Changes to Calth and other HH retcons

[Veteran Sergeant]

Diverting this discussion here because it isn't fair to Potato's project log to take it off course.

Relevant pieces of the discussion quoted below.

I like the idea.

One question on clarification, IIRC those who stayed on the planet were trapped for seven years, basically missing the Heresy. Since these are survivors from Calth, would they be part of the fleet that retreated with Guilliman?

That was the original idea. Of course, that only survived as long as first contact with Black Library, which has been steaming full ahead in retcon mode.

Sergeant red Helmet Whatsisname that I could easily Google but won't because I'm lazy, but not too lazy to type this long sentence out, he leaves Calth at the end of the Censure audiodrama.

But it jives with the new direction they are going with the Heresy. Originally, after Istvaan, it was a mad dash to Terra. But now, so they
can sell more books, the timeline has been drawn out. With the Ultramarines chasing down the Word Bearers and World Eaters all over Ultramar, it seems like there'd be plenty of time for ships to be going to and from Calth. At this point, we don't even know where Guilliman and the rest of the Ultramarines are headed. In true Black Library fashion, Primarchs will appear at any point in the galaxy they need to be at for any given storyline.

The Censure audiodrama? Don't even think I've heard of it. It'd be the first time I've heard of someone escaping Calth through conventional means.

But now, so they can sell more books, the timeline has been drawn out.

50 books.

They could have told the story in 15, easily. But no, we have to get horrible departures of train wreck writing like Nemesis shoe-horned into the series to pad it out.

IIRC,
I don't recall any mention of anyone escaping Calth(after the fleets left) except for one specific individual. You'll see that in Mark of Calth, Darth. So I'm not exactly sure where the change in fluff has happened yet.

However, when the attack at Calth happened, there were a great deal of troops already stationed on the fleet above and what troops weren't were getting ready to be mobilized into the fleet for transport. There a great number of troops that could escape. And IIRC correctly, forty-one of those ships would go to Nuceria to fight the XII and XVII Legion detachments there immediately following the retreat from Calth. However, as far as I know, nothing says those forty-one were the entirety of the surviving fleet. It is more than possible that some of those ships were organized into other response fleets to go after other Traitor fleets.

So as far as I know, there is already plenty of justification for someone who was at Calth, to be somewhere else during the Heresy, they just have to be part of the fleets that escaped its sun since no one from the surface got a ride into orbit, as I recall.

Kol: They seem to change little bits of the fiction from novel to novel as they need to. One book will have Calth cut off from the rest of the Imperium because of its sun the next has ships coming and going. Whatever the author needs to move their story forward seems to be fluid in the grim darkness of the far future.

[Kol Saresk]

What's the original source for it being a mad dash to Terra? Going through the IA articles, it always seemed there was a big giant hole between the beginning of the Heresy and the end of the Heresy considering this was a war that spanned the whole of the Imperium and then some. How long is something like that suppose to take?

[Saa]

Seven years if my memory serves me right.

 

The galaxies slowest mad dash right there! ;)

 

Saa

 

.....or something like that

[Hyaenidae]

Seven years was the old war, if I remember it correctly. That's still a mad dash on a universal scale, and in my opinion, questionable.

 

I don't mind BL or FW speading the timeline out, but I will always perfer quality over quantity.

 

Battle for the Abyss, Nemesis, and The Outcast Dead were quantity, and should have never been written.

 

EDIT: Gawd Dammit, ninja'd again.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Most of it stems from the idea that what kept the Ultramarines out of the Battle of Terra was that they were on the far edge of the Galaxy and couldn't get there in time. Similarly, the Wolves and Dangels are not at Terra because they are also delayed.  The galaxy goes to pieces, but what it is are a lot of forces loyal to the Warmaster engaging in their own rebellions while Horus takes the traitor legions to Terra to knock off the Emprah.

 

Calth didn't exist in the "original" version of the Heresy. It was a retaliatory attack by the Word Bearers much later.  So originally, Horus's plan was to get to Terra while he had 7-9 Legions and the Emprah only had three to defend himself with. Once the Emprah was dead, the assumption was that he could consolidate and then deal with the remaining loyal legions either one at a time, or in follow on battles.

 

And it woulda worked, if it wasn't for those meddling kids.

[Kol Saresk]

The original? Would that be before the IA articles? Where can I find that?

[Veteran Sergeant]

Seven Years was the Scouring.  I don't know if the Heresy ever had a timeline in the original fluff.  It basically goes from Istvaan to Terra.

 

Went and browsed through Slaves of Darkness, and it's an instant transition. Codex: Chaos and Codex: Ultramarines pretty much share that idea, jumping directly from Istvaan to Terra without any stops on the way. In fact, it mentions the Ultramarines smashing a sizable group of reinforcements who were on their way to Terra, which lends credence to the idea that Horus wasn't bothered to even make sure everybody was on hand before assaulting Earf, instead just running with what he brung, in the parlance of street racers.

 

It's important to note though, that there are a fair number of contradictions that riddle the old fluff like a cancer, mostly because the Horus Heresy was a fairly abstract concept back then, that was, possibly intentionally, not really fleshed out a whole lot.

[Kol Saresk]

So basically, all there ever was was just a beginning and an end, but no middle?

[Saa]

Mentioning Battle for the Abyss in the presence of a Word Bearers fan is the same as smearing excrement on a wall and trying to sell it as art.

 

Apoplectic rage ensues ;) Filler it ain't

 

Saa

 

....or something like that

[Excessus]

In the 2nd ed Chaos Codex, the Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are described as fighting on several campaigns before the siege of Terra took place.

 

...and in the original story, it was Alpha Legion that fought loyalists at Tallarn...

[Scribe]

Google the IA articles, they are out there for reading. I dont remember a timeline for the HH specifically, but it was said that the World Eaters chomped a bunch on the way to Terra (parallel is what they did in Butchers Nails and Betrayer).

[Kol Saresk]

Google the IA articles, they are out there for reading. I dont remember a timeline for the HH specifically, but it was said that the World Eaters chomped a bunch on the way to Terra (parallel is what they did in Butchers Nails and Betrayer).

That means more to come since Betrayer and Nails aren't even headed to Terra yet.

[Veteran Sergeant]

More or less. There is the inference that there are other battles going on simultaneously, but even as far back as the Slaves to Darkness book, it's saying:

 

"Horus had, apparently, managed to corrupt four of the seven Chapters sent against him.

 

With nine rebel Chapters* and the bulk of the Adeptus Mechanicum behind him, and three loyal Chapters destroyed, Horus assaulted Earth."

 

*StD being before the invention of the idea of Legions in the 2nd Edition fluff

 

Codex: Chaos 2E says this:

"After the initial landings, the 'loyalist' follow-up waves had attacked their allieds instead of the rebels.

 

Horus now controlled nine Space Marine Legions and had destroyed three loyal Legions. Throughout the Imperium, loyalists and reels were fighting eachother to a virtual standstill*, although the tide of battle was turning, ever so slowly in the Emperor's favour. Horus knew that if he could crush the heart of the Emperor's resistance he could remould the Imperium in his own warped image. He ordered and assault on Earth.

 

*These battles are described in earlier paragraphs as being concurrent with Istvaan V, and subsequent to III.

[Kol Saresk]

How long does it take to get from Istvaan to Terra?

[Excessus]

It's in the Legion descriptions, Sarge.

[Saa]

So basically, all there ever was was just a beginning and an end, but no middle?

Pretty much. This is why I personally take the frothings of the HH 'retcon' haters with a pinch of salt. Changes had to be made if the middle was gonna be fleshed out.

 

Saa

 

.....or something like that

[Veteran Sergeant]

It's not frothing, and it isn't very constructibve to try to pick a fight with me over military strategy and tactics, since it will end very poorly for you, lol. Try to keep your replies relevant and constructive Saa, or kindly find your way to DakkaDakka where that kind of response belongs.

 

Honestly, that way makes a whole lot more sense than the retcon.

 

Not having a middle makes perfect strategic sense.  Horus has shattered three Legions. He has a giant ball of Space Marine asswhoopin' at his disposal, and his strongest remaining enemies, the Ultramarines, are too far away to do anything to stop or stall you.  Get to Terra before the loyalists can recover and rally, kill the Emprah, and then deal with the mop up.  In a galaxy where you can travel extradimensionally, why would you cut a swathe across the galaxy like it's some kind of conventional land campaign?  Ultimately, he was going to have to deal with the threats on his flanks. But if he acheives his primary goal first, then it's a matter of holding on to power, rather than securing it.  If he wins at Terra, he's now destroyed six of the loyal Legion, and just has the depleted Space Wolves, the depleted Dark Angels, and the Ultramarines to deal with. 

 

 

Edit: Plus, ultimately, this discussion isn't about whether the changes are good or bad. Just that there have been significant changes.

[Onisuzume]

Mentioning Battle for the Abyss in the presence of a Word Bearers fan is the same as smearing excrement on a wall and trying to sell it as art.

Well, it could work...

And knowing how dumb some humans are, probably already has worked.

The second half, that is.

Also, I'm currently reading that book, and I like neither side, so I'm just content to watch them kill each-other.

How long does it take to get from Istvaan to Terra?

Depends on the warp more than anything else.

We've had instances in canon where a fleet arived at their battle a decade before the war broke out.

Not having a middle makes perfect strategic sense. Horus has shattered three Legions. He has a giant ball of Space Marine asswhoopin' at his disposal, and his strongest remaining enemies, the Ultramarines, are too far away to do anything to stop or stall you. Get to Terra before the loyalists can recover and rally, kill the Emprah, and then deal with the mop up.

Also fits in with the general type of war that the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus have been fighting.

[Saa]

It's not frothing, and it isn't very constructibve to try to pick a fight with me over military strategy and tactics, since it will end very poorly for you, lol. Try to keep your replies relevant and constructive Saa, or kindly find your way to DakkaDakka where that kind of response belongs.

Umm my humble apologies?  At no point was  calling you out, only referencing pesronal 'real life' experiences of people raging about the retcons.  The magic of text speak and the internet leads people to draw personal conclusions.

 

I stand by what I said.  If you choose to make it about you........when at no point have you come across as 'frothing'........that's your peronal choice mon ami.

 

Saa

 

.......or something like that

 

Edit..spelling

[Hyaenidae]

It's not frothing, and it isn't very constructibve to try to pick a fight with me over military strategy and tactics, since it will end very poorly for you, lol. Try to keep your replies relevant and constructive Saa, or kindly find your way to DakkaDakka where that kind of response belongs.

 

Honestly, that way makes a whole lot more sense than the retcon.

 

Not having a middle makes perfect strategic sense.  Horus has shattered three Legions. He has a giant ball of Space Marine asswhoopin' at his disposal, and his strongest remaining enemies, the Ultramarines, are too far away to do anything to stop or stall you.  Get to Terra before the loyalists can recover and rally, kill the Emprah, and then deal with the mop up.  In a galaxy where you can travel extradimensionally, why would you cut a swathe across the galaxy like it's some kind of conventional land campaign?  Ultimately, he was going to have to deal with the threats on his flanks. But if he acheives his primary goal first, then it's a matter of holding on to power, rather than securing it.  If he wins at Terra, he's now destroyed six of the loyal Legion, and just has the depleted Space Wolves, the depleted Dark Angels, and the Ultramarines to deal with. 

 

 

Edit: Plus, ultimately, this discussion isn't about whether the changes are good or bad. Just that there have been significant changes.

 

'Makes sense' and 'has potential' vary heavily there, in my opinion. In a perfect, war-torn universe, hell yes, Horus could have, and should have, made a bee-line for Terra. Burn the place to the ground, cut the Emperor in half, and re-fortify.

 

The problem is, though, that his generals, those brothers who have allied with him, all have some serious issues. Unstable junior leadership, as I'm sure you know, leads to piss-poor decision making. Perturabo has an axe to grind, Magnus is indecisive and broken, Fulgrim couldn't care less, Curze is insane, Angron too, A&O are too busy scheming against everyone (including each other) with no focus, Lorgar is dancing to songs in his head. At the end of the day, Horus can reliably depend on the Death Guard, his own Sons, and sometimes the Iron Warriors when they ain't busy trying to add to their yellow hat collection.

 

This leads to the element of suprise being wasted on personal vendettas, and the loyalist Legions getting their bearings, thus being able to wage counter-strikes, or at least organize a guerrila war. All my opinion, of course, but at the end of the day, no plan survives contact with the enemy... or loose cannons in your own ranks.

 

So far, I've been happy with the overall direction, but I'd like to see some actual movement towards Terra. BL has kind of played out 'the first phase' a little too long at this point.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Well, the other end of it was the original Primarchs were a little different than what they've mutated into. Angron believing himself to be the savior of mankind is one of the more amusing of them.

But then again, if you're Horus, and you know you've got the least disciplined and combat effective of the Primarchs (obviously you'd rather have guys like Guilliman and Dorn than Angron and Lorgar), then the beeline idea actually minimizes your risk by giving them less time to screw up. The longer it draws out, the longer they have to use personal initiative and gum up the works. If he goes straight from Istvaan to Earf, he can just let them loose and hope for the best. Which is more or less what happened anyway. The EC's went off the reservation entirely. Horus knew he was sitting on a ticking time bomb. He just was trying to get that bomb as close to the Loyalists as possible before it went off.

Again though, I don't have a problem with the story changing. In some ways, it's gotten somewhat better. In other ways, some fairly absurd things have occurred. I like to say that really, this is just Horus Heresy v. 3.0. All of the past versions are essentially worthless when used for canonicity because already so many changes have been made that there's nothing sacred to the storyline except that Horus attacks Earf and Sanguinius dies, and Horus is killed, and The Emprah ends up in the Golden Throne. Everything else we "know" about the Horus Heresy is more or less irrelevant. We're basically along for TBL's ride. Assuming it ever stops at Terra and we see the end of things.

[Tyrannicide]

For my own personal reasons, I'd love to read somewhere that a handful of Ultramarines that fought on the surface of Calth made it off planet. Makes the most sense if they escaped right before the main fleet bolted and Veridian started releasing its solar storm.

 

I haven't researched concrete numbers yet, but I'm pretty sure Abnett makes reference to how many Ultramarines were at Calth to start with. Hundred thousand, give or take, probably a good 3/4 dead as dirt, but then there's certainly some room to play with that last ~25k. I'm sure several hundred could've made it to orbit to join big G. 

 

I bet FW will be the first to solidify this part of the storyline. 

[Kol Saresk]

On the inverse, a straight bee-line would give them no incentive to stick around and re-fortify. They'd just scatter to the wind and leave Horus all by his lonesome. At least giving them a goal, gives him some measure of control. Angron helped burned one hundred worlds. Then ascended. And still left an entire war in Ultramar. Why? Because he still had to march on Terra with Horus. The goal is a leash. It may not control every single step they take, but it does limit how far they can go. If Horus can keep the goal just far enough away that he can turn it into a noose and keep them under his control forever, then he never has to worry about them leaving him during the re-fortification.

 

That's why there was such a drastic change in goal when Sevatar temporarily took control of the VIII Legion during Curze's recovery. Sevatar had no reason to comply with Horus' demands, not the same way that Curze did. That's why he scattered the Legion to the wind in six fleets, not counting the fleet he used to hold off the Dark Angels during the second ambush.

[Kol Saresk]

Darth Potato, on 13 Sept 2013 - 17:49, said:

For my own personal reasons, I'd love to read somewhere that a handful of Ultramarines that fought on the surface of Calth made it off planet. Makes the most sense if they escaped right before the main fleet bolted and Veridian started releasing its solar storm.

 

I haven't researched concrete numbers yet, but I'm pretty sure Abnett makes reference to how many Ultramarines were at Calth to start with. Hundred thousand, give or take, probably a good 3/4 dead as dirt, but then there's certainly some room to play with that last ~25k. I'm sure several hundred could've made it to orbit to join big G.

 

I bet FW will be the first to solidify this part of the storyline.

Great idea, but other than Loken's lightning quick infiltration-exfiltration with that Ultramarines Librarian in one of the audiodramas.

[Tyrannicide]

 

Darth Potato, on 13 Sept 2013 - 17:49, said:

For my own personal reasons, I'd love to read somewhere that a handful of Ultramarines that fought on the surface of Calth made it off planet. Makes the most sense if they escaped right before the main fleet bolted and Veridian started releasing its solar storm.

 

I haven't researched concrete numbers yet, but I'm pretty sure Abnett makes reference to how many Ultramarines were at Calth to start with. Hundred thousand, give or take, probably a good 3/4 dead as dirt, but then there's certainly some room to play with that last ~25k. I'm sure several hundred could've made it to orbit to join big G.

 

I bet FW will be the first to solidify this part of the storyline.

Great idea, but other than Loken's lightning quick infiltration-exfiltration with that Ultramarines Librarian in one of the audiodramas.

 

Ah yes, Tylos Rubio I believe. Great name.