And They Shall Know No Fear

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Sorry if this is necro-threading, but we ran into this particular argument yesterday in a game.  Some devs broke, auto-rallied, opted not to move at all in consolidation or movement and wanted to fire their ML's at full BS.

 

I think the crux of this discussion falls on the word "normally" in the ATSKNF special rule.  Per the regroup rule, after consolidation, models may not run or assault.  they also count as having moved and can only snap fire.  ATSKNF says that after an auto rally, models may move, run, assault, or shoot normally.  

 

Normally might mean that they do not count as having moved due to the regroup.  Thus, they are not snap firing unless they move *again* after the consolidation.  If this were the case, you could move your consolidation, then declare the HevWep stationary, and fire at full BS.  This seems contrary to the whole idea of heavy weapons because why would a Space Marine be able to move 3" and then fire normally if he panics, but not be able to do so under normal circumstances?

 

Normally might mean that you don't count as moving so that if you hold still during both consolidation and movement, you don't snap fire.  This ignores the fact that ATSKNF specifically says that they can shoot normally after having regrouped (and consolidation is part of regroup).  If ATSKNF comes in to erase the counts as having moved, it does so between the consolidation and the normal movement.

 

Finally, shooting normally might have no effect on the already existing status of counting as having moved.  Perhaps "shoots normally" means shoots normally for a heavy weapon that counts as having moved.  Maybe it just undoes whatever effect enforced snapshots has on weapons that would normally not be firing snap shots when they move.  In other words, one effect of regrouping is that ALL weapons in that unit are snap firing in the next shooting phase.  Snap firing means a BS of 1, even for say an assault weapon like a meltagun which would normally otherwise fire at normal BS if moving.  The effect of ATSKNF is to reduce the automatic reduction to BS1 for the entire unit, making everyone back to base BS.  Thus, the meltagun now fires at BS4.  The unit, however, still counts as having moved because ATKNF does not specifically say it renders the unit as having not moved.  And a normal shot for a heavy weapon that moved is still a snap shot.  Because it is a snap shot from a source other than the automatic snap shot on everyone imposed by regrouping, it still snap fires.

 

I tend to favor the latter interpretation.

[Raeven]

 

A unit makes it's regroup test just before it moves, so we add this 3" consolidation to it's normal move, so whether they decide to move or not they count as moving, so we say that the stationary position is a movement in this instance. And page 10 states that you cannot go back to a unit after you have moved on not that you cannot move a model after it has moved. You complete the models whole 9" before you continue onto the next models moving, consolidating is done just as the model is about to move (BRB, pg.31), as such the model is still moving as it completes it's 3" concolidation, and moves into its 6" move.

The underlined parts are demonstrably false, simply read the rules for Morale, Consolidation, and And They Shall Know No Fear.

 

ATSKNF gives explicit permission to Move, Shoot (Run), etc as normal in addition to the 3" regroup move. 

 

A regular regroup does not give this permission.  ATSKNF is an advanced rule override.  Being treated as such, it removes all the restrictions on a unit that would normally be placed by the Regroup move.  I'm of the inclination to say you are not treated as "counts as moved" because the ATSKNF does not tell you to treat your models as such.

 

 

 

Edit to add:  Saw your later argument and realized what you were saying.

[ChaosRising]

Brethren, if my squad of 10marines break from comabt and escape the sweeping advance, can they shoot normally next turn when they auto rally or do they snap soot?

The short answer is Yes. However, let me add that the following answer is my understanding of the rules in the BRB that pertain to your question. I am not stating them as some galactic law. I am simply looking at what you asked and what GW has given us on the subject, and trying to fill in any gaps as necessary with a minimal amount of personal interpretation. Where I have given my own interpretations or added my own thoughts on the issue, you will see an [Interpretation Alert!]. I have tried to avoid copying whole swathes of the book, so the relevant passages will be quoted, and lesser supporting information will usually be given in-text references. For clarity's sake, bold faced quotes are bold faced in the BRB, while all other quotations were in normal text.

 

I have written part of my answer in a scenario style in order to help keep track of what is happening, so I apologize in advance for the lengthy reply. Your squad in question (for argument's sake) will be Ultramarines (UM) and the other player's force will be Dark Eldar (DE).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-The UMs lose.

 

-The UMs take and fail a Morale check.

-The UMs "make a Fall Back move immediately upon failing a Morale check"(p.30 BRB). If the affected squad was one of many units in separate combats, resolve it completely as described on p. 22 under Choose a Combat  [Interpretation Alert! Although GW does not mention anything to this effect, the quoted rule would likely trigger regardless of whose turn it is].

 

-"In each subsequent Movement phase, they will make further Fall Back moves instead of moving normally, until the unit Regroups, is destroyed, or leaves the table." (p.30 BRB)

 

If it was the UM player's turn (your turn) when the UM squad failed its Morale check, then the UMs would immediately fall back in his turn per the Fall Back rule. [Interpretation Alert! In addition, the UM squad would also fall back during the DE Movement phase as GW never specified hat Fall Back moves are restricted to the Movement Phase of the player whose unit is falling back - see quotation above.]

 

Alternately, if the UM squad failed the Morale check during the DE player’s turn, then the UMs would immediately fall back per the Fall Back rule.

 

In either scenario, once the “new” UM turn starts (your first turn after the squad fails its Morale check) the UM squad is subject to Regrouping as follows: "A unit that is falling back must attempt to Regroup by taking a Regroup test in their Movement phase just before they move." (p. 31 BRB)

 

-The UMs will automatically pass their Regroup test, as the first sentence of ATSKNF states that "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule automatically passes tests to regroup." (p.33 BRB)

 

Concerning Regrouping, "If the unit successfully passes the test [which the UMs do automatically], it stops falling back and can immediately move up to 3" " (p. 31 BRB, first sentence of 4th bullet point).

 

This brings us back to to the the following aspect of ATSKNF: "The unit can move, shoot (or Run) and declare charges normally in the turn in which it Regroups (in addition to the 3” Regroup move)." (p.33 BRB)

 

The four words in green are the key to answering your question. Because the regroup test (which Space Marines autopass) is made before movement occurs the squad is able to move 3" (as a pre-movement move) in addition to its standard movement. See the quotations above. This only works for models with ATSKNF.

 

 

There have been questions as to whether or not ATSKNF overrides other rules, is overriden by basic rules, etc. In addition to the four preceding quotations, please see the following quotation as well: "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule" (p.32 BRB). This means that ATSKNF models do not follow the normal rules for successfully regrouping (p.31 BRB, 4th bullet point, and bottom paragraph). All other models follow the rules mentioned on p. 31, unless stated otherwise.

[Spinsanity]

Regrouping, page 31, says you can shout, counting as moving.

ATSKNF, page 33, says you can shoot normally.

 

ATSKNF doesn't overrule just part of the regrouping rules, it overrules it in whole.

 

+ Edit : fudged an edit and erased a word, so corrected my mistake...

[DarkGuard]

The original posts were just temporarily hidden for necro'ing a topic, a temporary measure until I could better deal with them, such as by splitting them into a new topic. I apologize I couldn't get word to you quicker, but most realize that when a post that has necro'd a topic vanishes, it's likely to be because it necro'd a topic. As is usual, it is much better to create a new topic, instead of resurrect one from months ago.

 

I've since split those posts into a new topic. Please feel free to carry on the discussion in this thread, not the old one.

[Spinsanity]

Just to sum up my previous statement regarding my view of ATSKNF vs Regrouping :

 

ATSKNF (page 31) is an advanced rule that trumps the Regrouping (page 33) rule.

Regrouping, page 31 said:

A unit that is falling back must attempt to Regoup by taking a Regroup test in their Movement phase just before they move.

[snip rules regarding the test's target number]

ATSKNF, page 33 said:

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule automatically passes tests to Regroup.

This is pretty straightforward, although ATSKNF units need to test, they automatically pass said test.

Regrouping, page 31 said:

If the unit successfully passes the test, it stops falling back and can immediately move up to 3"

ATSKNF, page 33 said:

...(in addition to the 3" Regroup move).

No change here.

Regrouping, page 31 said:

Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move.

ATSKNF, page 33 said:

The unit can move [...] normally in the turn in which it Regroups.

and

Regrouping, page 31 said:

However it can shoot, but counts as having moved

ATSKNF, page 33 said:

The unit can [...] and shoot normally in the turn in which it Regroups.

So, to those saying "shoot normally" means the unit follows the rules from Regroup? If so, how come moving doesn't?

 

If "Shoot normally" means "Shoot as per Regrouping" (Snapshots), then how come "Move normally" does not mean "Move as per Regrouping" (Cannot move) ?

 

If anyone is able to answer that question with any semblance of credibility, congratulations.

[ChaosRising]

Because a model with ATSKNF has an "upgraded" definition of regrouping (for lack of a better explanation). Non ATSKNF models use the regrouping rules on p.31

[Spinsanity]

As I said, if ATSKNF upgrades the Regrouping rule's definition of how to move, why doesn't it upgrade the deffinition of how to shoot?

[ChaosRising]

It does.  ATSKNF units are not restricted to snap shots the way that others would be. So, Ultramarines can move and fire immediately after regrouping, with no shooting penalties (ie not being restricted to snap shots only). Chaos Marines, on the other hand, would be restricted to a max of 3" movement and snap shots only as they do not have ATSKNF. That is (I believe) how GW intended this rule to work.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

I think it has to do with what is being changed.  The regroup rule says EVERYONE in the unit counts as having moved (whether you move the model or not) and is limited to snap shots (including assault and rapid fire weapon users) which, per the definition of snap shot, means they all drop to BS 1 instead of their normal BS.   ATSKNF says they shoot normally, meaning anyone who's BS was reduced to one by the part of the Regroup rule that says they can only fire snap shots, retains their normal BS of 4 which they would have while moving.  However, it has no effect on snap shots/BS1 caused by other factors.  This is why you can't break, regroup, and then fire your weapons at a flyer at full BS.  Yes, the Regroup rule says you shoot normally, but the snap shot the Flyer's hard to hit rule imposes is still what you would normally need to hit the Flyer.  (Likewise, someone who got Mind Wormed and then broke does not regain their original BS from regrouping.)  In this case, the snap shots from heavy weapons is caused not by the fact the regroup rule directly reduces the BS to 1, but rather by the rule that heavy weapons which have moved normally fire snap shots.  Since ATSKNF does not say that the unit regroups is not to considered to have ever moved, it doesn't change that effect (being declared to have moved) from regrouping.  Normally, for most weapons, moving imposes no BS penalty (AKA snap shots) and normal shooting thus happens at BS4.  However, for a heavy weapon that moved, normal shooting would still be a snap shot, and so, in this case, it is.

[ChaosRising]

I was looking over this thread again and I think I may need to revise my answer. I believe a better summary of the issue might be that the unit can shoot normally per the rules for the weapons in question, but counts as having moved (even if it didn't) for the purpose of determining weapon penalties/modifiers.