Beardbattered Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Hey guys, I'm a relatively new player to 40k. I've wanted to get into SW for a long time, but was never really sure which way I wanted to go with my force. I've recently come into a good source for TWC and fenrisian wolves, so I was thinking about building an army centered around these units. The entire force either IS a wolf or is on one. Now I have a few questions about this. 1. I kind of like lower model count elite armies, even though they are by no means the most efficient. Would such an army be somewhat low model count? 2. How competitive would this be if played well? I like my armies to be very thematic mostly, but it's no fun being stomped every time you play. 3. What might a 1500-2k pt list look like in general? 4. Is this just a stupid idea? Would it make any sense at all fluff wise? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sohail187 Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Welcome to the pack :) I myself only joined not to long ago, but from help on these forums starting to go in the right direction. If you already have TWC, and you are looking for a low unit count army, you are heading in the right direction. As for theme, you mentioned "that the entire army is a wolf or is on one" This is achievable, however you will need to field Cannis to make your fenrisian wolves troops choice. However fenrisian wolves even though troops cannot hold objectives. Which means objective bases games, unless you take another troops *not wolfy models* you will need to table the other guy to win :p If you was to play a themed base army, with the TWC approach, 3 units of 3 TWC is going to set you back 700+pts depending on upgrades + the lord on a TW close to 1k. Few packs of fenrisian wolves and may be a heavy support 1.5 easy. However the above is not competitive at all. Unless you can hide those units behind something or guaranty to move from cover to cover, you will be shot down very quickly. I have tried personally running a more wolfy army, x2 twc packs a lord on tw, and less standard troops and no wg and i just got shot down. Elite armies, you can make a Logan wing army, this again can be low unit count, and you will have a better chance in regards to its competitiveness. All WG become troops, and you can equip these bad boys with anything your heart desires. The only thing you might see with armies like these is that the number of units you will be fielding will be so low compared to some of your opponents. But like i said i am fairly new here, and hopefully someone with more experience can jump in on this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3465426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squark Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Regular Grey Hunters don't do elite models well at the moment. While they're competent at what they do, 160 points for 10 guys with a pair of plasmaguns is about as cheap as marines get. Now, with Logan unlocking Wolf Guard as troops, that's a different story. "Loganwing" As its known (An army consisting mostly of scoring wolf guard terminators) is, well... not great. Wolf guard Terminators primary perk is that they're inexpensive, but having to take Logan to unlock them nullifies any savings you'd get compared to Grey Knights (Who probably do Terminators as troops best at the moment, seeing as they're 40 points a piece, don't require an HQ to unlock them, and have frag grenades for some reason). Now, Logan-based armies can work, but we're not working with wolf guard terminators exclusively anymore. Logan Drop Pod armies actually are doing reasonably well at the moment based on tournament stats, although you go through a ton of combi-weapons making it. Which means buying tons of Sternguard boxes. Unfortunately, I'm not 100% solid on the exact build, so you'll have to look elsewhere for it. Pure-Wolf armies are a gag list. Canis is, well... bad, and Fenrisian wolf troops can't score. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3465461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardbattered Posted September 17, 2013 Author Share Posted September 17, 2013 Crap! I totally forgot about that rule! That really poops up the theme. Another thing a probably should have mentioned in the OP is that my main army is Deathwing, so I'm not too crazy about going with the loganwing route. I would really like to build a secondary force that would be a good foil to my deathwing. Otherwise that would have been a great direction to go. Hmmm, I guess it's time to start brainstorming again. If anyone has more input I would love to hear it. And thank you for the replies Sohail and Squark! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3465465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squark Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 hmm.... A foil to deathwing, you say? Well, TWC won't do too badly at that. Hrrmm... HQ: Rune Priest -100 points (Space Wolves cannot leave Rune Priests at home. Ever. We have the only defense in the game against the Screamerstar. And those who dare run that abomination need to have the fear of the Rout put in them). Troops: 10 Grey hunters -205 points -2 Plasmaguns, Wolf standard, Drop Pod 10 Grey Hunters -200 points -2 Meltaguns, wolf Standard, Drop Pod 8 Grey Hunters -170 points -Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Drop Pod Fast Attack: 4 Thunderwolf Cavalry -285 points -2 Storm Shields, Powerfist Heavy Support: 6 Long Fangs -140 points -5 Missile Missile Launchers 6 Long Fangs -140 points -5 Missile Launchers Total: 1240 points 10 points leftover. You've got the numbers Deathwing lack, as well as the mobility provided by TWC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3465487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sohail187 Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Regular Grey Hunters don't do elite models well at the moment. While they're competent at what they do, 160 points for 10 guys with a pair of plasmaguns is about as cheap as marines get. Now, with Logan unlocking Wolf Guard as troops, that's a different story. "Loganwing" As its known (An army consisting mostly of scoring wolf guard terminators) is, well... not great. Wolf guard Terminators primary perk is that they're inexpensive, but having to take Logan to unlock them nullifies any savings you'd get compared to Grey Knights (Who probably do Terminators as troops best at the moment, seeing as they're 40 points a piece, don't require an HQ to unlock them, and have frag grenades for some reason). Now, Logan-based armies can work, but we're not working with wolf guard terminators exclusively anymore. Logan Drop Pod armies actually are doing reasonably well at the moment based on tournament stats, although you go through a ton of combi-weapons making it. Which means buying tons of Sternguard boxes. Unfortunately, I'm not 100% solid on the exact build, so you'll have to look elsewhere for it. Pure-Wolf armies are a gag list. Canis is, well... bad, and Fenrisian wolf troops can't score. Getting the combi weapons you need is not that bad. You do not need to purchase the sternguard boxes. Many bits stores are have plenty of stock at the moment. 3 days ago i got 10 Arms to hold the new combi weapons for £4.50 (5 for 2.25) and £1.99 for each combi weapon. I got 10 plasma's. I am also eager to try out a loganwing. Just got to build the wg in power armour and magnetize them zzzzzzzzzzz. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3465492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 as others have stated, an all-wolf list is risky, you table the enemy, or you lose, BUT it is playable, and fun, for a while. It does get boring after a bit. went to a local tournament with a 1500 pts all-wolf list, and finnished 2nd a year or 2 back, so that was still under 5th. the biggest problem those lists have is the lack of long range fire support Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3465610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerEightBall Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Yeah Fenrisian Wolves just won't get the job done for you if you plan on playing the objectives game. If you want the ultimate Wolf-Themed list, and if your game group/any prospective tournaments allow Forge World, I'd look into Bran Redmaw (whose rules are in Imperial Armour 11). Not only is he just a fantastic wolf Lord, he can transform into a 12-foot tall Monstrous Creature Wolf of death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3465624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonsai Monkey Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Hello, If you go an all wolf list, I would recommend a fen unit to act as escort for each thunder unit. Not only can they act as a screen but send them in to any assault first followed by the thunders. Use them to soak up any lucky overwatch shots. Remember to use the leadership rerolls that come with the thunders for the fens, you might get lucky second time round. Use the fens to clear buildings and ruins, those dev type squads on the third floor arnt safe! Dont use canis as a hq, think of him as an expensive unit upgrade and spend some points on a decent hq. I havnt used this type of list lots, but sometimes you want to play a silly game and it was a laugh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3465860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 there is no legal way NOT to use canis as an HQ, unless I missed something tomewhere that states that if you use something or other, Canis ceases to be an HQ choise... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 there is no legal way NOT to use canis as an HQ, unless I missed something tomewhere that states that if you use something or other, Canis ceases to be an HQ choise... I'm pretty sure he wasn't saying go against it and act as if the rules state Canis to be a unit-upgrade akin to Arjac - more that the OP should 'think' of him as such, so don't view him as the only viable choice for running this type of army and instead go for a 'regular' thunderlord as you'll get far more bang for your buck. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squark Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 Well, the issue with Canis is he's a character with an AP 3 melee weapon focused on killing units... which, unless you have another character in the unit (Which requires taking another HQ), doesn't work. Well, that and he's LD 8, which is awful because one of the main reasons you take a Thunderwolf mounted character is to boost the leadership of TWC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 Russ Brother: kinda figured as much, but felt it neccesairy to clarify, to prevent others from searching thourgh their codex untill their beards reach their knees, trying to find a legal way to use canis as a non HQ choise ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 Grey hunter rhinos and some twolf calvary might make an interesting rush list. Might look something like this HQ 255 Twolf lord with runic armor, stormshield, powerfist, and saga of the bear 255 Troop 610 2x 10 GH plasmaguns, banner rhino 205 (410) 1x GH meltaguns banner rhino 200 Fast attack 455 5 thunder wolf calvary 2 stormshield 5 melta bombs 335 15 fenrisian wolves 120 Heavy support 6 longfangs 5 missile launchers razorback 180 1500 on the nose It is a bit higher model count then you may have been going for, but it is probably more competitive than the all wolf lists. A side note reguarding combi weaposns for terminators, just convert them. The Space wolves grey blog has a nice tutorial on how to do just that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 He meant use a TWL as your warlord, not Canis. By taking a TWL anyway, they have to be the main/warlord HQ as they're higher Leadership.On to the wolfs!HQCanis + 2 Fen WolvesTWL + 2 Fen WolvesTWL + 2 Fen WolvesTWL + 2 Fen WolvesElitesIP on TWL + 4 CyberwolvesIP on TWL + 4 CyberwolvesIP on TWL + 4 CyberwolvesTroops15 Fen Wolves15 Fen Wolves15 Fen Wolves15 Fen Wolves15 Fen Wolves15 Fen WolvesFast Attack5 TWC5 TWC5 TWCGrand Total:21 Thunderwolves.98 Fenrisian wolves.12 Cyberwolves.And it is completely legal.... now, someone else do the math on points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sohail187 Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 man that would look great on a table, covered in black grit / snow with same themed bases. But can you imagine hauling that around damm.... not only that £££££££ to get those models :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 i think a dropod force might be a good complementing force for your deathwing. since it seems nobody has suggested going that route. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 He meant use a TWL as your warlord, not Canis. By taking a TWL anyway, they have to be the main/warlord HQ as they're higher Leadership. ... And it is completely legal.... now, someone else do the math on points. 2,635pts plus upgrades. Too my mind, a better list would be: Canis & 2 Fen.Wolves TWLord & 2 Fen.Wolves TWLord & 2 Fen.Wolves 15 Fen.Wolves 15 Fen.Wolves 15 Fen.Wolves 15 Fen.Wolves 5 Fen.Wolves & Cyberwolf 5 Fen.Wolves & Cyberwolf 5 Thunderwolf Cavalry 5 Thunderwolf Cavalry 5 Thunderwolf Cavalry 1,877pts plus upgrades. The TWIP are a waste of points (155pts base for a WS4/W1/2A/non-IC model vs the above 165pt TWL). I really can't justify the cost/benefit to myself. I also took out one of the TWLs because he doesn't have a TWC unit to join, and the points freed gives a lot of upgrade room in a 2k list. However, I would probably take a third TWL w/ SotWK before taking Canis. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sohail187 Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 LOL u actually worked it out! beast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 My reasoning for the IPs on TWC was only to show exactly how many wolves you are allowed to put on the table, not what is viable. Though given the points cost, it's broken 2k and subject to double FOC allotment. :3 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLordSam Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275121-2000pts-twc-tide/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverghost_90 Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 This may seem a bit far fetched but putting wolves and Dark angel scum together doesn't seem very sensible! the Deathwing already have a "Foil" The Ravenwing! Once you start playing wolves things get strange and anything in green looks like a target, I struggle to walk past the green man on a crossing without growling at him! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonsai Monkey Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 Sorry for the poorly worded post, but it looks like everyone has cleaned it up for me. I didnt mean canis IS an upgrade, just to look at him as such and spend some points on a much better warlord. It would be brilliant if in the next codex they do make canis a unit upgrade (but who would????) and give us something akin to the sm biker captain rule. Scoring units of thunderwolves allround.............. mix in a few term units in pods and we could kind of have a weird version of the deathwing/ravenwing thing??? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/280424-might-be-joining-the-pack-could-use-some-input/#findComment-3466986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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