C:SM intel

[Lord Ragnarok]

Based on my own dabbling in the new sm codex and reading discussions in the SM threads I've noticed that a chapter master with artificer armor on bike with burning blade and the relic shield will be a challenge for our wolf lords on thunder wolf.(or any character)

 

He will have +3 inv, bike stats, ap2 power weapon with additional 3 strength, 5 attacks, 4 wounds adamantium will and eternal warrior. If iron hands he will also have feel no pain 6+ and it will not die.

 

Expensive but deadly.

 

What strengths or weaknesses are you fellow wolves finding?

[SerEightBall]

Yep faced that exact CM build with Iron Hands tactics. Took two wounds off of him with my alpha strike turn 1, and a third a few turns later, but I just couldn't bring it down before he tore through my lines. Normally I'd try to send a rune-priest in to Force Weapon something like that, but with the EW shield...

 

And of course he had 6 Ironclads in drop pods. So even my best anti-armor was struggling. Plasma was useless and even if you manage to glance they get the damn IWND.

 

It was fun to face new marines for the first time, but sad to see our Wolves really have fallen so far below the curve.

[Grey Mage]

Tacticals are cheaper, but still mostly horrid at CC.

 

The centurions alot of people are crazy over are.... a bit one dimensional. Shoot the choppy and chop the shooty, and do it fast. Theyre not as survivable to heavy weapons and CC as terminators are, but theyll bounce more bolter shots. *shrugs*

 

Alot of people seem to be completely ignoring their AA options, wich would be a great exploit.... if we had any flyers.

 

GHs still outfight anything but the tooled up and somewhat expensive assault specialists, I say take the fight right to their hearts. We shoult as well as they do, sternguard and centurions aside, and we fight a heck of alot better.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

It was fun to face new marines for the first time, but sad to see our Wolves really have fallen so far below the curve.

 

I can only assume that this is some sort of joke that doesnt translate well over the internet. Because IF your serious than I can only laugh in response.

 

"below the curve"...the SM codex has 1 model that potentially stand up to our Thunder Lord and give as good as he gets. ONE.  He costs 275 points.

 

Find your spine, remember your a Son of Fenris, and thank the All-Father our brethen finally got a CC monster worth facing off with.

 

And when you kill him, be sure to remind your opponent his CHAPTER MASTER got taken down a Wolf Lord, the equivilant to a Captain.

 

WLK

[Vash113]

The new Chapter Masters and relic options are nice, but incredibly pricey.

 

The aforementioned Chapter Master would come to 275 points. For that cost I could throw virtually any two of my characters at it in cc and shooting will still give the character some trouble. I've never been particularly fond of suped up heroes, while potentially devastating they can also be huge flops as well. Whenever I had to face a Thunderlord with my Imperial Fists I just threw Lysander at them, worked virtually every time, and for cheaper. Now that things are reversed I'll probably do the same with a battle leader or lone wolf kitted appropriately.

 

As for the Codex: Space Marines in general, some things got cheaper, some a bit more expensive, probably the nastiest thing will be Tigurius actually. He's way cheaper and much better, arguably the best psyker in the game now.

 

And as for flyers, that's what we have allies for. Throw in a couple cheap guard veteran squads led by a lord commissar and stick em in a Valkyrie squadron. Or bring along some C:SM or BA allies for some Stormtalon and/or Stormraven fun-ness. I like to use Blood Angels allies. A Chaplain leading a 10 man Death Company as a Wolf Priest leading Wulfen and transported around in a Stormraven Gunship.

[SerEightBall]

Hey I'm still a Blood Claw compared to the rest of you as far as my experience with 6th ed and my Wolves. I was just getting comfortable with my list against this guy's Dark Angels (who don't intimidate me at all). I guess by curve I meant the abrupt change to the meta in my group and my inability to respond effectively, not so much the space wolves themselves being being ineffective. I'll admit my list and playstyle were getting predictable.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Hey I'm still a Blood Claw compared to the rest of you as far as my experience with 6th ed and my Wolves. I was just getting comfortable with my list against this guy's Dark Angels (who don't intimidate me at all). I guess by curve I meant the abrupt change to the meta in my group and my inability to respond effectively, not so much the space wolves themselves being being ineffective. I'll admit my list and playstyle were getting predictable.

the current wolf dex has been out for awhile so folks are used to dealing with it. And there is a learning curve when understanding and countering the new dexes. This may be a good time to try new things to throw off your group.

[Grey Mage]

Yep, remember you too can be the one who changes the meta with fun new tactics. Alot of the go-to units in books arent go-to because theyre the only option but simply because they are numerically strong.

 

Overall list balance can make many supposedly under powered units in to all stars if you play smart and know your meta. Try new things and youll find new tactics.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

As far as changing the meta-game. My answer is a unit of 1x3 landspeeder to take out stuff like centurions. Question: can landspeeders move after they deepstrike?

[Jarl Deathwolf]

Answer: No, as far as I'm aware. They can shoot, though. I've used that fact to blow up soooo many Soul Grinders.

[Russ Brother 92]

Answer: No, as far as I'm aware. They can shoot, though. I've used that fact to blow up soooo many Soul Grinders.

Indeed - having 3 Speeders (or if like me you don't use anything else for Fast Attack then 6-9) turn up just close enough with either MMs & HBs or HFs & AssCans can really ruin someone's day - I only own 3 atm (my last match I borrowed another 6 off my dad) but I ran 9 - 3 MM/HB, 3 Typhoon/HB and 3 HF/AssCan against the new Eldar (my opp. doesn't go for flyers but he had 5 Serpents, a Prism and a Falcon) much of it was luck but you can really wreck face - especially with things like Eldar tanks or inf. heavy forces (looking at you Guard/Orks)...

 

I may end up running some centurions (much as I hate the models) purely so I can use my burgeoning IH's Heresy force in 40k as well, due to no-one near me playing 30k :(

[Mammon]

Since 6th Edition hit I am returning to tactics I tried and abandoned in 4th Edition. Bikers and Speeders are counter to the usual Marine Tactics but for what they do they are cheap and add a degree of maneuverability to an army seldom seen as such. Speeders start out at fifty points before upgrades and the bikes at twenty-five. Sure Headstrong can make it tricky to use the bikers but with the new charge rules it feels like less of an issue to me. The one downside to bikers is they rarely wipe a unit on the alpha strike but that is either good or bad depending on the tactical situation. Speeders are tougher with the new glaning hit rules but flimsier at the same time with only two Hull Points. For what you get though, it can be a worthwhile investment. 

 

 Now C:SM psykers start out at less than seventy points for a Master Level One character. The next tier takes them up to a little over a hundred (quoting from memory so pardon any errors). This bodes very well for us in the next codex as psykers can be complete game changers. Malediction powers are fantastic and coupled with our still-amazing-but-almost-certain-to-be-nerfed 4+ Nullification our Rune Priests are superior to the equivalent Librarian from the nex codex. 

 

 Our Wolf Priests are arguably better compared to their Chaplains considering they can confer Outflank onto the unit he is attached to. 

 

 We lack AA or Flyers but that really only matters if you are heading to a tourney or if your local meta leans that way. 

 

 As it always is, the C:SM is the newest codex so we are entering the stage where we adapt to the new units and tactics. Give it a few months the Sons of Russ will still be contenders. 

[Squark]

Err... Bikes are Sixth Edition's darlings. I wouldn't call them atypical for marines at the moment. Atypical for space wolves, perhaps.

[Mammon]

 Fair 'nough. I haven't seen very many players using Space Marine Bikes in the local meta. I think I am the only one who fields them at all! That said, the opinion is the product of what I see and around these parts folks aren't taking advantage of one of the better units in 6th!

[montegue]

Personally, I'm a lot more worried about Centurions with Grav Cannons. 

[Grimtooth]

Personally, I'm a lot more worried about Centurions with Grav Cannons. 

I am more worried about all the Space Marine players that are not going to be able to make up the money they spent on new models when they rage quit and sell it all on Ebay after my 5th edition Wolves kick their tails.

[Vash113]

Err... Bikes are Sixth Edition's darlings. I wouldn't call them atypical for marines at the moment. Atypical for space wolves, perhaps.

 

I too haven't seen many bikes, the rules may favor them but the cost puts a lot of people off them I think.

[Mammon]

Still a shame! I would have figured with the Chapter Tactics the White Scars get, there would be far more Bikers out there. Just haven't seen it yet. The Codex is fairly new so maybe in the coming months we will see a White Scars tourney list or two. 

 

 As for GravCannons, I think they are neat but hardly something to truly fear. AP2 hurts but Plasmaguns and cannons wound Marines on 2+ while ignoring 2+ saves anyway and there are more than enough AP3/2 weapons already, one more will hardly matter.

 

 Centurions are basically Meganobs with better BS/WS...in fact...they are Marinenobs! Awesome! I digress, use the same tricks against them as you would against Nobs and there you go. Remember, they don't have invulnerable saves so plasma weapons and lascannons will make short work of them. Another point against them is they are no where near as mobile as Nobs/Terminators... because they cannot deep strike so they are dependent on some legwork or a Land Raider to get the assault. Nobs can hop in Trukks(Wagons?) or onto bikes, Terminators can just teleport or ride a Pod. Now the Devastator Centurions are freaking insane, inside of 24" with their GravAmps and Gravity Cannons,they could wipe out a Terminator Squad the turn it arrives or hose Nob bikers into kingdom come...but if you assault them then you will win. They are just T5 tactical marines with two wounds, sure twice as hard to kill I guess but they are rarely going to win any CC engagement. Granted, getting into range will be a trip but it is not like there will be waves and waves of these units, they cost too much in points and in actual currency to really change the balance of the game. You could probably get more mileage from Devastators now that their Heavy Weapons are cheaper. 

 

 But that is my two cents. 

 

[WolfLordSam]

I'm actually toying with the idea of building a Legion of the Damned squad. Not necessarily fielding it, mind you, but building it for the modelling fun. If I can find a reasonable way to field it, so much the better.

[Urauloth]

 

Err... Bikes are Sixth Edition's darlings. I wouldn't call them atypical for marines at the moment. Atypical for space wolves, perhaps.

 

I too haven't seen many bikes, the rules may favor them but the cost puts a lot of people off them I think.

 

The cost isn't bad with the new boxes of 3 and all. It's the models that put me off. The only ones I actually like are the scouts (which aren't an option) and the forge world outriders, which... go right back to the cost argument, what with being as expensive as centurions.

[SW1]

From re-reading the relic rules I'd say that a model can only have a single one.  I'm seeing a few possible builds with more than one so watch out.

 

Not got the book infront of me now but it says something like "A model may replace one weapon with one of the following."

[SW1]

 

Personally, I'm a lot more worried about Centurions with Grav Cannons. 

I am more worried about all the Space Marine players that are not going to be able to make up the money they spent on new models when they rage quit and sell it all on Ebay after my 5th edition Wolves kick their tails.

Let them flood ebay so I can pick up the stuff cheaper.  I'm going to be doing an Iron Hands army after the Great Company is finished.  ;)

[Urauloth]

From re-reading the relic rules I'd say that a model can only have a single one.  I'm seeing a few possible builds with more than one so watch out.

 

Not got the book infront of me now but it says something like "A model may replace one weapon with one of the following."

 

I do, and yes, that's the exact wording. There seems to be nothing from stopping you from taking the armour and swapping a weapon for a relic as well, though.

[logun]

From re-reading the relic rules I'd say that a model can only have a single one.  I'm seeing a few possible builds with more than one so watch out.

 

Not got the book infront of me now but it says something like "A model may replace one weapon with one of the following."

 

yes but it does not say you may replace "only" one weapon with one of the following, so i have understood it to mean that you could replace your chainsword for one of the blades and then replace your pistol for the sheild. it is not written very well because as it is written it doesn't actually feel like you have to lose a weapon to gain the relic, because it says you "may" replace not "must" replace.

 

i could be completely wrong.  

[SW1]

The replacing may with must would denote that a character has to have a relic when it doesn't, it "may" depending on if the person taking the army decides to have it or not.  So the use of "must" would not be right in that context and an argument based on this reasoning is flawed.

 

It also doesn't say you can replace as many weapons as you want.  It's quite specific saying you can "replace ONE weapon with ONE of the following".  If it was implying this could be done multiple times then it would used wording along the lines of.  A model may replace each weapon with one of the following.

 

Following on with that line of reasoning the rules clarification for the armour makes it clear that it replaces the armour rather than a weapon.  But still doesn't give you the option to do this on top of a weapon swap or with multiple weapons.

 

I'll give you an example.  I tell my child he can have one biscuit. Does that mean only one or only one each time he dips his arm into the biscuit barrel?

 

You don't have to say "only" one when all you mean is one.  If you have the intention to mean one each time then you would clarify and make it clear.