followers worship said god. It simply means that god has been the one most pleased by the actions of the champion and his followers and has bestowed the power upon the champion. On that note, a champion is not even required to be a worshipper of a god to have that god's mark, it just means he has performed actions the god is pleased with and has been blessed in turn.

 

So if Khorne (or anyone of the others) is the one who raised Perturabo to daemonhood, it doesn't mean his legion is going to make the jump to wholesale cult status, or even view Chaos as more than a simple tool.

[Lay]

Daemonhood doesn't even imply that someone is being rewarded for being a devout follower of chaos. The self-obsessed and the insane are just as likely to ascend, as long as they are deemed worthy by the gods.

[Sception]

not "the gods" but "one specific god", after which the champion is a tool of that god, under its domination and part of its essence.  That's what being 'daemon of' means, and it makes even less sense for Lorgar than it does for Peturabo.  Remind me which chaos god Lorgar hates again?

[the jeske]

 

So if Khorne (or anyone of the others) is the one who raised

Perturabo to daemonhood, it doesn't mean his legion is going to make the

jump to wholesale cult status, or even view Chaos as more than a simple

tool.

there is a slight problem with that way of thinking . First of all what ever god buffed Turboman to demon status would never accept worship of an aspect of chaos that makes him weaker. This would mean inter legion wars durning the transition period. Second while chaos gods could accept allying with another gods power in a short term , they would not do it in a long term . And as the tool thing goes . Yes some may think so . Ahriman does , Abadon maybe . But that is also why neither of those want to become a demon. A demon has no own will . Everything a demon does , thinks and does the god knows . It would as if a hammer started to rebel against a dude using it . Not that it wasn't tried [belkhor] before , but it always ends bad . Also the problem with demons is that like everthing made out of purge rage/change/excess/stangation , they do not know how to stop. A demon prince Primarch maybe powerful , but just like a bloodletter can't stop harvesting skulls, neither will he. That is also why demons/demon primarchs are such hard ally to use alongside other troops .

[Lay]

not "the gods" but "one specific god", after which the champion is a tool of that god, under its domination and part of its essence.  That's what being 'daemon of' means, and it makes even less sense for Lorgar than it does for Peturabo.

If we follow this logic then it's not just Lorgar or Perturabo, but also a large number of generic Daemon Princes such as Periclitor, M'kar or Voldorius.

[Sception]

Yup.  Be'lakor as well.

 

No, the current 'must be aligned to a single deity' thing really just doesn't work for daemon princes.  Other daemons, daemons that only come into being as manifestations of their deities power?  Sure.  But princes?  No.  I don't think the game needs undivided as a 'mark', but princes at least should have the option to be unaligned, not only to reflect the fluff of dozens of canonically unaligned princes, but also to allow for fluffy multi-alignment daemon armies, which really don't make any sense in the current fluff, yet are required to be 'a thing' because the game can't support four three extra daemon codeces.

[Pariah Mk.231]

 

 

So if Khorne (or anyone of the others) is the one who raised

Perturabo to daemonhood, it doesn't mean his legion is going to make the

jump to wholesale cult status, or even view Chaos as more than a simple

tool.

there is a slight problem with that way of thinking . First of all what ever god buffed Turboman to demon status would never accept worship of an aspect of chaos that makes him weaker. This would mean inter legion wars durning the transition period. Second while chaos gods could accept allying with another gods power in a short term , they would not do it in a long term . And as the tool thing goes . Yes some may think so . Ahriman does , Abadon maybe . But that is also why neither of those want to become a demon. A demon has no own will . Everything a demon does , thinks and does the god knows . It would as if a hammer started to rebel against a dude using it . Not that it wasn't tried [belkhor] before , but it always ends bad . Also the problem with demons is that like everthing made out of purge rage/change/excess/stangation , they do not know how to stop. A demon prince Primarch maybe powerful , but just like a bloodletter can't stop harvesting skulls, neither will he. That is also why demons/demon primarchs are such hard ally to use alongside other troops .

 

Except that daemon princes aren't the same pure manifestations of a particular god's essence, they still retain traces of their former selves, unlike the daemons that are created by their gods from nothing more than a portion of the god's own power. This is why greater daemons look upon princes with disdain, they're not pure beings of Chaos. Apart from Doombreed and Angron, what other daemon prince of Khorne would a bloodthirster give it's respect to?

Their will may be bound to the commands of the god that raised them to daemonhood, but each prince still retains his self of self and his ambitions, even if he can't always act upon them. Hell, with enough worshippers of his own, a prince could conceivably break free of his bonds and become a new minor god in his own right, or at least gain enough free will to determine his own actions, independant of his master's will. Very few would ever have the oppurtunity, but I think if any were to have the will to do so, it would be Lorgar and Perturabo. Both are still masters of their legions who would put reverance for their Primarch above all else, legions who make extensive use of mortal servants to further support each Primarch's independant worship. While the cult Primarchs are intrinsically linked to the patron deity, as well as the other, more power princes (such as Doombreed and N'kari), Perturabo and Lorgar were never linked to one particular god. They may nominally bear the mark of a single god, or even more than one as Abaddon has proven to be possible, but the other three would probably also have enough of their own power invested in the two primarchs to allow said primarchs to assert enough will to remain reasonably free, and not just a puppet for their god.

[Aragantes]

I think the only two feasible options for both Lorgar and Perturabo are either we find out they are the most powerful daemon-primarchs due to being able to ascend without submitting to one single power. Or they have a moment of despair following the siege of terra and finally make a deal with one/several god(s).

[Sception]

Or we could just go back to the days when a chaos champion who amassed enough glory, power, and pschic energy could spontaneously transcend their physical form and mortal concerns to adopt a warp-spawned, metaphysical daemonic incarnation without the patronage of a single discrete god. Or when the gods as a group could come together to elevate a mutual champion to lead their daemonic legions in matters that concerned the pantheon as a whole, for no daemonic creature spawned by a single gods will and ambition could hope to direct the forces of its rivals.

 

Again, I don't think we need chaos undivided as a distinct mark, but there are too many powerful independent daemonic entities in the cannon for the current requirement that princes in particular must be aligned to make any sense.

[Vorrax]

I agree, Perturabo would have never became a demon prince. being a demon prince actually is a hindrance because he can be banished back to the warp like Angron.I can see the Iron Warrior Primarch going to the unknown regions and from there consolidating power to invade the Imperium.

[Sception]

I respect your necromancy.

 

I wouldn't call becoming a daemon prince a hindrance, though.  Yeah, a daemon primarch can be banished, but the amount of effort it takes to do so isn't really any greater than that required to outright kill a mortal primarch.  At least a daemon primarch can return in time.

 

As for the nature of Peturabo, I liked him as a prince back when undivided princes was a thing, but now that being a prince means being subservient to any one god, it just doesn't seem to fit him.  I'd still like to see some sort of metaphysical apotheosis for him, but would rather it was something other than regular princedom as it's currently defined.  Perhaps merging with the Forge of Souls?  Perhaps Peturabo might be the Forge of Souls?  I don't know.  We'll see what the Black Library authors come up with eventually.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I'm afraid they'll align him with Nurgle because of that one bit of fluff about him unleashing a machine plague. They need to bring back Undivided as a thing, even if just for non-cult Legions.

[Clone]

I didn't like the change from undivided princes to god specific only. I'm not sure how lorgar works either. By his very belief he wouldn't favour one god over the other. Perhaps as the Horus heresy series continues (into the scouring) we'll find out more about daemon hood and the "undivided" primarchs

[Wade Garrett]

What does Perturabo not worshipping Chaos have to do with anything?

 

Angron didn't even know what Khorne was when he ascended on Nuceria, and I will see your "Gene seed of 400 Imperial Fists" and raise you "Because Roboute Guilliman stepped on a dead guy".

 

:p

[incinerator950]

I didn't like the change from undivided princes to god specific only. I'm not sure how lorgar works either. By his very belief he wouldn't favour one god over the other. Perhaps as the Horus heresy series continues (into the scouring) we'll find out more about daemon hood and the "undivided" primarchs

I think it's a case of shoehorning and bad writing as to why you don't see Undivided Princes, or even GDs and what not. Gone is the age where someone could gain the favor of multiple entities, or someone finding a demon battery or relic to ascend power in.

[Kol Saresk]

See, I wonder, is it really too established? If they changed him into an Obliterator-Primarch, or decided that he instead didn't become a Daemon, what would change? He could still retreat to Medrengard, and everything that came before could still happen. The fact that Perturabo is a Daemon Primarch isn't really something that comes up a lot. If you consider some of the other retcons GW makes, such as Alpharius having Omegon, it really wouldn't be outwith the bounds of the HH novels to change that outcome.

 

I agree with you, otherwise. I know that that sort of character development is possible. I'd just prefer it if it didn't happen that way as I find it a bit less interesting and a lot more limiting.

 Obliterators are part daemon too, just saying.

 

not "the gods" but "one specific god", after which the champion is a tool of that god, under its domination and part of its essence.  That's what being 'daemon of' means, and it makes even less sense for Lorgar than it does for Peturabo.  Remind me which chaos god Lorgar hates again?

Except that in the game, when one ascends to Daemonhood they become UnMarked. The only time a DP has a Mark is if they start out as a DP at the beginning of the game. So fluffwise, saying all daemons have to be Marked, is about as "eh" as saying all Marked individuals are actually worshippers. Also, minor warp powers. A very current piece of the background. And they exist outside the power of the gods.

 

Also, didn't second edition have NL=Khorne, AL=Tzeentch, WB=Nurgle and IW=Slaanesh, or something like that? So the idea of the Unaligned Legions being influenced by one god over the others isn't exactly that foreign, its just very, very old and very, very unused.