Changes to Calth and other HH retcons

[Veteran Sergeant]

On the inverse, a straight bee-line would give them no incentive to stick around and re-fortify. They'd just scatter to the wind and leave Horus all by his lonesome. At least giving them a goal, gives him some measure of control. Angron helped burned one hundred worlds. Then ascended. And still left an entire war in Ultramar. Why? Because he still had to march on Terra with Horus. The goal is a leash. It may not control every single step they take, but it does limit how far they can go. If Horus can keep the goal just far enough away that he can turn it into a noose and keep them under his control forever, then he never has to worry about them leaving him during the re-fortification.

 

That's why there was such a drastic change in goal when Sevatar temporarily took control of the VIII Legion during Curze's recovery. Sevatar had no reason to comply with Horus' demands, not the same way that Curze did. That's why he scattered the Legion to the wind in six fleets, not counting the fleet he used to hold off the Dark Angels during the second ambush.

Yeha, but these are all characters and events which only exist in TBL's Horus Heresy 3.0. They weren't relevant to the original fluff. Sevatar, the manner of Angron's ascension, etc, are symptoms of the change, not causes for it. In the original versions, he just ascended at some point, the details of which weren't really relevant or necessary to the storyline. And Ultramar was just the 11 planets.

[Castellan Michael]

Seven years if my memory serves me right.

The galaxies slowest mad dash right there!

Saa

.....or something like that

like triple Ninja'd...

7 years...but warp storms slowed all loyalist travel. Note to self...always read all the posts.

[Kol Saresk]

On the inverse, a straight bee-line would give them no incentive to stick around and re-fortify. They'd just scatter to the wind and leave Horus all by his lonesome. At least giving them a goal, gives him some measure of control. Angron helped burned one hundred worlds. Then ascended. And still left an entire war in Ultramar. Why? Because he still had to march on Terra with Horus. The goal is a leash. It may not control every single step they take, but it does limit how far they can go. If Horus can keep the goal just far enough away that he can turn it into a noose and keep them under his control forever, then he never has to worry about them leaving him during the re-fortification.

That's why there was such a drastic change in goal when Sevatar temporarily took control of the VIII Legion during Curze's recovery. Sevatar had no reason to comply with Horus' demands, not the same way that Curze did. That's why he scattered the Legion to the wind in six fleets, not counting the fleet he used to hold off the Dark Angels during the second ambush.

Yeha, but these are all characters and events which only exist in TBL's Horus Heresy 3.0. They weren't relevant to the original fluff. Sevatar, the manner of Angron's ascension, etc, are symptoms of the change, not causes for it. In the original versions, he just ascended at some point, the details of which weren't really relevant or necessary to the storyline. And Ultramar was just the 11 planets.

Yeah, I forgot to finish my post.

Basically, it is a great idea and one that I'd support but as far as I know, except for Loken's little sortie, no one made it from the surface to the orbit once the shooting began because the Word Bearers held the spaceports until the end. At least, none have been recorded. Personally, until something says it didn't happen, I would be willing to let it happen especially if it is well-written(I doubt you'd have a problem with that part) but there are those who look at even the smallest change in fluff as some sort of great heresy. Not that any of those people are here. I think.

[Unintentional Batman]

I'm still angry at them retconning Leman Russ into a primarch, so I can't really feel for you young ones and changes to the new fluff.

[Kol Saresk]

Wow. That happened way back when the Ultramarines were xenos-collaborators born of traitor stock.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Apparently they are still Xenos Collaborators according to the Ally Chart.

[Kol Saresk]

Apparently they are still Xenos Collaborators according to the Ally Chart.

Xenos fornicators then?

[Gree]

I'm a bit confused, is this commentary on the retcons?

 

I never really appreciated or saw the sense for the many retcons in the Heresy, especially with the Ultramarines. In fact my disappointment in Know No Fear was so great I had to drop my Ultramarines. The fact that Guilliman was appearantly a traitor only made it worse.

 

Still it had some benefits. Crimson Fist introduced me to my love of Heresy-era Fists and I have a 2000pnt Emperor's Children army because of Fulgrim.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I don't really like the direction they took with the Ultramarines either, but once they decided to expand the Heresy timeline, it no longer made any sense for them to just be "too far away". I'm keeping an open mind about this Unremembered Empire novel, but really we're starting to get into "Huh" territory. If the Blood Angels fight at Terra, and the Ultramarines don't, what held them back? I'm really not too terribly sure that I like the implication of that answer. Mostly because it seems kinda... dumb.

 

But if anything soured me on the Ultramarines, it was the Uriel Ventris series. That was really the gravest crime against them.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, there is an ebook I think that has a detachment of Ultramarines that were apparently the last line of defense between Horus' forces and the Sol system. Going by that description, it would seem like it takes place at the seventh year of the Heresy. Its possible that the Ultramarines and their superior numbers decided that instead of running straight to Terra, they'd emulate the Raven Guard and many of the Istvaan V survivors and take the fight the Traitors. They'd certainly have the numbers to fight on multiple fronts and start bringing order back to the Eastern Fringe, the Ultima Segmentum and Segmentum Sol. Start repairing the damage Horus has done while stopping many of the more damaging enemy fleets and detachments.

 

EDIT: I doubt Abnett is going to make the Ultramarines actual Traitors. Just that they're going to do some things that to the more active, less analytical imaginations are going to jump the gun and call them Traitors, the same way people started calling the Lion a definite Traitor after reading the short story The Lion without properly considering the information. An act that I admit guilt to, until I went back and read it and some relating material until I formed a more complete picture.

 

Although, just for curiosity's sake, Veteran Sergeant, what have you found dissatisfying with the Ultramarines' Heresy portrayal?

[Wade Garrett]

The fact that Guilliman was appearantly a traitor only made it worse.

 

Johnson? Is that you?

Since when do stasis cells come with internet access?

 

As far as I can tell, the case against Rob is that he and Sanguinus were both in Ultramar, Sang made it to Terra before Guilliman did, therefore the Ultramarines are filthy heretical traitors.

 

Meanwhile, what's this? The Wolves and Scars were in the same system, Khan headed home to Poppa E, and Russ didn't until later. ERMAGERD TEH WULVES IZ TRAETURS!

 

Corax was ON Terra with Dorn and he left...MOAR TRAETURS!

 

Geez. At this rate it's starting to seem like the only truly loyal Primarchs were Ferrous Manus, Alpharius, and maybe Vulkan.

[Conn Eremon]

How is Dorn not part of that list, Wade? When Ferrus Manus charged onto a guillotine, Dorn defended the Emperor. When Corax beat the minotaur in the Terran labyrinth and then took off, Dorn stood his ground. When Guilliman and Sanguinius held hands on Macragge, Dorn wrung his on Terra. When Russ and the Lion blamed each other for being late, Dorn was there from beginning to end. While Vulkan was having tea with Curze, Dorn was preparing for guests. When the Khan was running about, hair to the wind, Dorn shaved his own head!

 

I'm ashamed to know you.

[Gree]

 

The fact that Guilliman was appearantly a traitor only made it worse.

Johnson? Is that you?

Since when do stasis cells come with internet access?

 

As far as I can tell, the case against Rob is that he and Sanguinus were both in Ultramar, Sang made it to Terra before Guilliman did, therefore the Ultramarines are filthy heretical traitors.

 

Meanwhile, what's this? The Wolves and Scars were in the same system, Khan headed home to Poppa E, and Russ didn't until later. ERMAGERD TEH WULVES IZ TRAETURS!

 

Corax was ON Terra with Dorn and he left...MOAR TRAETURS!

 

Geez. At this rate it's starting to seem like the only truly loyal Primarchs were Ferrous Manus, Alpharius, and maybe Vulkan.

 

You forgot Dorn, who was steadfastly loyal to the Emperor until the end. I hold Dorn as true example of a loyal, obedient son, not like Guilliman.

 

While other Primarchs had their failings and falttered, it was Guilliman who had that short story that had him admitting that the Imperium Secundus was ''treasonous''. No other Primarch tried to create their own Empire, even if they failed to get to the Emperor on time. So I don't blame Russ or Corax as much as I blame Guilliman.

 

I do find it endlessly amusing that the Alpha Legion evidently are secret loyalists, or at least are divided between loyalists and traitors. It's almost like Alpharius and Guilliman had reversed their positions pre-novels.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I think that's a bit overdramatic though. Even with Imperium Secundus, Guilliman is still technically loyal to the Emperor's vision.

 

It doesn't mean the human thought process at TBL behind that plot twist isn't seriously flawed. But they've kinda written themselves into a few corners with the events of other novels. It's rather troubling, considering ultimately this series is headed towards the most important event of the 40K universe, and there's not a lot of confidence about the editorial vision that is curating it.

[calgar101]

Guilliman has been described as being loyal to the Emperor's vision, the Primarchs role were to create and protect the Imperium. Guilliman has the ability to see that there could be an Imperium beyond the Emperor, he does not see the two as mutually exclusive. He shares the Emperor's vision and see's him and is determined to carry it out no matter what; I'd wager that had Guilliman not have been re-united with the Emperor he would have made his own Imperium. Remember Guilliman is quite pragmatic, what point is there saving Terra to then watch the rest of the Imperium fall to the traitors or worse?

[Noctus Cornix]

Dorn is also a true example of a complete failure. No matter how hard the poor fool tried, he could not save Terra nor his father. And thus such shame was stained upon his soul until his dying day and his chapter for 10,000 years to come.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, I think Guilliman's motive is protect what he can. Even following the events of Calth, the XIIIth Legion is still the largest of all the Legions and one of the more coordinated Loyalist Legions(if not the most coordinated). But, there's one big problem. At one year into the Heresy, he is stuck in Ultramar. So, he probably went with the "Protect what I can" method with protecting all remaining 400 worlds of Ultramar that he can protect. At two years into the Heresy, we see him directing a detachment of Iron Hands to claim the warp engine that the Lion ultimately took control of. Apparently the Ruinstorm is weakening since he's able to invite the Lion to Ultramar, an invitation which the Lion accepts at the end of The Lion and presumably heads there after the events of Prince of Crows. I think it's just one those things, Guilliman is like an elephant. Takes him a while to get started, but once he's there you want to do nothing but get out of the way.

 

And if I had to guess, I'm willing to bet that Guilliman will come out of Ultramar swinging, but also trying to do damage control. Send as many pieces to as many places as possible. It is a common tactic. At Armatura, there were thousands of Evocatii. One of their tactics was to split into groups of hundred, defend as much ground as possible. Unfortunately, it didn't work against the XII ground forces because the World Eaters only attacked one position at a time. So even though they were outnumbered, the World Eaters were able to overpower each individual position.

 

Guilliman is probably hoping to do the same. The Traitors have spread themselves thin, attacking planets all over the galaxy. If Guilliman sends larger, more coordinated groups after each position, there is a chance. And if Guilliman can get even one Legion to agree to his tactics, the chances improve. Especially if it is one as intact as the Iron Hands, who have so far only lost one Expedition, albeit of unknown strength and composition except for the 10,000 Morlocks that were the vanguard at Istvaan V.

[Wade Garrett]

In Angel Exterminatus we see that the Imperial Fists are building a fortress on the world of Hydra Cordatus...a world whose populace seems just a bit too loyal to Dorn and the Fists instead of Big E. Where a Fist officer thinks to himself how cool it is that the VII Legion has started borrowing from Guilliman's (TREACHEROUS!) playbook on bringing worlds into the Imperium.

 

Then we have the Lightning Tower short story. Dorn thinks that if Horus explains his reasons for rebellion he might agree? Dorn wishes the two Primarchs who were killed by the Wolves for being traitors were with him on Terra?

 

TRAITOR! ROGAL DORN IS A TREACHEROUS TRAITOR WHO IS PRONE TO BETRAYAL! The only thing that stopped him from taking over the Imperium post Heresy was the traitor Guilliman beating him to it.

[calgar101]

That explains why Dorn was so grief stricken when he found the Emperor's body! He was upset that Horus had beaten him to it! It is all clear now!

[Kol Saresk]

Or maybe he was stricken to see that the Emperor killed Horus. I mean think about it, walk in on a dying Horus, a dead Sanguinius and a dead Emperor, kill Horus and be the hero... no one need ever know.....

[Gree]

I think that's a bit overdramatic though. Even with Imperium Secundus, Guilliman is still technically loyal to the Emperor's vision.

 

He is loyal to the Emperor's vision, but not to the Emperor himself. In essence Guilliman and the XIII could be considered the tenth traitor legion. Guilliman may have never worshiped Chaos or Horus, but he's still betraying the Emperor in a way.

 

Dorn is also a true example of a complete failure. No matter how hard the poor fool tried, he could not save Terra nor his father. And thus such shame was stained upon his soul until his dying day and his chapter for 10,000 years to come.

 

Better a loyal failure than a successful traitor. Loyalty to the Emperor is it's own reward.

 

In Angel Exterminatus we see that the Imperial Fists are building a fortress on the world of Hydra Cordatus...a world whose populace seems just a bit too loyal to Dorn and the Fists instead of Big E. Where a Fist officer thinks to himself how cool it is that the VII Legion has started borrowing from Guilliman's (TREACHEROUS!) playbook on bringing worlds into the Imperium.

 

A disloyal officer exposing views counter to common Legion doctrine. Dorn only ever wanted recruits, not vassals. That's for guys like Guilliman and Perturabo, who take every chance they can to collect taxes from their subjects. The Iron Warriors did the Fists a favor by taking him out before his rot could spread to the rest of the VII.

 

Then we have the Lightning Tower short story. Dorn thinks that if Horus explains his reasons for rebellion he might agree? Dorn wishes the two Primarchs who were killed by the Wolves for being traitors were with him on Terra?

 

And yet Dorn was still at Terra, loyally defending the walls. Dorn certainly had doubts and flaws, but among the Primarchs he was the most loyal to the Emperor.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Dorn was an unstable lunatic, but he was loyal. 

 

Honestly, as I've been catching up on some bits of the fluff this last week which I'd forgotten the details of (it's a slow season at work, lol), the Imperial Fists, good lord. Those poor bastards.  Dorn murders a huge chunk of his Marines in a trap because he doesn't believe they are disciplined enough accept the breakup of the Legion?  And at a time when the Space Marine Legions were desperately short of numbers. Then goes off the deep end and resolves to die? 

[Conn Eremon]

We have seen that Guilliman places greater importance on the continued life of the Imperium than that of the Emperor. That does not make him a traitor in the slightest, nor does it place him anywhere near the realm of the traitors. I really do not understand how that can be seen as such. Is a general on US's West Coast did his best to protect it when under attack a traitor, just because he doesn't show up on the East Coast when DC is under attack? Why would that make sense?

[Kol Saresk]

He's kin of like that model child whose dad dies so they just into drugs and alcohol and soon make Lindsay Lohan look like a sane individual.

[calgar101]

Even Primarchs can have a break down, it is just 100x worse when they do.