CSM army - Getting "underdog" units to perform

[Valaskjalf]

Mhm, yeah grimoire is a good trick but do not rely on that too much. My question is, why use jump-packed units? When you can field equally or even more effective cheap bikes, 6th edition is the bike era.

Because if you read my first post this is an exercise in trying to make Assault Troops (WTs) viable - Been running raptors for years but like the all-out jump/lightning claws of the Talons. I will be running Bikes and Spawn as well - its an experiment to run those 3 fast attacks and to see how they fare.

 

I know there are a number of better units to use other than Warp Talons and thats exactly why I want to use them.

[Elrahir]

I know, i was just mentioning this for the grimoire trick, it can be extraordinary good when you need it, but then it can screw you up too, because it is a roll of 3-6. So, stacking up points for a deathstar that might not be that deathstar for a turn you might need it to be a deathstar, and we are talking about deathstars, and those come up always with a counter, is not that stable tactic, don't you think?

My guess would be don't use WT, use raptors with 2 meltas/flamers/plasmas (you chose the role) flat, cheap, annoying and can do some amazing stuff if you playtest them a couple of times. WT are too buggy atm, expensive and not the kind of jack-of-all-trades you pay those points for, or not that killy either.

Well, that is just my opinion, don't listen to it if u prefer, playtest talons and you may come up with something good.

[Zhorzh]

Sorry, but I just can't think of a reason why you'd want to run Warp Talons. They are just too expensive. I was once thinking about a 5-man suicide harraser squad who deepstrike behind enemy lines and try to blind people, but that's a bad idea in practice since most units have a good initiative and their blind range is too short.

 

Although, if I took Raptors I'd take a BL ally and make this:

 

5-6 Bikes, VotLW, with 2x Meltaguns and Meltabomb - first biker HQ goes here

5-6 Bikes, VotLW, with 2x Meltaguns and Meltabomb - second biker HQ goes here

10 Raptors, VotLW, with 2x Meltaguns and Meltabomb

10 Raptors, VotLW, with 2x Meltaguns and Meltabomb

 

Or if you really want, take 8-10 Warp Talons with VotLW instead of Raptors. Or without VotLW, whatever pleases you. I don't think that Warp Talons are a good basis for a Deathstar. I'd much rather run them, or better yet Raptors, with Bikes and HQs attached to them and create a bunch of fast targets.

[Valaskjalf]

I know, i was just mentioning this for the grimoire trick, it can be extraordinary good when you need it, but then it can screw you up too, because it is a roll of 3-6. So, stacking up points for a deathstar that might not be that deathstar for a turn you might need it to be a deathstar, and we are talking about deathstars, and those come up always with a counter, is not that stable tactic, don't you think?

My guess would be don't use WT, use raptors with 2 meltas/flamers/plasmas (you chose the role) flat, cheap, annoying and can do some amazing stuff if you playtest them a couple of times. WT are too buggy atm, expensive and not the kind of jack-of-all-trades you pay those points for, or not that killy either.

Well, that is just my opinion, don't listen to it if u prefer, playtest talons and you may come up with something good.

Yeah thanks, I hear what youre saying and I agree with you lol I just really want WTs to work and Im even fine with it if they just die on me - at least if I have some decent strategy with them I might have a chance at causing a bit of an upset and I suppose that's what Im most looking forward to. I understand that its one expensive deathstar unit that will fail more than succeed, but I will try them out, perhaps use some decoy units as cover and keep the numbers in tact.

 

I like the idea of the ScullCannon but that makes them even more expensive and sorts of forces me to ally with Daemons which Im not too keen on doing as the models dont really appeal to me. Will probably try running a JumpPack Lord MoS with then and perhaps kit them out like someone mentioned earlier. Thanks for the advice though, will give feedback on the outcome.

[Dam13n]

We've had enough "Talons are just awful" posts and topics in other threads.

 

The OP is asking about suggestions on how to use them, not if he should take them at all.

 

So imagine that you HAD to include a unit of Talons in your army and go from there rather than derailing the topic with the same "Talons are just awful" posts that we've all seen and understand.

 

Yes:

 

Talons < Raptors < Spawn < Bikers < Heldrake

 

But that isn't the point of this discussion.

 

I mean, even Jeske is contributing by offering helpful advice!!

[Elrahir]

Odd, yeah. OKAY, if ze jeske did it, challenge accepted. I'll give it a shot, jump-sorcerer ml:3 attached to 5 WT ALL with moN (no upgrades except mark, even a couple of boons just to add up to the troll unit).

I'd go for 3 Tele rolls for invisibility, invisible, t5 and shred, deathstar without the grimoire gimmick (and the cost of it, allies you dont need, etc.) but with better chances of survival.

 

Points Edit: 130 for the unmarked (jump-pack, ML:3 ) sorcerer / 180 for teh WT with MoN, 310pts TOTAL, doesn't sound that expensive and if the unit fails, well.. you haven't lost much.

[Zhorzh]

Jeske pretty much always gives helpful advice, the fact that you don't like it is another thing entirely.

 

And I still think that if you want to run jump units, be it Raptors or Warp Talons, your best bet is to take 2 units of 8-10, with 1 or 2 units of Bikers with Bike HQs.

 

 

310pts TOTAL, doesn't sound that expensive

 

310 points for 6 power armored models doesn't sound that expensive to you? I envy you.

[the jeske]

310pts is a DP with a dark mace pimped out with wings, mastery lvls and stuff. takes up same HQ slot and is a lot more resilient then 6 +3sv models.

[Elrahir]

@ Zorzh: My advice was 310pts to spent on a troll unit, jeske's advice is a 730pts deathstar unit BOUND TO FAIL equally, because.. WT

 

Plus, 10 raptors is a waste of points as they do not give you extra special weapons, hence the extra 5 raptor bodies are paid for meatbags, which is not that great of a deal, as they do not excel at cc anyway.

[Zhukov]

I spent a bit of time some months ago to figure out how I could use Warp Talons without them doing too much damage to the list. Why? Because I like the idea of combining the Warp Talons with the Forgeworld Deathguard conversion kit. The 'best' (least harmfull way) of using them for me is:

 

5 Warp Talons; MoN. 180 points.

 

They basicly just substite a Heldrake or Bike squad or Spawn squad, due to being roughly the same amount of points.

 

I wouldn't invest more points into them as it's throwing points after something bad, which is almost Always a bad idea.

 

How do you play it? You either Deepstrike them (and try to blind stuff if you think you can hit multiple units with them) or you simply run them across the board. Getting shot up is one of the best things about them haha.

 

No but really, there just isn't much you can do with them. They are too expensive as a bodyguard (You don't want HQ's with jump packs in the first place) and too expensive + limited to take large squads.

 

Main problem isn't even the lack of Frags, I don't really care about that, having no Krak grenades is way worse as it makes them virtually useless against any kind of vehicle, which is extremely bad for an expensive assault unit. (It's amazing how truly bad they are: They can't touch 2+ save units, can't touch vehicles, lack the attacks to kill horde units and the grenades to kill MeQ squads reliably... )

[Elrahir]

Keeping the cost down was the main idea for me too, but if i wanted to use them i wouldn't want to just leave those 180pts without a chance of survivability, so i chose a cheap IC with some nice range of tools, ensuring they won't break easily and giving them a much needed melta bomb. The jump-packed sorcerer can prove to be very handy, and his bodyguard is good enough in cc. It isn't a bad idea at all actually, i was wrong.

[Zhorzh]

Funny how my dislike for Warp Talons gradually increases the longer this thread continues.

(It's amazing how truly bad they are: They can't touch 2+ save units, can't touch vehicles, lack the attacks to kill horde units and the grenades to kill MeQ squads reliably... )

Great, now I'll never even think about fielding Warp Talons.

[Elrahir]

Fanboyism is not going to make you better at list-building though.

[Tenebris]

Well "most" of our units are underperforming since they are MEQ without the most important buffs that are needed for a MEQ army, namely high discipline, army wide rules and a precise delivery system. Said that lets have a look at the Warp Talons...

 

Well they are the only model that I have fielded due to the rule of "cool" since I am mostly a minmax person and I have to make an effort of will to not scrape them from the lists. Great miniatures, very bad rules.

 

The WT "usually" do their job though I have yet to launch a proper "Blind" attack that would be useful but they are weak even against their prey of choice, SM. Sure the lightning claws are nice but the number of attacks is far from optimal to make the unit work. As with all CSM, you need numbers to make an unit viable for a role. 

 

They fall in the same category as the Mutilators yet at least those can be used on occasion as an escort for a melee terminator lord but the lowly terminators usually outperform them. I have learned that if you want to be killy in melee get two troop choices form the Daemons book and go with it. Cheap, effective and widely more useful (Daemonettes, I am looking at you).

 

In short you have to tailor the list, and if you need to tailor something to make it work usually it means that this unit is lacking. At least they look nice on the shelf.

 

IMO the problem with the WT or the Raptors by extension is that they are in a slot that has two much better options and a third mandatory. Spawn are really good and so are the bikers, while we all know what the Helldrake thing is about. The moment you spend those points for the WT you know that the Helldrake would do the same job, aka kill marines, faster, better and will last longer.

 

Where to use the Raptors or the WT? Well in a melee army list with tons of unit saturation. Just keep dropping those units like no ones business and hope that the adversary would target your Raptors instead of your precious Warp Talons. I consider both units as fire and forget things, as fire magnets that allow my infantry to move around. Expensive, yes, but sure its is fun.

[Valaskjalf]

Well luckily for me Im not too fussed about losing a couple of games while having fun trying out these "useless" units. Good thing about them is that I wont have my hopes up and who knows? I might get lucky and actually get into combat with them without too many casualties and beat the flip outta some Loyalists. Much better imo than fielding 3 x heldrakes - whats the fun in that anyway un less you're a WAAC kinda guy which Im not.

[Tenebris]

That is true, though even I field max one Helldrake. I cannot stomach the Aegis thus I rely on him and my Forge Fiend to keep the skies clear. In theory the WT concept is fun, chaos genestealers, pop out, kill some folk or die in the attempt. Fun to use, surely, but not cost effective even in a codex that it is plagued by the problems with being a cost effective army. 

 

The WT were supposed to be our answer to a static gunline but it seems that GW chickened out and considered the unit to be overpowered, hence the cost and the wargear. The Tau ignore Blind and the other armies are not severely hampered by it, it can work but it requires too many things to act in concert. 

 

Much like with the Dimensional Key, nice concept, great flufff, useless in an army for it requires a ton of things to happen. 

[Chaeron]

 

 

310pts TOTAL, doesn't sound that expensive

 

310 points for 6 power armored models doesn't sound that expensive to you? I envy you.

 

Think of the quantity of Cultists I can swamp that with!

[Valaskjalf]

That is true, though even I field max one Helldrake. I cannot stomach the Aegis thus I rely on him and my Forge Fiend to keep the skies clear. In theory the WT concept is fun, chaos genestealers, pop out, kill some folk or die in the attempt. Fun to use, surely, but not cost effective even in a codex that it is plagued by the problems with being a cost effective army. 

 

The WT were supposed to be our answer to a static gunline but it seems that GW chickened out and considered the unit to be overpowered, hence the cost and the wargear. The Tau ignore Blind and the other armies are not severely hampered by it, it can work but it requires too many things to act in concert. 

 

Much like with the Dimensional Key, nice concept, great flufff, useless in an army for it requires a ton of things to happen. 

 

Yeah I think thats part of the reason why I will enjoy using them...sort of an "against the odds" inclusion. So many things can and SHOULD go wrong, but the mere fact that the potential is there for them to really wreck the crap out of (almost) any MEQ in the game seems very challenging and appealing to me. One thing I most likely wont do is deepstrike them, rather pick Huron as one of my HQs and infiltrate the Talons - should spare me against at least 1 round of shooting if planned properly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jerryrich]

I use a unit of 7 with 10 spawn, a few DS oblits, a few DS Mutilators and a bunch of marines. The get downfield speed of the army really lets me use talons as a second hit after my other units get tied up into combat. Ive thrown em at termies, orks (all kinds even mega nobs) regular marines and they have almost always brought me ahead of the game on the fight they are in. I honestly don't play in a super competitive environment but we don't take pushover lists either. I don't think i'd take em to a tournie, but on the other hand I wouldn't go to a tournie anyway.

 

I think they work best in a list that is built to work together. They are NOT a plug and play unit like bikers and Hellchickens are.

[Sception]

Funny how my dislike for Warp Talons gradually increases the longer this thread continues.

(It's amazing how truly bad they are: They can't touch 2+ save units, can't touch vehicles, lack the attacks to kill horde units and the grenades to kill MeQ squads reliably... )

Great, now I'll never even think about fielding Warp Talons.

If you're going to try to make them work, it really comes down to daemons. Tzeentch herald (for divination) with grimoire to get them 2++ invulnerable, skull cannons to get them grenades. Sure, you'll only succeed at both the psy check and the book about half the time, and the rest of the time your deathstar unit will get wiped out and you'll lose. Sure, it won't be reliable or effective enough to take to a tourney. Sure, if you're running a grimoire army you're better off main booking daemons and using it on a fat, cheap, unit of hounds with a khorne herald.

But you really didn't think this thread was going to produce a magic insight that would make them a viable centerpiece for a competitive tournament army, did you? If such a trick existed, it would be common knowledge by now, I should think.

Run the daemon allies, run a max size talon unit plus characters, and try to get the divination 4++ with the grimoire up at the same time, as much of the time as possible. You'll lose more then you win, but you will win some, and the talons will feel pretty badass while you're doing it. I'd run undivided talons with a khornate lord for the axe to give you an anti-teq tool, and an undivided biomancy sorcerer for additional utility.

[Zhorzh]

But you really didn't think this thread was going to produce a magic insight that would make them a viable centerpiece for a competitive tournament army, did you?

Of course I didn't. It just never occured to me that the reason why Warp Talons are bad is deeper than "they cost like Terminators and have worse gear". Although this thread made me think about how to make a playable list with Talons or Raptors.

 

 

CSM + Black Legion allies

 

Chaos Lord; VotLW, MoN, Bike, Lightning Claw, Power Fist, Mutation, Sigil 180

Sorc Ally; VotLW, Force Axe, Bike, Lvl3, Familiar, 150

5 Plague Marines; 2x Plasmaguns, Rhino 185

5 Plague Marines; 2x Plasmaguns, Rhino 185

5 Plague Marines; 2x Plasmaguns, Rhino 185

10 Allied Cultists: 1x Flamer 55

5 Bikes; VotLW, 2x Meltagun, Meltabombs, 140

5 Bikes; VotLW, 2x Meltagun, Meltabombs, 140

5 Warp Talons: VotLW, MoN 195

5 Warp Talons: VotLW, MoN 195

Obliterator; VotLW, MoN 79

Obliterator; VotLW, MoN 79

Obliterator; VotLW, MoN 79

 

TOTAL: 1847

 

 

The main plan is to rush with Bike units and Warp Talons. Rhinos primarily help your bikes and Talons by providing cover and blocking LoS. The opponent can't kill them all at once so some Talons or Bike units will catch him and do some damage. Talons are pretty mobile so they should be able to pick preffered targets without much problem.

 

Edit: wrong point costs. Will be fixing soon.

Edit2: fixed.

[Zhukov]

I can help people with including bad units in an optimal way. I can't magicly make the units better of course, but I cán help with preventing the damage they do a list. Just tell me here what you want me to do or send me a PM, I'm answering PM's within 2 days 90% of the cases.

[Trevak Dal]

If you really want to get the most out of Warp Talons, I would consider not taking MoS. Thanks to no grenades, investing in a higher I value doesn't give you as much of a return.

 

I'd be most tempted to run unmarked, as all of the marks are pretty expensive on an already expensive model. If you want to mark, I'd consider MoN to help survive long enough to get to combat.

I did this the other day in fact-though they had Veterans of the Long War.  Yeah they were swinging at initiative 1, but I went after a wounded tactical squad.

 

They hit last...but with 3 attacks each on the charge (and rerolls to hit and wound) they punked them rather handily.  They were trapped between my Warp talons and my CSMs that infiltrated to nab the objective when he successfully broke off and was *drumroll* Rundown.