Changes to Calth and other HH retcons

[Conn Eremon]

The quote doesn't invalidate either assumption and neither assumption invalidates the quote. So yes, it does jive. It just might not be liked.

[Legatus]

Kol_Saresk: The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines (and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines) refers specifically to the eight worlds as "Ultramar". I am pretty sure that in Know No Fear it was refered to as "the 500 worlds of Utlramar". 

 

And I take "they recruit from all surroundinig planets" to mean "they recruit from all the surrounding planets that are populated". I.e. not from dead rocks, or from worlds that have a population of 57 Mechanicum Personell. 

[Kol Saresk]

The eights worlds are Ultramar. Five Hundreds worlds of(not are) Ultramar. Real world analogy would be the fifty United States of America. But the fifty states are not America. America is actually two different landmasses(with several nearby islands) with more countries than I can count on two hands and two feet.

 

The Empire of Ultramar, is eight planets within the region of space known as Ultramar. There is more than enough to prove that there are more than eight planets within Ultramar, although their status as populated(or even how populated) are up for debate. All Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar means is that the region of space at one time contained 500 worlds of Ultramar that had some varying number of population. It does not mean all five hundred worlds contributed to the Ultramarines. It does not mean that all five worlds are part of the "Empire of Ultramar". All it means is that there were, at one time, 500 inhabited worlds in the region of space known as "Ultramar", just like there are fifty states within the boundaries of the landmass known as "North America".

[Marshal Rohr]

The Tetrarchs specifically rule swathes of those 500 worlds, meaning they are part of the Nolan Empire within an Imperium. 

[Kol Saresk]

Nolan Empire?

[Legatus]

The eights worlds are Ultramar. Five Hundreds worlds of(not are) Ultramar.

That same phrasing is used when the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines or the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines describes the eight worlds of Ultramar.

 

"All the worlds of Ultramar share a common cultural heritage with Macragge (...) After the Horus Heresy all eight worlds benefited from the improving reforms of Roboute Guilliman. (...)

The worlds of Ultramar are inhabited by disciplined, productive and loyal people. (...)

Not all the worlds of Ultramar are identical by any means. Macragge itself is mostly bleak and rocky (...)

One of the most productive planets of Ultramar is Calth (...)"

(2E Codex Ultramarines, p. 14)

Emphasis mine.

[Kol Saresk]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing in that quote says there were more than eight worlds before or during the Heresy, only after. Unless I am misreading.

[Legatus]

No, it does not. That is said earler.  

 

During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided young recruits for the Ultramarines. (...) Although the need to recruit from these worlds vanished with the reorganisation, the tradition continued. To this day, the Ultramarines recruit not from a single world, but from the whole of local space. This area around Macragge is called Ultramar, the empire of the Ultramarines.

[Conn Eremon]

That still does not say that was all of them.

[Kol Saresk]

And again, I already pointed that we can prove those eight worlds are the eight recruiting worlds that the Ultramarines always used and we can prove that the Ultramarines haven't lost any recruiting worlds.

 

We can also prove that within the territory of space known as Ultramar that there are inhabited worlds that are not considered part of the 40K Ultramar. We hve nothing that says they were never part of the 30K Ultramar. You yourself even said that you just assumed they were later colonized even though there is nothing to prove or disprove that claim.

 

We basically keep coming full circle. We can prove that following the Heresy, there are only eight worlds that are considered to be "Ultramar". We can prove that there are worlds within the boundaries of Ultramar that are not considered to be "Ultramar" despite being considered as part of the region of space known as "Ultramar" at the time of 40K. We can prove that the Ultramarines never gave up a recruiting world. We can neither prove nor disprove that those worlds were never considered to be of Ultramar before or during the Heresy. We can neither prove nor disprove that those worlds were not inhabited before or during the Heresy. Basically, there is nothing to prove nor disprove that the 500 worlds cannot exist before or during the Heresy, only that it cannot exist after.

[Legatus]

 

We can also prove that within the territory of space known as Ultramar that there are inhabited worlds that are not considered part of the 40K Ultramar. 

 

There are no colonized worlds within the borders of Ultramar that are not part of the realm of Ultramar. There are only staffed bases of various Institutions. Those worlds are not "inhabited". There is staff statinioned there. 

 

 

 

 

We can neither prove nor disprove that those worlds were never considered to be of Ultramar before or during the Heresy.

 

I'll break the quote down: 

 

• During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided (...) recruits
• with the reorganisation, the tradition continued
• To this day, the Ultramarines recruit (...) from the whole of local space 
• This area around Macragge is called Ultramar

 

 

 

Basically, there is nothing to prove nor disprove that the 500 worlds cannot exist before or during the Heresy, only that it cannot exist after. 

 

The Codices tell us that there used to be nine worlds, but that one got destroyed by Tyranids. The Codices also tell us that the history of Ultramar goes way back to the days of the Great Crusade. If Ultramar used to consist of 500 worlds, but was greatly reduced in size after the Heresy, the Codices would have been the place to describe that. That would have been a relevant piece of information, completely within the scope of the description. It mentions that there used to be an additional world. And it describes the origin during the Great Crusade. 

 

After two entire Codex pages that tell us about the early beginnings of Ultramar, about each of the eight worlds in detail, and about the one world that also used to be a part of Ultramar but is now destroyed, after all of that an "oh and btw, Ultramar used to be 500 worlds back then" does not quite match. 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

We can also prove that within the territory of space known as Ultramar that there are inhabited worlds that are not considered part of the 40K Ultramar. 

 

There are no colonized worlds within the borders of Ultramar that are not part of the realm of Ultramar. There are only staffed bases of various Institutions. Those worlds are not "inhabited". There is staff statinioned there. 

 

 

There has been other Material showing other worlds within the borders of Ultramar, such as the WD article about Ultramar, IIRC. (Not sure which issue it was in.) There were an Inquisition training world and an Adeptus mechanicus research world described IIRC. I have allways assumed that these worlds were either populated later, after the Great Crusade, or that they are not really inhabited but merely serve as bases for the respective institution (Inquisition, AdMech), and therefor would be of no interest to the Ultramarines as suppliers of recruits or resources. The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines list eight specific worlds (nine if you count Prandium) as "the eight worlds of Ultramar". (Though there has been some discussion among Ultramarines enthusiasts since it also refers to "the eight systems" at other points.)

No offense, but you're starting to trip over yourself. You have gone from saying that you asssumed those worlds were either colonized later or only had minimal populations necessary to keep the installation running to stating it as a fact.

 

But like I said, this is just running around and around in a circle.

The Codices tell us that there used to be nine worlds, but that one got destroyed by Tyranids. The Codices also tell us that the history of Ultramar goes way back to the days of the Great Crusade. If Ultramar used to consist of 500 worlds, but was greatly reduced in size after the Heresy, the Codices would have been the place to describe that. That would have been a relevant piece of information, completely within the scope of the description. It mentions that there used to be an additional world. And it describes the origin during the Great Crusade.

Codex: Ultramarines never mentioned Calth. Codex: Ultramarines actually said the Ultramarines weren't even touched by the Heresy. Then the IA articles were published in 3rd Edition. Surely if Calth was such a thing, it would have been mentioned in Codex: Ultramarines.

During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided (...) recruits

with the reorganisation, the tradition continued

Codex: Ultramarines states that the worlds considered to actually be Ultramar are the worlds the Ultramarines recruited from and that they never gave up any worlds and those worlds also give supplies to the Ultramarines.

To this day, the Ultramarines recruit (...) from the whole of local space

This area around Macragge is called Ultramar

Codex: Tyranids 5th Edition and "other sources, such as the WD article about Ultramar" show that the eight worlds are Ultramar, they define the boundaries of Ultramar, but they are not the entirety of what lies within the boundaries of Ultramar.

 

 

 

 

 

Now, what am I saying? Am I saying every world inside of the boundaries of Ultramar is Ultramar? No.

 

Am I saying that those worlds were once considered to be Ultramar? No.

 

Am I saying that it is entirely possible that there were once Five Hundred Worlds within the region of space known as Ultramar and were once considered to be of Ultramar without actually considered to be Ultramar? Yes.

 

Now, tell me how I have violated the quote.

 

And yes, all we are doing is running around in circles.

[Legatus]

 

No offense, but you're starting to trip over yourself. You have gone from saying that you asssumed those worlds were either colonized later or only had minimal populations necessary to keep the installation running to stating it as a fact.

 

I had only remembered the AdMech World and the Inquisition World of the top of my head, but I remembered that there were more worlds than that mentioned. So I cautiously described them assuming that some of the mentioned worlds would be "regular" populated worlds. Then I went to check the Lexicanum and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines for what worlds are actually described, and the one additional world listed is an Ultramarines training world (which, according to Lexicanum is that world's "only function"). Hence the edit in that post. 

 

Aside from the long known eight worlds of Ultramar, the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines (and IIRC this was also described in an earlier White Dwarf article) lists an Adeptus Mechanicus Research World, an Inquisition Fortress, and an Ultramarines Training World as within the area of Ultramar. 

 

 

 

Codex: Ultramarines never mentioned Calth. Codex: Ultramarines actually said the Ultramarines weren't even touched by the Heresy. Then the IA articles were published in 3rd Edition. Surely if Calth was such a thing, it would have been mentioned in Codex: Ultramarines.

 

Mine does. Odd. (Or did you mean the battle at Calth specifically?) 

 

"One of the most productive planets of Ultramar is Calth, and airless world whose inhabitants live in underground cities where the deadly light of Calth's blue sun cannot reach them." [Goes on to describe the living conditions on Calth, as well as it's agricultural and industrial capabilities and shipyards.]

(p. 14)

 

The 2nd Edition Codex also states that the Ultramarines were "largely untouched" by the Heresy, that they had learned only at the very end of it, and that their main contribution was destroying a large fleet that was heading to reinforce Horus. So there was a little bit of action, and some minor losses, just not that much compared to the other loyal Legions. 

 

However, the Codex also says that none of the worlds liberated by the Ultramarines was in immediate danger from the forces of Chaos, so you could see that as contradictory to the Index Astartes description of the Word Bearer attack on Calth. (And you can damn sure see that as contradictory to the Word Bearer's and World Eaters collective raid on hundreds of worlds of Ultramar.) 

 

 

 

 

Now, what am I saying? Am I saying every world inside of the boundaries of Ultramar is Ultramar? No.

 

Am I saying that those worlds were once considered to be Ultramar? No.

 

Am I saying that it is entirely possible that there were once Five Hundred Worlds within the region of space known as Ultramar and were once considered to be of Ultramar without actually considered to be Ultramar? Yes.

 

Now, tell me how I have violated the quote.

 

During the Great Crusade the worlds around Macragge provided (...) recruits

with the reorganisation, the tradition continued

 

Note how it doesn't say "some worlds around Macragge provided recruits" (as in "eight out of five hundred"). It says "the worlds around Macragge provided recruits" (as in "all of them"). 

 

That tradition continued after the Heresy. 

 

To this day the Utlramarines recruit from the whole of local space. 

 

That area is called Ultramar. 

 

 

You may have a station of the Inquisition within that area and not have it fall under the jurisdiction of the Ultramarines or "Ultramar". But you cannot have worlds that are refered to as "of Ultramar" and not be part of Ultramar". Especially since the eight official worlds are also often described as "the worlds of Ultramar". 

 

"All the worlds of Ultramar share a common cultural heritage with Macragge (...) After the Horus Heresy all eight worlds benefited from the improving reforms of Roboute Guilliman."

 

Note how it does not say "the few remaining worlds" benefited from those reforms. 

[Legatus]

Ah, yes. Important point. 

 

The 2nd Editon Codex (and 5th Edition Codex) also described how the Ultramarines had learned only at the very end about the Heresy, and were then rushing to Terra. 

 

In the Word Bearers Index Astartes, the Word Bearers under Erebus are attacking Calth while the remainder of the Legion is with the rest of Horus' forces at Terra. So that still fits with that Codex lore, since this Word Bearers attack happens at the end of the Heresy and is basically how the Ultramarines finally learned of it. 

 

In 'Know No Fear', however, the Word Bearers attack Calth at the beginning of the Heresy, right after Istvaan V. They then trap the Ultramarines behind that massive warp storm, and later, two or three years into the Heresy, attack the Worlds of Ultramar tpgether with the World Eaters. This is already a fairly substantial retcon regardless of the description of the realm of Ultramar. So in a discussion about whether the books merely describe the events in greater detail and tell us something we previously simply did not know about or whether the books flat out change the lore, that point is settled, as far as 'Know No Fear' is concerned. It can still be discussed whether individual points (such as the realm of Ultramar) are changes or just added information, but there is no question that the Horus Heresy series has made significant and irreconcilable changes to the Codex lore from 2nd through 5th Edition. 

[Hrvat]

As far as timeline is concerned Final Liberation games manual has a timeline of human history. For the exact pages quote I will either have to search in my previous posts or find the manual. It lists

 

007M31 as start of the Heresy

014M31 as siege of Terra

021M31 as 2nd founding

[Galron]

I didnt read everything in here, but one of the retcons that has kind of pissed me off was the Death Guard retcon. They went from noble marines tragically turned to chaos by the love of their primarch to, "Hey, lets be bad guys now." In the old fluff the majority of them were lost in the warp and started dying of disease. Nurgle came to Mortarion and offered to save his men if they started worshipping him(in a nutshell). In the new fluff they almost seem like bad guys from the start with Typhus running the show, who the hell is this Typhus upstart and why is he calling the shots for Morty?

[Hrvat]

It has been strongly hinted at that since the IA article more than 10 years ago.

[Gree]

Sure seems like Guilliman had a plan to take control and not being at the defense of Terra was apart of that plan. His legion will not suffer from more losses and maintains his perfect timing to proclaim regency. The council never realized the farce the Codex Astrartes truly was. Its only true divisions are of fellow loyalist legions and not the Ultra Marines. In name only do we see this within the "Primogenitors", all remaining loyal to Guilliman and the realm of Ultramar first not the imperium. And with Terra tamed and his brothers subdued Rob returns to Ultramar, leaving the Imperium to eventually erode becoming everything the Big-E stood against.  

 

The timing seems a bit to perfect for the biggest cou d'eta in all of 40k.

Well Dorn at least, going by recent fluff material, had been placed in command of all loyalist forces by the Emperor. As far as I know, that decree had not been rescinded, so with Guilliman and the High Lords ordering Dorn around is probably technically illegal going by the Emperor's last orders.

 

Granted, Dorn was not in the right frame of mind at the time, so take it how you will.