Changes to Calth and other HH retcons

[Castellan Michael]

First of this is just my opinion upon the Ultra Marines post Calth to Codex Astrates.  Being and old long time player I have seen many recons and changes but this seems to be where Papa Smurf is currently. This is not a lit-review just my hypothesis. Please give back substance and reason not fan-boyness. 

 

It could look and has been suggested that Rob spent time developing his own little vision of what he thought the imperium should be. Maybe a successful ideal...but his steadfastness and loyalty to it is what not necessarily makes him  a traitor, but disloyal to the Emperor yes.

 

Instead of returning to defend Terra from Horus, he is caught up in stabilizing his own system.  But the worst insult is arriving after the siege is won and Dorn has left the building, forcing his own edicts upon the rest of the Imperium and on to the defenders of Terra.

 

Imagine it post Horus...the largest legion left arrives at Terra, and the Imperial fists leave to attempt to crush and finish the rebellion. The Council of Terra having just been shaken by a Space Marine attempt at an over through of the big-E, and here stands Rob professing we should make SMs less of a threat with my Codex Astartes. Of course they all agreed! Rob then proclaims himself "Lord Commander of the Imperium"! We all know who the Big-E choose to hold the line and represent the Imperium was Dorn.

 

Sure seems like Guilliman had a plan to take control and not being at the defense of Terra was apart of that plan. His legion will not suffer from more losses and maintains his perfect timing to proclaim regency. The council never realized the farce the Codex Astrartes truly was. Its only true divisions are of fellow loyalist legions and not the Ultra Marines. In name only do we see this within the "Primogenitors", all remaining loyal to Guilliman and the realm of Ultramar first not the imperium. And with Terra tamed and his brothers subdued Rob returns to Ultramar, leaving the Imperium to eventually erode becoming everything the Big-E stood against.  

 

The timing seems a bit to perfect for the biggest cou d'eta in all of 40k.

[Wade Garrett]

 

We all know who the Big-E choose to hold the line and represent the Imperium was Dorn.

 

Represent the Imperium.

 

Is that what we're calling yanking a Primarch and his Legion completely out of the Crusade and having them set up shop on the Throneworld, directly under the Emperor and Malcador's watchful eye?

 

Guilliman was trusted to be on the front line fighting wars and governing the Imperium. Dorn was trusted to stay at home and stand by the Emperor at parades. Unfortunately for everyone, the Horus Heresy happened, and the Primarch who wasn't trusted enough to carry the Aquila to the stars found himself coordinating the defense of Terra against the Traitor Legions while the Emperor was trying to hold a giant Warp rift closed, and we all know how THAT ended.

 

You had one job, Rogal! ONE JOB!

[Castellan Michael]

Represent as in first off and most important secularism. And the rights of all humans with in the greater imperiuim, freedom from the apprehension from xenos and chaos, and inquisition. Guillieman did nothing to control this nor hinder it, as the self proclaimed Lord Commander or the Imperium it shows his lack of caring what the Council becomes or just had no idea what the Emperor wanted it to be. 

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Abnett and A-D-B are in my eyes the best two authors of the HH series and are equally as skilled but in different area's if that makes sense). There are exceptions (as always) but I would say that Abnett is not adverse to inventing/injecting new idea's into the Heresy (Legion for example, every idea bar the Twins was Dan's invention)

 

The twins primarchs were his idea as well. I read an interview where he said (without trying to give away spoilers as the book had just come out) he had a HUGE idea about the XX Legion and wasn't sure that the people in charge would go for it, and he was completely astounded when they gave it the green light.

[Conn Eremon]

I don't think that was it. The twins were always present, just never outright stated. I don't remember exactly, but people here were talking about it as if Abnett was being told of this unknown fact that he would need to take into account, which was that there are two Primarchs of the Alpha Legion.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

We all know who the Big-E choose to hold the line and represent the Imperium was Dorn.

Represent the Imperium.

 

Is that what we're calling yanking a Primarch and his Legion completely out of the Crusade and having them set up shop on the Throneworld, directly under the Emperor and Malcador's watchful eye?

 

Guilliman was trusted to be on the front line fighting wars and governing the Imperium. Dorn was trusted to stay at home and stand by the Emperor at parades. Unfortunately for everyone, the Horus Heresy happened, and the Primarch who wasn't trusted enough to carry the Aquila to the stars found himself coordinating the defense of Terra against the Traitor Legions while the Emperor was trying to hold a giant Warp rift closed, and we all know how THAT ended.

 

You had one job, Rogal! ONE JOB!

You take a lot of liberty when you interpret fluff don't you?

[Wade Garrett]

You take a lot of liberty when you interpret fluff don't you?

In this case I think it's fair of you to use words like "distort", "twist", and "make things up". ;)

 

But no more than most of the accusations being thrown at poor Rob. HE DIDN'T ASK FOR MATT WARD TO WRITE THAT CODEX! HOW MUCH MORE MUST HE SUFFER TO ATONE!

[Veteran Sergeant]

The problem with that hypothesis Michael, is that the Ultramarines did almost all of the fighting during the Scouring. It wasn't like Guiliman hung out at Terra dictating terms. That all came afterwards. There was still the entirety of the Scouring where he was leading from the front and putting the Imperium back together.

 

He held the most power, and gave up nearly five times what the closest other Legion did. Eight times what Dorn did (after he murdered half his legion in the Iron Cage, lol). He was effectively Emperor II, and could have been, had he chosen so.

 

If Guilliman can be faulted for anything, it is not maintaining power and assuming the title his father did. The Imperium needed an Emperor, and he was the only one qualified for that job. I'd imagine we can probably blame his brothers for that. Dorn and Russ particularly wouldn't have been able to reconcile taking orders from Guilliman.

[Midwest]

I don't really like the direction they took with the Ultramarines either, but once they decided to expand the Heresy timeline, it no longer made any sense for them to just be "too far away". I'm keeping an open mind about this Unremembered Empire novel, but really we're starting to get into "Huh" territory. If the Blood Angels fight at Terra, and the Ultramarines don't, what held them back?

 

 

Most of it stems from the idea that what kept the Ultramarines out of the Battle of Terra was that they were on the far edge of the Galaxy and couldn't get there in time. Similarly, the Wolves and Dangels are not at Terra because they are also delayed.  The galaxy goes to pieces, but what it is are a lot of forces loyal to the Warmaster engaging in their own rebellions while Horus takes the traitor legions to Terra to knock off the Emprah.

 

Calth didn't exist in the "original" version of the Heresy. It was a retaliatory attack by the Word Bearers much later.  So originally, Horus's plan was to get to Terra while he had 7-9 Legions and the Emprah only had three to defend himself with. Once the Emprah was dead, the assumption was that he could consolidate and then deal with the remaining loyal legions either one at a time, or in follow on battles.

 

And it woulda worked, if it wasn't for those meddling kids.

 

Regarding the timeline, some things to keep in mind:

 

Prior to the White Dwarf IA series, the Heresy background indicated that the war was a 4-7 year long war, but it really only included details from the beginning (Istvaan, the Eisenstein, etc.) and the end (Battle for Terra, Emperor/Horus duel, etc.). There was never initially much, if anything, on the years in-between.

 

When the IA series was being written, a lot of writers wanted to include "their" legion in on the biggest piece of cake - the battle on Terra. Obviously, it's a bit boring if all 18 articles have the same thing happening again and again, so it was decided to break this up but keeping - arbitrarily, if necessary - some legions away from Terra. The WB/Ultra campaign being a prime example of this.

 

In the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex, Calth is mentioned as a dead world. No detail as to what happened is given, only its 'current' state in the 41st millennium as a lifeless world. This was used as the basis for retconning the Word Bearers and Ultramarines' Heresy timelines to include a major invasion of Ultramar by the WB in which Calth was the primary victim, a lasting reminder of how close the Word Bearers came to destroying Ultramar itself. It was not necessarily meant to be a developed, major story in its own right - more simply just a symbol of how furious the WB assault was and how far they pushed the Ultramarines to the brink of ruin (ie how entirely believable it should be that these two legions - the fanatical and first to fall WB and the large and unquestionably devout Ultramarines - never touch foot on Terra by the time the Heresy ends).

 

Other background decisions similarly come into play here as well. The Ultras had already been established as being essentially the lone loyalist legion to still be relatively intact after the Heresy, hence the prominence of Guilliman in reorganizing the Adeptus Astartes and the # of successor chapters the Ultras have had compared to others. With the IA, in a parallel fashion, and to distinguish the Word Bearers from the Alpha Legion, the Word Bearers were emphasized as a legion that fought as a single, entire legion (the 2nd edition Chaosdex, for example, had already established the notion that the Alpha Legion fought as a more shadowy force that seeded cults throughout the Imperium, something which also implied a similar level of "faith" as the Word Bearers, at least in the sense of their promotion/use of devout human Chaos followers throughout dozens if not hundreds of systems and sectors).

 

Point being - the Ultramarines had already been established as a legion that more or less survived the Heresy as a whole, and it was desired to establish the Word Bearers as a similarly intact "whole" that did not break up during or in the immediate aftermath of the Heresy. Thus, a major confrontation - one putting Ultramar itself at stake, no less - between two legions depicted as somewhat monolithic would help to explain how they were now more or less completely absent from the battles on Terra, unlike other forces that headed there or at least were inclined / capable of sending large contingents.

 

Obviously, with Black Library and modern GW writers, this has continued to evolve. But just as with the original background, the story of Calth and the WB/Ultra war was simply a way of updating the background within the larger context of updating 18 separate legion backgrounds (and the overall background of a pivotal 40k moment/era - the Heresy), while including a relatively 'arbitrary' change to the background as a way to have a reason to keep the Word Bearers and Ultramarines away from Terra.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I'd be interesting to see the source that puts the Heresy at 4-7 years "originally". I'm not saying it isn't there, but there is literally no mention of a timeline in any of the 1st or 2nd Edition fluff that I've seen to include both RoC books, C:UM, C:C2E, the core books for 2nd Edition, the 1st Edition Space Marine (Epic) rulebook, the 3rd Edition core book book nor C:CSM3E.

 

All of the places where the Heresy gets more than a handful of paragraphs still fails to mention any length to the Heresy. The longest, and most detailed account yet, Collected Visions, makes no mention of the time, nor of any significant battles in between Istvaan and Terra. I agree there seem to be some disparities, but ultimately, the fluff didn't originally consider the loss at Terra to be the end of the Heresy. Even the original epic rules just describe the loss at Terra thusly: "With Horus dead, the  Rebels were thrown back from Terra. Soon teh whole Sol system was recovered. but across the galaxy, the battles continue - the Rebels have been denied a swift victory, and the fate of Humanity still hangs in the balance. Throughout the Imperium there is war, the most dreadful war that Mankind has ever known. For the first time, Space Marines fight their fellow Marines -"

 

I think this is a case of people confusing the seven year long Scouring (up to the Second Founding) as the Heresy. But I'd be truly interested to see some source that definitely lays out a rough or even exact timeline of the Heresy prior to 2005/6 and the start of the HH novel series. The Black Library invented the idea of the Horus Heresy lasting seven years for this novel series, just like they expanded the sizes of the Legions by about tenfold, etc. The book series has been around so long, people have just assumed it was always seven years.

[High MarshalGR]

The problem with that hypothesis Michael, is that the Ultramarines did almost all of the fighting during the Scouring. It wasn't like Guiliman hung out at Terra dictating terms. That all came afterwards. There was still the entirety of the Scouring where he was leading from the front and putting the Imperium back together.

 

He held the most power, and gave up nearly five times what the closest other Legion did. Eight times what Dorn did (after he murdered half his legion in the Iron Cage, lol). He was effectively Emperor II, and could have been, had he chosen so.

 

If Guilliman can be faulted for anything, it is not maintaining power and assuming the title his father did. The Imperium needed an Emperor, and he was the only one qualified for that job. I'd imagine we can probably blame his brothers for that. Dorn and Russ particularly wouldn't have been able to reconcile taking orders from Guilliman.

 

I can understand what Michael means, and while I do agree that Guilliman didn't handle the Imperium as the Emperor would have, they are different people anyway and Guilliman's administrative skills were proven through time.

 

 Ido agree with Brother-Sergeant, since the Scouring was up to Guilliman and a few other Legions which were in fighting shape, he took the mantle of Lord Commander and not the Imperium's tyrant or monarch etc, thus his duties were pre-ordained and he took certain juristriction from the High Lords of Terra without replacing them or replacing the Emperor as the ruler of mankind, something he would have done if he really wanted to go heresy-style. The way he enforced the Codex wasn't the most pleasant, but still the SW, for example, found a way to bypass it. Simply Guilliman is like the goverment. No matter what happens, even if he is or isn't responsible, he will still be blamed. 

[Legatus]

In 1st Edition it does seem as though the FIghting on Istvaan and Terra as well as teh following "scouring" period were all considered to be part of the Horus Heresy.

 

"As news of the Warmaster's defeat spread through the Imperium widespread fighting was renewed. (...) The fighting continued another seven years before the last rebel formations were destryed or exiled.

(...)

The destroyed Chapters were slowly re-established using what gene-seed had been saved. Many systems, including Davin and Isstvan, were cleansed and placed under the protection of the Inquisition.

(...)

The Traitor Legions and their dead Warmaster vanished into the Eye of Terror. The First Inter-Legionary War - the Horus Heresy - lasted for less than a decade, but it nearly destroyed the Imperium."

(1E, 'Realms of Chaos - Slaves to Darkness', p. 243)

 

Those seven years for the scouring, not the initial Heresy (Istvaan to Terra), seem to be used in 2nd Edition as well, although here the lore distinguishes between the 'Horus Heresy' and the 'Scouring' as separate periods.

 

"As news of the Warmaster's defeat spread out from ancient Terra loyalists attacked rebels with renewed vigour. Hard on the heels of the news came loyalist reinforcements and teh tide of battle turned decisively against the rebels. The battles still raged on long and hard for a full seven years before the last strongholds were crushed and the last rebel formations were destroyed or exiled."

(2E, Codex Chaos, p. 11)

"The confusion and disorder following the Horus Heresy had left the Imperium weak and vulnerable. (...) Within a decade order wasrestored to the Imperium.

(...)

The Second Founding of the Space Marines was decreed seven years after the death of Horus."

(2E, Codex Ultramarines, p. 13)

 

It may well be that those seven years of the Scouring were internally confused to be the duration of the initial Horus Heresy. Though I thought I had read in an older source about the Heresy lasting a few years. Perhaps I can find something tomorrow. Or perhaps I was mistaken.

[Midwest]

I'd be interesting to see the source that puts the Heresy at 4-7 years "originally". I'm not saying it isn't there, but there is literally no mention of a timeline in any of the 1st or 2nd Edition fluff that I've seen to include both RoC books, C:UM, C:C2E, the core books for 2nd Edition, the 1st Edition Space Marine (Epic) rulebook, the 3rd Edition core book book nor C:CSM3E.

 

Not quite - Slaves to Darkness implies the rebellion to Siege of Terra may have been a year or less. There's no time given for Davin to Isstvan, but it's stated that in the midst of the fighting, the Emperor ordered 7 legions to launch a 'crusade against Horus' which took more than 180 days to "plan and launch" (241), leading to the destruction of three at Isstvan V.

 

After this, Horus assaults earth, and on the 55th day the rebels reached the Inner Palace (241). The Emperor's assault on Horus' barge appears to happen not long after this. A seven year date is mentioned (243) as a time of continued fighting "before the last rebel formations were destroyed or exiled", but in this timeline it appears to happen *prior* to the Emperor's death/ascension to the throne, which occurs after the remaining rebels were killed or forced into the Eye of Terror.

 

At this point, the account summarizes - and I quote the bottom left column of page 243 - "The First Inter-Legionary War - the Horus Heresy - lasted less than a decade, but it nearly destroyed the Imperium".

 

Excluding the seven years as you do, that still leaves 2-3 years for the Heresy "proper" while still roughly staying under the "less than a decade" hard limit specified by this account. The only specified elements prior to the clean-up is a rough total of 235 days between the time it took to launch the Imperial counter-offensive and the minimum 55 days of Horus' siege of Terra. No timeline is given for the time between Horus' "fall" at Davin, the subsequent spread of Chaos corruption to the five legions under his direct command, and the initial massacre at Isstvan III, which results in loyalist Marines realizing Horus' corruption and the subsequent Eisenstein episode. Nor for the time after the massacre, during what appears to be a separate, initial invasion of Terra by the rebel Mechanicus factions that comes about after the Inquisition appears to pre-emptively attempt to purge the Mechanicus after the Eisenstein reports on Horus' fall. The apparent defeat of this Mechanicus invasion leads to the aforementioned crusade against Horus, which itself isn't time-lined (apart from the 180 day planning).

 

So we have:

 

Stage 1: Davin to Isstvan III (no times given)

Stage 2: Adeptus Mechanicus Martian Civil War / Invasion of Terra (no times given)

Stage 3: Emperor plans crusade against Horus (180 days)

Stage 4: Crusade leads to destruction of three legions at Isstvan V (no times given)

Stage 5: Horus launches counter-compaign that leads to Terra (no times given)

Stage 6: Siege of Terra (at least 55 days)

Stage 7: Horus' death leads to renewed Imperial fighting which destroys or pushes rebels into the Eye of Terror (7 years).

 

I would argue firstly that your assertion that no original timeline was given was incorrect. There are gaping holes, but we know that it lasted a minimum 235 days - although the gaps obviously indicate closer to at least a full year if not more. Additionally, the detail that the war lasted "less than 10 years" indicates a likely minimum of 1-3 years for Davin-to-Horus's Death if the seven years of "scouring" are included, or 1-9 years of Davin-to-Death if - like you - the scouring is NOT included.

 

I would argue secondly that, in the original Horus Heresy timeline, the "scouring" is not separate from the Heresy itself, but a part of it - in the account given in Slaves to Darkness, which I believe is the first detailed account given, the Heresy doesn't end with the defeat of Horus, but the defeat of the rebel forces as a whole and the ascension of the Emperor to the Golden Throne.

[Veteran Sergeant]

But that's not the discussion. It is whether or not it lasts seven years from Istvaan V to Terra, of which there has been shown no clear source. It is simply people mistaking the Post-Terra events originally referred to as part of the "Heresy" in the 1st Ed fluff, which was later named the Scouring. Your argument is entirely one of semantics ad niggling on small details, not something actually rooted in any kind of strong argument.

 

Like I said in the beginning. Seven years was the post-Terra fighting (known in the "modern" 40K fluff as the Scouring). The period before that has no timeline, except to fall under this nebulous "less than a decade minus seven or so" number. The duration of the battle of Terra was never in doubt though. Simply what transpired between Istvaan and Terra and whether or not there was a campaign to Earth, or just a battle there and on Mars. Clearly the old fluff seems to suggest, fairly consistently, that the other fighting was separate from Horus's push to Terra, and that he went there more or less straight from Istvaan (or Isstvan, depending on your spelling preference, lol). 

 

This discussion is getting off track in a mad dash for certain parties to be "right" by way of twisting language, rather than to discuss the topic at hand.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, the matter of time is somewhat part of the discussion. Your claim is that because the old fluff mentions Istvaan III and then V, and then Terra, that Horus must have went straight to Terra, due to the lack of a campaign being mentioned, while other battles had been going on, such as Kor Phaeron had been orchestrating Calth(Word Bearers IA article) and so on. Others have claimed that there is no change. Merely a revealing of previously undisclosed events. Black Library has repeatedly said that the Heresy will be seven years long, in the time line. There is nothing that says it didn't used to be seven years long. And the other side, nothing says it did take seven years.

 

So actually what some of the changes are coming down to are semantics and small details.

 

Now, some changes are subtle. For example, in the Ultramarines IA article, when Ultramar was referred to in the Heresy era, it was referred to as being all the planets near Macragge. In the 40K era, only eight planets are named. But then when Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks, it moves in a straight but between attacking Prandium and Macragge, it attacks a planet called Sybari, a former Fortress-World that was serving as a base for the Death Shadows. Now, obviously there is some sort of discrepancy. If Sybari is between Prandium and Macragge, then the 40K era Ultramar must obviously not be all the worlds surrounding Macragge, unlike the GC-era Ultramar. It already implies that there was some sort of giving of ground between the GC and 40K.

 

BL has taken that blank implication, ran with it and made every world "near" Macragge to number 500.

 

Then we get to the Raven Guard. After Istvaan V, Corax originally attempted cloning. And it failed. So he used the mutants as footsoldiers and then after the Heresy(or the Scouring, don't recall which) he put down all of the survivors. As a result of tampering with the gene-seed in such a manner, it became extremely unstable. Now, they aren't clones. They're accelerated Astartes using virtually blank gene-seed that had been programmed with the same parameters as regular RG gene-seed. And it wasn't that the process failed. It was sabotaged.

 

Where Ultramar is something of grabbing a loose thread and seeing where it went and then interpreting it in that manner. Those are changes only because they are never before seen. Meanwhile, the RG mutants are a blatant contradiction to the earlier fluff.

 

Basically, just because the older fluff didn't mention a campaign betweenterra and Istvaan, it doesn't mean there wasn't a campaign.

 

So in a way, we are debating small details and semantics. We're saying that because it wasn't here earlier, it is a complete change to be here now. But that isn't a change, it's an addition. Now, on the subject of things that were here earlier, but are now different, those are changes. How Calth went, the RG mutants, the Edict of Nikea, these things are changes. Ultramar, the length of the Heresy, and the Thramas Crusade, these are additions. These might just be "small details and semantics" but when we're dealing with an overarching idea such as the Heresy, enough small details and semantics can change how the entire thing looks.

[Legatus]

 

Now, some changes are subtle. For example, in the Ultramarines IA article, when Ultramar was referred to in the Heresy era, it was referred to as beingall the planets near Macragge. In the 40K era, only eight planets are named. But then when Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks, it moves in a straight but between attacking Prandium and Macragge, it attacks a planet called Sybari, a former Fortress-World that was serving as a base for the Death Shadows. Now, obviously there is some sort of discrepancy. If Sybari is between Prandium and Macragge, then the 40K era Ultramar must obviously not be all the worlds surrounding Macragge, unlike the GC-era Ultramar. It already implies that there was some sort of giving of ground between the GC and 40K.

 

Sybari was not between Prandium and Macragge in the 5th Edition Codex Tyranids. Here Sybari is a bit farther away from Macragge than Prandium, and it is being attacked by a different "tendril" of the Hive Fleet than Prandium. Is there a different Map in the new Codex Space Marines? 

 

 

 

BL has taken that blank implication, ran with it and made every world "near" Macragge to number 500.

 

According to older sources, the worlds of Ultramar were essentially the same after the Heresy as they had been before Guilliman had been found, and had been throughout the Great Crusade. Making it 500 worlds during the Great Crusade and less afterwards is a retcon, not an expansion of previously unknown material. 

[Cerelius]

I would suggest you read the old "Epic" game if any of you still have a copy. I've still got an original for well over a decade ago, and I'm pretty sure it took around seven years back then. But don't quote me on that I'd have to go fish it out. 

[Kol Saresk]

Apologies on Sybari and Prandium.

 

Which specific older material? My assumption goes to Codex: Ultramarines from 2nd Edition?

 

EDIT: Out of curiosity, could you perhaps show the map that lists Sybari as being attacked by a tendril? Every map I keep finding shows Behemoth as one giant mass that became more and more compact as it neared Macragge with no shown tendrils and they don't even list all of the planets. Not saying you're wrong, just that I am unable to find the information.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/f/fe/Tyranids_incursions.jpg

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/8/8e/Behemoth_and_Leviathan_invasion.jpg

[Legatus]

Yes, the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, specifically. Though that same material was repeated in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines as well, so it should not be considered outdated. (I don't consider 2nd Edition material outdated anyways, but some people might.) 

 

[As the Emperor reaches Macragge for the first time] "Spacecraft from Macragge ran regular routes between the local systems, bringing raw materials and more people to the flourishing world."

(...)

"Within a year [after the Emperor discoverd Roboute Guilliman and relocated the base of the Ultramarines to Macragge] a training base was established, and recruiting began on the planet Macragge and surrounding worlds."

(2E Codex Ultramarines, p. 12; alternatively 5E Codex Space Marines, p. 13)

 

"Within the Second Founding the size of the Ultramarines' force was much reduced. Most of the Space Marines left Macragge to establish new Chapters elsewhere. The Ultramarines' fortress was built to accomodate more than ten times as many Space Marines as now remained on the homeworld. As a result its arsenals and weapon shops were partially dismantled, and taken by the Primogenitor Chapters to found their own bases throughout the galaxy. The genetic banks of the Ultramarines, and the huge recruitment organisation, was similarly reduced in size.

One aspect of the old Ultramarines Legion that survived was the close relationship between the Space Marines and the people of the surrounding planets. During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. They also supplied raw materials, armaments and spacecraft. Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. To this day, the Ultramarines recruit not from a single world, but from the whole of local space. This area around Macragge is called Ultramar, the empire of the Ultramarines." 

(2E Codex Ultramarines, p. 14; alternatively 5E Codex Space Marines, p. 14)

 

Not only does the Codex state that the worlds they recruited from after the Heresy are the same they recruited from throughout the Great Crusade, it specifically states that the worlds were not divided among the successor Chapters, even though virtually all other material of the old Legion was. 

[Conn Eremon]

Does it specifically say that? I see it says the tradition continues of recruiting from multiple worlds, but it doesn't say anything about its size beforehand. If they did go from 500 to 8, they could still say that, that they kept the tradition. They could also say that these worlds are called Ultramar, but it doesn't say anything about a previous Ultramar. It seems to specifically refer to that present Utramar. It does say that the recruitment programs were split between the Chapters, which could also mean the worlds such programs were based upon,

[Kol Saresk]

Actually it doesn't specifically state anything of the sort. It states that the worlds they recruited from in the Great Crusade, they still recruit from in 40K and that these worlds also supply raw materials, armaments and space craft.

 

Now, it does make a point of saying that the area around Macragge is called Ultramar. So unless all of the 400 worlds die, it would be inferred that going by second and 5th edition, that the 40K Ultramar is the same as the GC Ultramar. Codex Ultramarines would certainly give this impression as it continues on listing the same 8 worlds. So I can definitely see the inference.

 

Curiously enough, it also states how the Ultramarines were left alone and didn't know of the Heresy until the Siege because of their distance in the South-east. Something which was then contradicted by the Word Bearers Index Astartes article when it lists that Calth was happening while Lorgar was headed towards Terra.

 

And I think I found the map you're referring to. Although I seem to have trouble getting the hyperlink. Probably because I'm on my mobile. If I'm looking at it right, it is from Codex Tyranids 5th Edition, page 10. Interestingly enough, it shows what I think is the border of Ultramar, but shows an Anphelion System, Moons of Rapson and a Station Carillion inside Ultramar's border. Huh. I assume those places are not inhabited. Or at least they are not contributing factors to the Ultramarines and are thus not Ultramar.

 

I'll try to find a pic when I get to a computer.

[Legatus]

 

Does it specifically say that? I see it says the tradition continues of recruiting from multiple worlds, but it doesn't say anything about its size beforehand. If they did go from 500 to 8, they could still say that, that they kept the tradition. They could also say that these worlds are called Ultramar, but it doesn't say anything about a previous Ultramar. It seems to specifically refer to that present Utramar. It does say that the recruitment programs were split between the Chapters, which could also mean the worlds such programs were based upon, 

 

...

 

I assume the quote was not yet fully uploaded when you made that reply.

 

"During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. (...) Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued."

 

 

 

Kol_Saresk: Yes, I was looking at the map from the 5th Edition Codex Tyranids. That does show different Behemoth tendrils, even though the earlier stories all seemed to say that Behemoth pretty much was a single large fleet which was completely caught and destroyed at Circe, whereas Kraken then advanced over a much larger area in several splinter fleets.  

 

There has been other Material showing other worlds within the borders of Ultramar, such as the WD article about Ultramar, IIRC. (Not sure which issue it was in.) There were an Inquisition training world and an Adeptus mechanicus research world described IIRC. I have allways assumed that these worlds were either populated later, after the Great Crusade, or that they are not really inhabited but merely serve as bases for the respective institution (Inquisition, AdMech), and therefor would be of no interest to the Ultramarines as suppliers of recruits or resources. The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines list eight specific worlds (nine if you count Prandium) as "the eight worlds of Ultramar". (Though there has been some discussion among Ultramarines enthusiasts since it also refers to "the eight systems" at other points.) 

 

 

Edit: In addition to the eight known worlds of Ultramar, the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines lists an Adeptus Mechanicus Research World, an Inquisition Fortress, and an Ultramarines Training World as within the borders of Ultramar. 

[Conn Eremon]

Hearty har har, Legatus. Let me try another tack. If we make the assumption that those worlds were the sum total of the Legion's Great Crusade recruitment pool, that quote could be true. If we make the assumption that those worlds were only a portion of the Legion's Great Crusade recruitment pool, that quote could still be true. That quote doesn't tell us which is assumption is right, but the new fluff kind of does.

[Legatus]

 

 

If we make the assumption that those worlds were the sum total of the Legion's Great Crusade recruitment pool, that quote could be true. If we make the assumption that those worlds were only a portion of the Legion's Great Crusade recruitment pool, that quote could still be true.

 

Umh...

 

During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. (...) Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. To this day, the Ultramarines recruit not from a single world, but from the whole of local space. 

 

That does not exactly jive with "the Ultramarines recruitment worlds were reduced by 98.4% after the reorganisation". 

[Kol Saresk]

The Ultramarines didn't recruit from all 500 worlds. If they did, all they would need is 1,000 recruits from each world to make it to being Astartes every year and every year they'd have 500,000 new Astartes. They'd have to have a higher attrition rate than the World Eaters in order to only ~250,000. 50,000 if 100 recruits per world. I mean heck, if it's the smaller number, than it'd only have to be five years to rebuild the chapter from zero to full strength. More likely, they only recruited from eight(or nine) worlds and the other worlds were either resource suppliers or were just "there" within the boundaries of Ultramar.

 

I mean, since even 5th Edition Codex: Space Marines(and possibly even 6th) say that the Ultramarines recruit from all of local space and there are maps from 5th Edition that show (possibly)inhabited worlds within "local space", all must obviously not mean the literal all, but some sort of general statement. It might just mean that the eight worlds that were recruited from within Ultramar, were all kept but everything else just happens to be within the boundaries of Ultramar.

 

It's also possible that the eight worlds together are "Ultramar" while the 500 worlds are simply worlds that fall within the borders of Ultramar and are thus considered "the 500 worlds of Ultramar". There is evidence to support the theory that there are worlds within Ultramar that "are not Ultramar", at least by 40K standards.