Changes to Calth and other HH retcons

[Gree]

We have seen that Guilliman places greater importance on the continued life of the Imperium than that of the Emperor. That does not make him a traitor in the slightest, nor does it place him anywhere near the realm of the traitors. I really do not understand how that can be seen as such. Is a general on US's West Coast did his best to protect it when under attack a traitor, just because he doesn't show up on the East Coast when DC is under attack? Why would that make sense?

 

Guilliman and the Ultramarines even use the word ''treason'' when referring to the Imperium Secundus. Guilliman refers to the Codex Astartes as ''words of treason,'' Your example might be a better one if that General was actively forming his own splinter state and trying to pull away renforcements from the East Coast while doing so.

 

Certainly everybody has their own interpretation and opinion, but I personally find Guilliman's own words rather telling at least.

[Marshal Rohr]

He wasn't unstable until the Emperor died. 150+ years of being a top tier Primarch shouldn't just be discarded because of a 7 to 10 year period of Primarch PTSD.

[calgar101]

Didn't he say how others would view it as treason? He wasn't forming Ultramar whilst the Heresy was kicking off, Ultramar had already existed for 200+ years by now. In those years not one Primarch raised an eyebrow at this and the Emperor praised Guilliman for what he was doing. Khârn whilst he is part of a force burning Ultramar even comments on what a splendid job Roboute ha done turning an entire sector into a model of Imperial rule.

[Kol Saresk]

And the description is that for Unremembered Empire, others might see it as treason. Meaning Guilliman has a difficult choice and he might be considered a traitor by some of his primarchs for doing it. The same way the Lion thought of Russ as a traitor for dragging his butt. Or the way everyone overreacted and called the Lion a traitor because he gave some seige engines to Perturabo. Or the way others called the Lion a Traitor because he apparently spent the entire Heresy on the sideline. Or the way some people still overreact and call Russ and the Space Wolves Traitors for possibly breaking the Edict of Nikea. And so on and so forth. We won't know what he is doing and whether or not he actually is a traitor(perceived, actual or otherwise) until we see Unremembered Empire. Until then, there are no facts to prove it. Just a few words from a guilt-ridden Primarch who has currently failed in his oath to protect one hundred of his five hundred worlds and a synopsis, the latter of which implies perception of being a traitor but no actuality while the former implies self-recrimination. Both are circumstantial evidence.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think whatever the Unrememebered Empire is, it will be Unrememebered because Sanguinius won't go along with it and come back to Terra. The Khan comes back only because he is closest. Everybody else is just off somewhere for some reason yet unrevealed.

 

 

 

 

Or, we will be in for a massive rewrite of what we think we know, and the Siege of Terra will change from previous versions. It wouldn't be a bad thing the more I think about it. It would be kind of cool. Sadly though, the Horus Heresy lasted only Seven Years and at the rate BL has been unable to advance the timeline, we are into like year Five of the series and only on year two of the Heresy in terms of released books. FW covered more time in one book than BL did in three years.

[Veteran Sergeant]

He wasn't unstable until the Emperor died. 150+ years of being a top tier Primarch shouldn't just be discarded because of a 7 to 10 year period of Primarch PTSD.

It's not entirely to his fault. Corax and Russ just wandered off when the Imperium needed them the most. Talk about irresponsible, lol. 

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah but Forgeworld is just the spark notes. Even then, Forgeworld has already said that everything that goes into the books will either be from BL or they will do their best to not contradict any future background. Although that'll depend more on authors like Gav Thorpe and editors than Forgeworld.

 

But if Forgeworld is taking cues from BL, it might be just as long before they finish it to.

[Conn Eremon]

Sadly though, the Horus Heresy lasted only Seven Years and at the rate BL has been unable to advance the timeline, we are into like year Five of the series and only on year two of the Heresy in terms of released books. FW covered more time in one book than BL did in three years.

I wouldn't mind if BL took it a bit slower. There's enough ground to cover in this series to last us a long time, and I'd rather not skip it all. Who cares if they haven't gotten to the Siege yet?

 

I'd continue discussing Guilliman, but all I'd be doing is repeating calgar101 and Kol Saresk.

[Veteran Sergeant]

 

 

Or, we will be in for a massive rewrite of what we think we know, and the Siege of Terra will change from previous versions. It wouldn't be a bad thing the more I think about it. It would be kind of cool. Sadly though, the Horus Heresy lasted only Seven Years and at the rate BL has been unable to advance the timeline, we are into like year Five of the series and only on year two of the Heresy in terms of released books. FW covered more time in one book than BL did in three years.

Yeah, but that's by design. If they move the story along, they get to the end faster. And if they get to the end faster, they stop selling more books. It's all filler at this point. Nothing released in the last three years has been relevant to the Horus Heresy.

 

I went back and checked the "Collected Visions" storyine, and it goes straight from Istvaan to Terra as well, with no interlude aside from mentioning the Night Lords and Alpha Legion being sent off to delay reinforcements. So they've even retconned their own previous material, lol.

[Wade Garrett]

I don't think it's a stretch to say the Iron Cage was basically Dorn going full Angron. You never go full Angron.

 

To be a bit more serious, Dorn's whole character is that he does not bend. Ever. No compromise, not even in the face of the apocalypse. He's the rock the enemy will shatter upon.

 

The problem is when you put someone like that in a situation like the Imperium post Heresy, being unable to bend means you break. I don't think Dorn deliberately set out to get his Legion killed, but I do think subconsciously he would have rather died fighting than continued to live with his grief and pain, and he dragged his whole Legion along for the ride.

 

Just like Angron.

[Kol Saresk]

And if they end it faster, I'd be pissed off. No offense, but if I wanted sparknotes, I'd just read the IA articles again. Or just wait for Forgeworld to publish one book a year. I want the filler. I want the leavened bread. I want the story. I want the Heresy in its entirety.

 

.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

He wasn't unstable until the Emperor died. 150+ years of being a top tier Primarch shouldn't just be discarded because of a 7 to 10 year period of Primarch PTSD.

It's not entirely to his fault. Corax and Russ just wandered off when the Imperium needed them the most. Talk about irresponsible, lol. 

 

The fact Corax wanted to go back to Deliverance instead of staying at Terra was terrible writing. He could've easily built more legionaries on Terra and helped with the defense, but Gav wanted to add in the stupid AL subplot. 

 

Yeah but Forgeworld is just the spark notes. Even then, Forgeworld has already said that everything that goes into the books will either be from BL or they will do their best to not contradict any future background. Although that'll depend more on authors like Gav Thorpe and editors than Forgeworld.

 

But if Forgeworld is taking cues from BL, it might be just as long before they finish it to.

 

Calling Forge World spark notes isn't true. I just reread Betrayal this AM. All of the stuff about the pre-unity role of the Legions and the exposition on their organization and units is original. 

 

 

Sadly though, the Horus Heresy lasted only Seven Years and at the rate BL has been unable to advance the timeline, we are into like year Five of the series and only on year two of the Heresy in terms of released books. FW covered more time in one book than BL did in three years.

I wouldn't mind if BL took it a bit slower. There's enough ground to cover in this series to last us a long time, and I'd rather not skip it all. Who cares if they haven't gotten to the Siege yet?

 

I'd continue discussing Guilliman, but all I'd be doing is repeating calgar101 and Kol Saresk.

 

Please God, no slower. I could die in a car crash tomorrow without ever seeing the VII Legion Organization. That would be unacceptable.

 

 

 

 

Or, we will be in for a massive rewrite of what we think we know, and the Siege of Terra will change from previous versions. It wouldn't be a bad thing the more I think about it. It would be kind of cool. Sadly though, the Horus Heresy lasted only Seven Years and at the rate BL has been unable to advance the timeline, we are into like year Five of the series and only on year two of the Heresy in terms of released books. FW covered more time in one book than BL did in three years.

Yeah, but that's by design. If they move the story along, they get to the end faster. And if they get to the end faster, they stop selling more books. It's all filler at this point. Nothing released in the last three years has been relevant to the Horus Heresy.

 

I went back and checked the "Collected Visions" storyine, and it goes straight from Istvaan to Terra as well, with no interlude aside from mentioning the Night Lords and Alpha Legion being sent off to delay reinforcements. So they've even retconned their own previous material, lol.

You can have a Siege of Terra book, without :cuss things up. Its not like we needed the Hobbit or Prequel Trilogy to have the LotR trilogy or Original Trilogy of the series. 

 

And if they end it faster, I'd be pissed off. No offense, but if I wanted sparknotes, I'd just read the IA articles again. Or just wait for Forgeworld to publish one book a year. I want the filler. I want the leavened bread. I want the story. I want the Heresy in its entirety.

 

.

Be careful what you wish for. Unless Im mistaken what you'd like is more Prince of Crows-esque stories. What you will get is more Battle for the Abyss and Nemesis. A D-B and Dan Abnett can only do so much in one year. Most people want an Abnett/A D-B view on their legions. But sadly, one only has to look at what they divide amongst themselves to see what you get. McNeill will get the Ultramarines/Iron Warriors/Emperor's Children filler. Kyme will do Salamanders/Iron Hands. The newer authors will get unessential short stories and novellas that don't really feel Heresy-esque. A D-B is firmly in the Night Lords/Word Bearers/World Eaters corner. I don't know how many legions he'd be interested to take on, and he's never been much of a loyalist writer anyway (though he does occasionally, it obviously isn't his focus). 

 

Abnett is the storyline mover. Horus Rising, Prospero Burns, Legion, and Know No Fear? All major plot advancements, though Prospero Burns and Legion were arguably tangential to the main plot, so we could see a little more of the Prospero conflict and the outside influences of the Cabal on the Heresy.

[High MarshalGR]

I don't think it's a stretch to say the Iron Cage was basically Dorn going full Angron. You never go full Angron.

 

To be a bit more serious, Dorn's whole character is that he does not bend. Ever. No compromise, not even in the face of the apocalypse. He's the rock the enemy will shatter upon.

 

The problem is when you put someone like that in a situation like the Imperium post Heresy, being unable to bend means you break. I don't think Dorn deliberately set out to get his Legion killed, but I do think subconsciously he would have rather died fighting than continued to live with his grief and pain, and he dragged his whole Legion along for the ride.

 

Just like Angron.

 

Not far away, but not exactly the same if I may add. The purification of his Legion (or what was left since Sigismund with the portion of the Legion that became the Black Templars) via the entrance in a trap that was viewed just like the Pain Glove in a Legion scale allowing him and his Legion to atone for their sins (sins in IF interpretation of course) is what he and his Legion aimed at. They went willingly to purify themselves via pain and sacrifice or to die if they weren't worthy enough. So did Dorn decree while meditating upon the Pain Glove, and the IF were ready to go for it.

 

Dorn revealed to us he had a brilliant mind as far as warfare goes, so a man like that has some reasoning behind the "Hey, why don't we go to fall into a trap today? It will be fun!". His reasoning was one which can only be understood if you enter the IF mindset. Their motives aren't the cold, calculating ones the IW operate with. It's sheer willpower. If they are the unstoppable force they are willing to be, they will survive. If they break, they aren't. At least that's how I think they operate. They are suicidical/martyrs in many occassions, but that's their mondus operandi. They are fists that shouldn't meet resistance. If they do, they crush it. If they can't, they aren't themselves.

 

So I would say Dorn indeed "went Angron" as far as a far-away viewpoint goes, but if I look at the background of each, Dorn demanded purification to face the crisis his Legion faced before the Iron Cage, which was solved after it. Angron demanded carnage and blood for the sake of them as they are if you get what I mean. The result is pretty close between the two, but the motives are far apart, and they both matter for me.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

I don't think it's a stretch to say the Iron Cage was basically Dorn going full Angron. You never go full Angron.

 

To be a bit more serious, Dorn's whole character is that he does not bend. Ever. No compromise, not even in the face of the apocalypse. He's the rock the enemy will shatter upon.

 

The problem is when you put someone like that in a situation like the Imperium post Heresy, being unable to bend means you break. I don't think Dorn deliberately set out to get his Legion killed, but I do think subconsciously he would have rather died fighting than continued to live with his grief and pain, and he dragged his whole Legion along for the ride.

 

Just like Angron.

 

Not far away, but not exactly the same if I may add. The purification of his Legion (or what was left since Sigismund with the portion of the Legion that became the Black Templars) via the entrance in a trap that was viewed just like the Pain Glove in a Legion scale allowing him and his Legion to atone for their sins (sins in IF interpretation of course) is what he and his Legion aimed at. They went willingly to purify themselves via pain and sacrifice or to die if they weren't worthy enough. So did Dorn decree while meditating upon the Pain Glove, and the IF were ready to go for it.

 

Dorn revealed to us he had a brilliant mind as far as warfare goes, so a man like that has some reasoning behind the "Hey, why don't we go to fall into a trap today? It will be fun!". His reasoning was one which can only be understood if you enter the IF mindset. Their motives aren't the cold, calculating ones the IW operate with. It's sheer willpower. If they are the unstoppable force they are willing to be, they will survive. If they break, they aren't. At least that's how I think they operate. They are suicidical/martyrs in many occassions, but that's their mondus operandi. They are fists that shouldn't meet resistance. If they do, they crush it. If they can't, they aren't themselves.

 

So I would say Dorn indeed "went Angron" as far as a far-away viewpoint goes, but if I look at the background of each, Dorn demanded purification to face the crisis his Legion faced before the Iron Cage, which was solved after it. Angron demanded carnage and blood for the sake of them as they are if you get what I mean. The result is pretty close between the two, but the motives are far apart, and they both matter for me.

Sigismund and the Templars were at the Iron Cage. Per Blood and Fire. 

[Conn Eremon]

I said BL, not FW.

 

As for your comment about the author's spheres of influence, read Abnett's and AD-B's interview on the BL website. AD-B brings up the same misconception you did, and Abnett debunks it. Abnett's work in the series kind of prove that. They're better in quality, but not any more major than that.

[High MarshalGR]

Sigismund and the Templars were at the Iron Cage. Per Blood and Fire. 

 

Soz, just remembered that. Fortunately my post's point remains.

[Gree]

I don't think it's a stretch to say the Iron Cage was basically Dorn going full Angron. You never go full Angron.

 

To be a bit more serious, Dorn's whole character is that he does not bend. Ever. No compromise, not even in the face of the apocalypse. He's the rock the enemy will shatter upon.

 

The problem is when you put someone like that in a situation like the Imperium post Heresy, being unable to bend means you break. I don't think Dorn deliberately set out to get his Legion killed, but I do think subconsciously he would have rather died fighting than continued to live with his grief and pain, and he dragged his whole Legion along for the ride.

 

Just like Angron.

 

The Iron Cage though, was Dorn giving in. The Iron Cage occurred because Dorn compromised for once in his life.

[Kol Saresk]

Marshall, you misunderstand me. When I say sparknotes, I don't mean regurgitation. I mean they take the most important events relevant to the specific topic within those books and then put in those points. For example, the Golgotha section of the World Eaters.

 

We get a brief history of the sector, in which we find out that a group called the Brotherhood made up of mutants and Orks have conquered the entire sector and are currently laying siege to the Forge-world Saurm where they have driven the Mechanicus underground. We get a brief history of the Redjak(Sarum Mechanicus) and find that they are considered one of the more radical sects and have only had loose communications with Mars. We find out that the Imperium looked at Golgotha and the Brotherhood and went "Screw you, we're not going in there." We see that Angron went and said "Ha! That's not a slaughter! This is a slaughter!" and proceeded to demonstrate the word to the Brotherhood. Then we get a brief overview of the most important battle in the campaign, the liberation of Sarum. But that's really it. We get the "sparknotes" of the Golgathan Massacre. I want to see the totality of the Golgothan Massacre.

 

Also, you missed a progressive. Savage Weapons back in Age of Darkness is the story that put the Heresy at its second year. So far, the most "current" story is Prince of Crows in the Shadows of Treachery anthology. Unremembered Empire will be picking up from that milestone when it comes out.

[Marshal Rohr]

I said BL, not FW.

 

As for your comment about the author's spheres of influence, read Abnett's and AD-B's interview on the BL website. AD-B brings up the same misconception you did, and Abnett debunks it. Abnett's work in the series kind of prove that. They're better in quality, but not any more major than that.

 

Not trying to pick a fight, brother.

 

I'm just pointing out that in spite of what the authors may say, you can see a consistent trend by all authors in any genre to use and write from what they are most comfortable with. I'll break it down by my favorites.

 

A D-B:

-High number of human characters who are well respected and valued by members of the traitor legions. Lotara, Octavia, Septimus, Cyrene.

-Main PoV characters who are well respected, but have deep struggles. Talos, Khârn, Argel Tal.

-Loyalists who form a straight up and down archetype of their real world influences. Dark Angels champion, Boarding Marine from NL Trilogy, and Blood Angels from Soul Hunter.

-In universe exposition that clears up his views from previous work. Guilliman vs. Lorgar. Grimaldus in Blood and Fire. Dark Angels in Prince of Crows.

-Something about his main characters sets them apart from everyone else. Talos was a trouble-maker ad prescient. Grimaldus was a hardass chaplain. Khârn laments about the way the WE don't play nice with others, Nails, and Angron (arguably everyone does this though).

-Humanizing of space marines. Grimaldus in Blood and Fire. Talos giving a :cuss about his slaves. Argel Tal not liking being possessed. 

 

These variations of the same idea are in most of his work.

 

And not my favorite, but McNeill is hardly subtle about the rapeyness of Emperor's Children and their followers. And that wasn't degenerative. It happened almost immediately after Isstvan III. It was like everyone went to a rave one night and the ex never wore of.

[Marshal Rohr]

Marshall, you misunderstand me. When I say sparknotes, I don't mean regurgitation. I mean they take the most important events relevant to the specific topic within those books and then put in those points. For example, the Golgotha section of the World Eaters.

 

We get a brief history of the sector, in which we find out that a group called the Brotherhood made up of mutants and Orks have conquered the entire sector and are currently laying siege to the Forge-world Saurm where they have driven the Mechanicus underground. We get a brief history of the Redjak(Sarum Mechanicus) and find that they are considered one of the more radical sects and have only had loose communications with Mars. We find out that the Imperium looked at Golgotha and the Brotherhood and went "Screw you, we're not going in there." We see that Angron went and said "Ha! That's not a slaughter! This is a slaughter!" and proceeded to demonstrate the word to the Brotherhood. Then we get a brief overview of the most important battle in the campaign, the liberation of Sarum. But that's really it. We get the "sparknotes" of the Golgathan Massacre. I want to see the totality of the Golgothan Massacre.

 

Also, you missed a progressive. Savage Weapons back in Age of Darkness is the story that put the Heresy at its second year. So far, the most "current" story is Prince of Crows in the Shadows of Treachery anthology. Unremembered Empire will be picking up from that milestone when it comes out.

 

Im thinking in terms of major novels that move the storyline with big important bits like Betrayer. But, I understand your meaning. My personal feeling is that short stories like Prince of Crows are the periphery of the Heresy series, like the independent marvel movie like Iron Man 3, and things like Betrayer and Unremembered Empire are the Avengers movies. 

 

Sure, in Prince of Crows we get awesome stories and see our favorite characters and they end with something important happening (Sev breaking up the legion and Night Haunter hiding on the Lion's Flagship), but we don't get the 'meat' of the Heresy series like we did with Betrayer (Ultramar is being systematically neutralized before the traitors march on Terra). 

[Kol Saresk]

Fair enough. Personally, I liek both.

Although I was kind of disappointed with Iron Man 3.....

[Conn Eremon]

The whole Pepper Potts thing was poorly done. Not against the idea of her kicking :cuss , they just didn't set it up properly, making it unbelievable. That said, Ben Kingsley was a god damn riot.

 

M2 C, I hadn't taken your posts as wanting a fight, nor do I intend mine to be.

 

I will say that your list doesn't really say anything about choice of subject, just writing style once that choice is made. Though it did highlight just how similar AD-B and Abnett are, as far as generalized writing styles and literary habits go.

[Scribe]

Eh? I dont think Abnett or ADB are anywhere close to the same in style.

[Conn Eremon]

In the details, I agree vehemently so. But if you look at M2 C's list, I don't see anything that Abnett is not also known for, to some degree.

[calgar101]

Abnett and A-D-B are in my eyes the best two authors of the HH series and are equally as skilled but in different area's if that makes sense). There are exceptions (as always) but I would say that Abnett is not adverse to inventing/injecting new idea's into the Heresy (Legion for example, every idea bar the Twins was Dan's invention) whilst A-D-B tends to stick to the background a bit more. Both are still superbly talented authors.