Power Armoured Knights in 6th

[Trokair]

I have been out of the hoppy for a while, and in that time 6^th edition rolled round. Back in 5^th I was planning a GK army with just Power Armoured  Knights, as I am not a fan of the terminator models.

 

So with the new edition what are the general opinions of PAGK?  

[Gentlemanloser]

Helldrakes have a Torrent AP3 Flamer.

 

Riptides can drop a lot of high AP shots.

 

Eldar get rending-lite on just about everyone.  Those that don't usually have AP3.

[Valerian]

So, the bottom line is that some Terminators really help stand up to all of the AP3 out there. They're also much more survivable to power weapons than before. There are AP2 threats out there, too, but that class of weapons are justifiably more expensive, and a little less prevalent. I've gone the opposite direction and have 22 Terminator armored troops in my base army, then fill in the gaps with PAGK.

 

Not saying you have to go this route, but there are advantages. Purifier spam took a big hit in 6e.

[Dread]

That's a fact. I only use Draigo, paladins, dread knights and termies anymore because of the helldrakes. I have a lot of CSM players in my group and now Tau. Really hard to field our regular troops when a single turn from a drake can wipe out 2 units a turn (5 man units that is). With only the storm raven as skyfire, well, you know. Still fun to field but a bit harder with the new dex's.

[Trokair]

So the consensus is that PAGK are on the sidelines until at least a new Codex or Edition, I guess I will have to wait to build a GK army for a while more. Thank you all for the replies.

[Gentlemanloser]

Don't write them off too quickly.

 

Divination Strom Bolters are still ace, and there's always Rhinos or Dark Angel Power Field Generators.

[boreas]

That and warp quake is still a very good power. A unit of 10 GKSS with psybolts (divided in 2 combat-squads) will be able to hold home-base objectives while poking at rhinos and other small units and provide some safety against incoming Deep-strike.  But as much as I fielded an all GKSS army(with DKs and =I= units as support) up to a few months ago, I'm now painting another 10 termies and converting paladins (from cataphractii).

[jeffersonian000]

I've been playing TDA heavy for ages now, with the only PAGK a single squad each of SS and IS. Both will have Psybolts and combat squad (unless its a KP game), and fill the roll of fire bases and area denial (static for the SS, mobile for IS). The rest of the army are GKTs that do the rest of the heavy lifting (Ghostwing with 2 squads of GKT as support).

 

Unfortunately for the PAGK in my army, I have added 2 DKs recently, which are a hell of a lot of fun to play, and use the PA points in my army, leaving the IS for bigger games and the SS on the work bench for magnetizing into IS.

 

SJ

[Dr Zaius]

Scoutting purifiers in a Rhino and some Psycannons or Incinerators are still very good

[AnImA8]

I ran MSU Razorback Purifiers for a while until Heldrakes and Imhotek made it practically unplayable. Terminators were an out from the weakness of PAGK's, but Dark Angels, Tau, and Bladestorming Eldar really forced my hand there. What I've decided now is that there is a solid mixture of PA to TDA GK's that works well enough.

The PA GK's suffered because Heldrakes could both kill the transport and the guys inside in the same turn. Likewise, Imhotek's lightning scales with the size of the army he's against so MSU is dead in the water. Alternatively Terminators just simply don't have the model count to make them efficient against so much AP2.

So, mixing PA GK's and TDA GK's creates an interesting dynamic: your opponent may have loads of AP3, but the Terminators will continue on; or your opponent may have loads of AP2, but you'll have enough PA guys to win out in the end. What will really throw a wrench in your opponent's plan is having a couple of Land Raiders. A pair of AV 14 vehicles becomes a huge wake-up call for a meta dominated by S7- weapons. Now your opponent will either be forced to wait until you get out of the LR's (which is when they lose the Initiative), or start adding in more meltas (which detracts from the number of AP 3 and 2 weapons they have).

Is a mixed durability army perfect? Not by any stretch. You either have options against all-in "rock-paper-scissor" style metas, or you force your meta to become more balanced, and either of those make the games more winnable.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I ran MSU Razorback Purifiers for a while until Heldrakes and Imhotek made it practically unplayable. Terminators were an out from the weakness of PAGK's, but Dark Angels, Tau, and Bladestorming Eldar really forced my hand there. What I've decided now is that there is a solid mixture of PA to TDA GK's that works well enough.

 

The PA GK's suffered because Heldrakes could both kill the transport and the guys inside in the same turn. Likewise, Imhotek's lightning scales with the size of the army he's against so MSU is dead in the water. Alternatively Terminators just simply don't have the model count to make them efficient against so much AP2.

 

So, mixing PA GK's and TDA GK's creates an interesting dynamic: your opponent may have loads of AP3, but the Terminators will continue on; or your opponent may have loads of AP2, but you'll have enough PA guys to win out in the end. What will really throw a wrench in your opponent's plan is having a couple of Land Raiders. A pair of AV 14 vehicles becomes a huge wake-up call for a meta dominated by S7- weapons. Now your opponent will either be forced to wait until you get out of the LR's (which is when they lose the Initiative), or start adding in more meltas (which detracts from the number of AP 3 and 2 weapons they have).

 

Is a mixed durability army perfect? Not by any stretch. You either have options against all-in "rock-paper-scissor" style metas, or you force your meta to become more balanced, and either of those make the games more winnable.

Mixing dilutes the effectiveness of taking either one or the other. You're just wasting points and confusing the focus of your list. 

 

Taking Land Raiders is the worst idea by far in your analysis. Land Raiders haven't been viable since 5th edition IG dropped. Even other Marines don't bother with them anymore, especially not since GW handed out Ravens to everyone. You cannot assume your opponent won't have melta, it still pops multi-wound T4 very efficiently, and it nukes tanks efficiently (HP stripping works too, but against Necron AV13 spam melta is superior, as just one example). Melta isn't being spammed to the extent that 5th edition pushed (and as we should all remember, it really was mostly IG doing that), but its still the premier way to turn enemy vehicles into flaming wreckage. 

 

My personal feeling is until they nerf Riptides and Drakes, or give us even cheaper infantry (neither of which is likely), all our PA units stay on the shelf. Strikes are okay in a casual list, but I'd keep them off table with 'Psychic Communion' for as long as possible, let them hit Turn 3 or Turn 4 to hit an enemy objective that's vulnerable. Even then, I can see arguments for just taking DK's to do the same job (230 for teleporter+sword versus 220 for ten dudes and double psycannon...), and a GM can give it scoring if you really need it. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

and as we should all remember, it really was mostly IG doing that

 

Dual Meltagun Wolves as well. ;)

 

I'm actually considering sticking my PA dudes to oblong bike bases and trying to pursaude my mates my GKs are TL Bolter Bikes, and they move quick due to personal teleporters. ;)

 

(Running them as a Khan based WS bike list, with Psycannons as Grav rifles)

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Personally i run a majority term list with 1squad of PA and 1 inter squad, it served me well through 5th and continues to do the same in 6th. Its a 33 model list it has a decent body count for 1500 gk's. I think the main aim with gk's is what it has always been, get into cc and try to walk through your opponents army. Only major issues atm can be skyfire but with some luck or a stormraven you can sort that. So in conclusion i'd say aim for balance between TDA and PA.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Dual Meltagun Wolves as well.

Double melta is fine. Triple melta for cheaper than Marine prices is when it got stupid and no-brainer. Pod Wolves, just like all Pod lists, die to Interceptor Riptides this edition anyway, so its a dead army list.

Personally i run a majority term list with 1squad of PA and 1 inter squad, it served me well through 5th and continues to do the same in 6th. Its a 33 model list it has a decent body count for 1500 gk's. I think the main aim with gk's is what it has always been, get into cc and try to walk through your opponents army. Only major issues atm can be skyfire but with some luck or a stormraven you can sort that. So in conclusion i'd say aim for balance between TDA and PA.

I'd suggest you play against CSM and/or Daemons, and have some battles against Tau. They will make you regret ever choosing Marines as an army. Raven's are okay against CSM and Daemons, as their AA options resort to 'throw a bunch of shots skyward and hope for 6's'. Tau however will Intercept and Skyfire you, sometimes at the same time, ignore your Jink or break it with massed hits. Also, due to the stupid disembark rules for Ravens (6th edition hates transports for some unknown reason), if you move over 6" you can't use the Assault Ramp and it clusters you into little Derpstrike blobs perfect for a Riptide to place a pie plate over.

You're correct that once we're in melee, Knights win, but Tau and CSM/Daemons won't let you engage on good terms. They'll murder your units down into remnants with shooting, then sacrifice cheap fodder to delay you reaching the important stuff (Cultists for the former, Kroot for the latter). It's intensely frustrating how broken Heldrakes and Riptides are.

[AnImA8]

Mixing dilutes the effectiveness of taking either one or the other. You're just wasting points and confusing the focus of your list.

 

Taking Land Raiders is the worst idea by far in your analysis. Land Raiders haven't been viable since 5th edition IG dropped. Even other Marines don't bother with them anymore, especially not since GW handed out Ravens to everyone. You cannot assume your opponent won't have melta, it still pops multi-wound T4 very efficiently, and it nukes tanks efficiently (HP stripping works too, but against Necron AV13 spam melta is superior, as just one example). Melta isn't being spammed to the extent that 5th edition pushed (and as we should all remember, it really was mostly IG doing that), but its still the premier way to turn enemy vehicles into flaming wreckage.

 

My personal feeling is until they nerf Riptides and Drakes, or give us even cheaper infantry (neither of which is likely), all our PA units stay on the shelf. Strikes are okay in a casual list, but I'd keep them off table with 'Psychic Communion' for as long as possible, let them hit Turn 3 or Turn 4 to hit an enemy objective that's vulnerable. Even then, I can see arguments for just taking DK's to do the same job (230 for teleporter+sword versus 220 for ten dudes and double psycannon...), and a GM can give it scoring if you really need it.

I hear this particular argument about not mixing saves, or not mixing AV's for fear of diluting effectiveness all the time, and the thing is: it's really only true in a vacuum. In such a perfect, vacuum world mixing defensive stats in your army would allow your opponent to always array the most appropriate weapon to the most appropriate target (plasma to terminator, melta to land raider, etc, etc). In actuality KNOWING that my opponent is going to want to array his weapons in such a way is just as much an advantage for me as it is for them. It means that now I can deny certain weapons of his by presenting targets that are not ideal, or by dangling targets that are ideal in a bait that pulls him out of position.

 

For instance your argument against my suggesting Land Raiders is essentially that meltas exist. Or more so, that I assume my opponent isn't going to use meltas (which is even more odd lol). But while I've never assumed that meltas don't exist in my list writing, what I have assumed is that my opponent will need to get to within 6-12" in order to use them. This is my advantage, because it means I can use things like Warpquake to deny Deepstrikers the opportunity to use melta, or I can punish the opponent for attempting to melta the LR by having, say, Terminators inside of it that can assault, or Strikes nearby that can shoot up the melta squad. With good play my opponent cannot melta my LR without recourse within the first 3-4 turns. All the while the LR adds mobility, ranged AT, and protection to the guys inside. If it dies by turn 3-4 while fulfilling those previously named functions, then I consider it to have been points well spent.

 

So in the case of making Strikes useable, it definitely stands as a valuable option.

 

 

 

Personally i run a majority term list with 1squad of PA and 1 inter squad, it served me well through 5th and continues to do the same in 6th. Its a 33 model list it has a decent body count for 1500 gk's. I think the main aim with gk's is what it has always been, get into cc and try to walk through your opponents army. Only major issues atm can be skyfire but with some luck or a stormraven you can sort that. So in conclusion i'd say aim for balance between TDA and PA.

I'd suggest you play against CSM and/or Daemons, and have some battles against Tau. They will make you regret ever choosing Marines as an army. Raven's are okay against CSM and Daemons, as their AA options resort to 'throw a bunch of shots skyward and hope for 6's'. Tau however will Intercept and Skyfire you, sometimes at the same time, ignore your Jink or break it with massed hits. Also, due to the stupid disembark rules for Ravens (6th edition hates transports for some unknown reason), if you move over 6" you can't use the Assault Ramp and it clusters you into little Derpstrike blobs perfect for a Riptide to place a pie plate over.

 

You're correct that once we're in melee, Knights win, but Tau and CSM/Daemons won't let you engage on good terms. They'll murder your units down into remnants with shooting, then sacrifice cheap fodder to delay you reaching the important stuff (Cultists for the former, Kroot for the latter). It's intensely frustrating how broken Heldrakes and Riptides are.

I won't talk down on your frustration at all, because it is completely valid. My local meta is FILLED with Heldrake CSM's and Riptide Tau. It's immensely frustrating to know that these incredibly powerful options carry so much weight in what would otherwise be decent codices. But they can be dealt with, and I've found that completely switching gears to all Terminators is a kneejerk reaction that won't yield great results since both armies have a wide variety of options for dealing with Terminators too.

 

Personally I have been and will continue to be running:

 

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor: /w terminator dreadnought armor, nemesis daemon hammer, psycannon, and psyker mastery level 1 (divination): 110 pts

 

Strikes (10): /w 2x psycannons, Justicar: /w nemesis daemon hammer; and psybolt ammunition: 250 pts

Terminators (5): /w psycannon and nemesis force sword, 2x nemesis force halberds, and 2x nemesis daemon hammers: 225 pts

Strikes (6): /w psycannon, and Justicar: /w nemesis daemon hammer: 140 pts

Razorback: /w psybolt ammuniton: 50 pts

Strikes (6): /w psycannon, and Justicar: /w nemesis daemon hammer: 140 pts

Razorback: /w psybolt ammunition: 50 pts

 

Stormraven: /w twin-linked multi-melta, twin-linked assault cannon, sponson hurricane pattern bolters, and psybolt ammunition: 255 pts

 

Land Raider: 255 pts

Dreadnought: /w 2x twin-linked autocannon, and psybolt ammunition: 135 pts

Dreadnought: /w 2x twin-linked autocannon, and psybolt ammunition: 135 pts

 

Total Points: 1745 pts

Total Models: 28 infantry, 3 tanks, 2 walkers, and 1 flyer

 

And this list plays practically like my Water Warrior list back with the 3rd ed codex, except without having to rely on the 2-3 LRs since SRs and RB's can take their place.

[Dread]

I like the list AnImA8, however we play 1850 games, so what would you add for the other 100 pts?

[Gentlemanloser]

Coteaz. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I hear this particular argument about not mixing saves, or not mixing AV's for fear of diluting effectiveness all the time, and the thing is: it's really only true in a vacuum. In such a perfect, vacuum world mixing defensive stats in your army would allow your opponent to always array the most appropriate weapon to the most appropriate target (plasma to terminator, melta to land raider, etc, etc). In actuality KNOWING that my opponent is going to want to array his weapons in such a way is just as much an advantage for me as it is for them. It means that now I can deny certain weapons of his by presenting targets that are not ideal, or by dangling targets that are ideal in a bait that pulls him out of position.

I'll make my argument simpler. If you bring Terminators, and he didn't bring a lot of AP2 to deal with them, he's in trouble, because Terminators are designed to soak up massed fire and keep going. 6th edition is really pushing infantry in a big way, so a lot of armies are going to bring plasma and massed fire over the old melta spam or mech lists of yesteryear. 

 

That's why Deathwing works. It has bad matchups, like all lists, but its all scoring all day and it outclasses all but equally expensive melee units. Ranged units can't put much of a dent in it without AP2. Unlike our Terminator lists, they also get storm shields, which means AP2 you do bring is going to get tanked a lot. They bring twin-linked plasma cannons on the turn they drop as well, which is hilarious (as they perfectly hard-counter any enemy 2+ saves you bring to kill them). 

 

We aren't quite as nuts as Deathwing, but we can deal with Daemons better (which is relevant at the moment), and unlike them we can charge through terrain and hit at Initiative with our absurd halberds due to frags. We also have psk-out and better 'Deny' rolls against psychic powers, and with more psykers around than ever before, that's become more relevant. 

 

For instance your argument against my suggesting Land Raiders is essentially that meltas exist. Or more so, that I assume my opponent isn't going to use meltas (which is even more odd lol). But while I've never assumed that meltas don't exist in my list writing, what I have assumed is that my opponent will need to get to within 6-12" in order to use them. This is my advantage, because it means I can use things like Warpquake to deny Deepstrikers the opportunity to use melta, or I can punish the opponent for attempting to melta the LR by having, say, Terminators inside of it that can assault, or Strikes nearby that can shoot up the melta squad. With good play my opponent cannot melta my LR without recourse within the first 3-4 turns. All the while the LR adds mobility, ranged AT, and protection to the guys inside. If it dies by turn 3-4 while fulfilling those previously named functions, then I consider it to have been points well spent.

There are plenty of fast melta platforms which can zip up to your Raiders, 'Quake' or no, and blow it up. Attack Bikers are just one example, there are Tau Piranhas, Landspeeders, DE Reavers (S6 but its lance so works out similar), Eldar Serpents will cover save your shots and dump an MSU Dragons squad into it....and there are still ways to nuke it from range, with Railheads or combining Fire Prisms, Doomsday Arks etc. S8+ can glance it too don't forget, so spamming lascannon into it is a viable way to blow it up. DE love watching you bring expensive tanks to the game, their lance weaponry becomes relevant again. 

 

LR's are incredibly inefficient gun platforms. You're paying as much as a Terminator combat squad, or a full Strike squad with psycannons and psybolts, for two twin lascannons and a heavy bolter. Or, you can go the close-range variants, which take 2 turns to reach effective range anyway (if the enemy doesn't stand still that is). 

 

 

I won't talk down on your frustration at all, because it is completely valid. My local meta is FILLED with Heldrake CSM's and Riptide Tau. It's immensely frustrating to know that these incredibly powerful options carry so much weight in what would otherwise be decent codices. But they can be dealt with, and I've found that completely switching gears to all Terminators is a kneejerk reaction that won't yield great results since both armies have a wide variety of options for dealing with Terminators too.

Chaos don't. They have Nurgle Obliterators (which they bring anyway), Heldrakes do practically nothing to Terminators. Plague Marine plasma needs to get within 12" to start being a problem. Other than that...their codex is superb at clearing chaff and breaking mech, but Terminators murder all the relevant Cult Troops with ease. Oblits I'm taking care of with teleporting DK's. 

Against Tau, I'd bring teleporting DK's and make them choose; either their Riptide dies to a greatsword to the face, or I get my Terminators up the field intact. I'm experimenting with Ravens dropping DCA+Crusaders and having a teleport homer bring in Terminators as well. I've tried Purifiers but they're just too expensive and die too easily. 

 

 

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor: /w terminator dreadnought armor, nemesis daemon hammer, psycannon, and psyker mastery level 1 (divination): 110 pts

If you're not fielding Coteaz, you can get two 'Prescience' Inquisitors for cheaper than this guy. That's two dudes handing out re-rolls every turn, rather than one expensive one. I run this build myself, but below 2k (where we only have 2 HQ slots), I'd give double Inquisitor a go. Even Coteaz+'Prescience' Inquisitor isn't substantially more expensive. 

 

Strikes (10): /w 2x psycannons, Justicar: /w nemesis daemon hammer; and psybolt ammunition: 250 pts

Terminators (5): /w psycannon and nemesis force sword, 2x nemesis force halberds, and 2x nemesis daemon hammers: 225 pts

Strikes (6): /w psycannon, and Justicar: /w nemesis daemon hammer: 140 pts

Razorback: /w psybolt ammuniton: 50 pts

Strikes (6): /w psycannon, and Justicar: /w nemesis daemon hammer: 140 pts

Razorback: /w psybolt ammunition: 50 pts

I'd recommend full hammers for the Terminators. In such a small squad, every casualty hurts, so you want to ensure when you hit enemy lines you're hitting with S8/10 AP2 attacks that murder everything. 

 

If you didn't have the LR's as well, I'd write off the Razors entirely. Provided you can block LOS to them with the big fat Raider chassis, they should do okay. AV11 is just so weak in 6th...its depressing how easily its taken out by anything from Crons to CSM to Eldar. 

 

Stormraven: /w twin-linked multi-melta, twin-linked assault cannon, sponson hurricane pattern bolters, and psybolt ammunition: 255 pts

Cool stuff. I prefer the cheaper anti-tank build, but the gunship version works too. 

 

Land Raider: 255 pts

Dreadnought: /w 2x twin-linked autocannon, and psybolt ammunition: 135 pts

Dreadnought: /w 2x twin-linked autocannon, and psybolt ammunition: 135 pts

One Landraider...yeah no. Its absurdly easily to take it out, especially as the other 250pt+ problem vehicle (your Raven) won't be on till Turn 2 at least, which gives them at least on turn to react and try to destroy it in isolation. 

 

PsyDreads are pretty standard stuff. 

 

Total Points: 1745 pts

Total Models: 28 infantry, 3 tanks, 2 walkers, and 1 flyer

Razorbacks aren't tanks, they're more like paper-mache mobile bunkers that force your opponent to use two units to hurt your infantry; one to remove the metal shell, the other to chew up the meat as it spills out. At 1,500 I have more infantry than this, and I don't bring even half the mech you do. 

 

(shrug) I dunno what your opponents are like, but even a balanced Tau, Cron, Eldar or IG list will take that apart with decent play. You present an obvious focus with the LR, with no real distraction from it until the Raven shows up. The Razors I don't see lasting either, S6/S7 spam has entered its most obnoxiously common state in the meta since Hydras became popular (Havok autocannons, Horrors, Lootaz, Serpent Spam...). Once they de-mech you, they only need to worry about the Terminators, which again present an obvious target as there is only one squad. After that...they have to kill 22 Tactical Marines with storm bolters and a smattering of psycannon. 

 

I think if you went double LR, it might work better. That way, you'd force a dilution of firepower, or ensure one doesn't get focused (as the other one does and dies). I'd also drop the big Strike squad for another Terminator unit, to load into the other LR. You start with more threats on the board, or you could even load the Strikes into the LR's and use the Razors as mobile gunboats (and thus not care if they die), whilst Deepstriking the Termies in (obviously not against Tau though). 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Razorbacks aren't tanks, they're more like paper-mache mobile bunkers that force your opponent to use two units to hurt your infantry; one to remove the metal shell, the other to chew up the meat as it spills out. At 1,500 I have more infantry than this, and I don't bring even half the mech you do.

 

Razorbacks aren't Tanks, nor transports.

 

They are multiwound heavy weapon bases, that are generally immune to small arms fire.

 

;)

[AnImA8]

I like the list AnImA8, however we play 1850 games, so what would you add for the other 100 pts?

Honestly, I'd probably drop a lot of upgrades (like the dakka on the SR, a guy off each of the MSU Strikes, etc) and bump the Terminators to 10 man.

I'll make my argument simpler. If you bring Terminators, and he didn't bring a lot of AP2 to deal with them, he's in trouble, because Terminators are designed to soak up massed fire and keep going. 6th edition is really pushing infantry in a big way, so a lot of armies are going to bring plasma and massed fire over the old melta spam or mech lists of yesteryear.

That's why Deathwing works. It has bad matchups, like all lists, but its all scoring all day and it outclasses all but equally expensive melee units. Ranged units can't put much of a dent in it without AP2. Unlike our Terminator lists, they also get storm shields, which means AP2 you do bring is going to get tanked a lot. They bring twin-linked plasma cannons on the turn they drop as well, which is hilarious (as they perfectly hard-counter any enemy 2+ saves you bring to kill them).

See I find this particular argument strange. Because for me, I've never needed to bring a lot of AP2 to deal with Deathwing (in fact, like you point out, because of Storm Shields I find it to be a waste of time). Instead I have always dealt with Terminators through massed fire, because pound-for-pound they ARE the equivalent of normal marines against AP4+ weaponry. Lol there's a reason I like Strikes so much and stand by them. Equally expensive melee units aren't how you deal with Deathwing, how you deal with deathwing is by focusing fire and gunning them down each turn.

There are plenty of fast melta platforms which can zip up to your Raiders, 'Quake' or no, and blow it up. Attack Bikers are just one example, there are Tau Piranhas, Landspeeders, DE Reavers (S6 but its lance so works out similar), Eldar Serpents will cover save your shots and dump an MSU Dragons squad into it....and there are still ways to nuke it from range, with Railheads or combining Fire Prisms, Doomsday Arks etc. S8+ can glance it too don't forget, so spamming lascannon into it is a viable way to blow it up. DE love watching you bring expensive tanks to the game, their lance weaponry becomes relevant again.

LR's are incredibly inefficient gun platforms. You're paying as much as a Terminator combat squad, or a full Strike squad with psycannons and psybolts, for two twin lascannons and a heavy bolter. Or, you can go the close-range variants, which take 2 turns to reach effective range anyway (if the enemy doesn't stand still that is).

It seems like you're glossing over parts of my argument again. Warpquake is one of a variety of tools in the belt (specifically meant to deal with droppods). If my opponent has a mobility edge over me, then I bunker down and let him either break against me or put himself out of position. The LR can sit in the middle of my formation, with the Terminators inside as counter-assault. Meanwhile DE suffer GREATLY against my ranged fire (literally everything I have threaten them). Marines are marines, and while their Landspeeders might be able to crack my formation, again, they won't be able to do so without a response. That particular hypothetical really depends on the list, and either way a lot can be done in 1-2 turns of fire.

You're really hung up here on the inefficiency of the LR as a gun platform (and even then PotMS, I've found really makes the thing shine, especially when compared to CSM LR's lol). You need to include into your calculation not just the points it can make back by itself, but also the points of Terminators/Strikes that are spared AP2 or AP3 fire because they were inside it, the effect on a game of being able to assault out of it (which is HUGE in 6th ed), and the amount of firepower it soaks up instead of my dreadnoughts/razorbacks with its absurd 4 hull points.

Chaos don't. They have Nurgle Obliterators (which they bring anyway), Heldrakes do practically nothing to Terminators. Plague Marine plasma needs to get within 12" to start being a problem. Other than that...their codex is superb at clearing chaff and breaking mech, but Terminators murder all the relevant Cult Troops with ease. Oblits I'm taking care of with teleporting DK's.

Against Tau, I'd bring teleporting DK's and make them choose; either their Riptide dies to a greatsword to the face, or I get my Terminators up the field intact. I'm experimenting with Ravens dropping DCA+Crusaders and having a teleport homer bring in Terminators as well. I've tried Purifiers but they're just too expensive and die too easily.

Really depends on the lists your playing I suppose then, because my opponents frequently bring Vindicators, Daemon Princes, Plasma Weapons, Lascannons, and Obliterators (since after all, the bane of CSM's is definitely Deathwing). And let's not talk down Obliterators; there is a reason they're auto-includes in everybody's list lol.

If you're not fielding Coteaz, you can get two 'Prescience' Inquisitors for cheaper than this guy. That's two dudes handing out re-rolls every turn, rather than one expensive one. I run this build myself, but below 2k (where we only have 2 HQ slots), I'd give double Inquisitor a go. Even Coteaz+'Prescience' Inquisitor isn't substantially more expensive.

I stay away from Coteaz and other named characters. Two Prescience Inquisitors also doesn't give me what I need. Slay the Warlord is big in swinging games where I'm at, so TDA and an NDH are useful. Combine that with a Relentless Psycannon and Prescience (or even the 4++ power) and for a 110 pts, the guy is a steal.

I'd recommend full hammers for the Terminators. In such a small squad, every casualty hurts, so you want to ensure when you hit enemy lines you're hitting with S8/10 AP2 attacks that murder everything.

If you didn't have the LR's as well, I'd write off the Razors entirely. Provided you can block LOS to them with the big fat Raider chassis, they should do okay. AV11 is just so weak in 6th...its depressing how easily its taken out by anything from Crons to CSM to Eldar.

I'll play around with the Terminators like you say. They're flexible; I'll see what works for me

As for the LR's and RB's, it's just as you say: they complement each other very well

And yea, AV11 is weak, but it's not depressing to me, it's just one more thing that factors into my game calculations is all.

One Landraider...yeah no. Its absurdly easily to take it out, especially as the other 250pt+ problem vehicle (your Raven) won't be on till Turn 2 at least, which gives them at least on turn to react and try to destroy it in isolation.

PsyDreads are pretty standard stuff.

See above comments about LR durability and use.

Razorbacks aren't tanks, they're more like paper-mache mobile bunkers that force your opponent to use two units to hurt your infantry; one to remove the metal shell, the other to chew up the meat as it spills out. At 1,500 I have more infantry than this, and I don't bring even half the mech you do.

(shrug) I dunno what your opponents are like, but even a balanced Tau, Cron, Eldar or IG list will take that apart with decent play. You present an obvious focus with the LR, with no real distraction from it until the Raven shows up. The Razors I don't see lasting either, S6/S7 spam has entered its most obnoxiously common state in the meta since Hydras became popular (Havok autocannons, Horrors, Lootaz, Serpent Spam...). Once they de-mech you, they only need to worry about the Terminators, which again present an obvious target as there is only one squad. After that...they have to kill 22 Tactical Marines with storm bolters and a smattering of psycannon.

I think if you went double LR, it might work better. That way, you'd force a dilution of firepower, or ensure one doesn't get focused (as the other one does and dies). I'd also drop the big Strike squad for another Terminator unit, to load into the other LR. You start with more threats on the board, or you could even load the Strikes into the LR's and use the Razors as mobile gunboats (and thus not care if they die), whilst Deepstriking the Termies in (obviously not against Tau though).

Well Razorbacks are technically "Tanks" under their entries lol. As for what you bring in 1500 pts, that's cool. It sounds like that works for you. If I weren't bringing mechanized I'd probably have more infantry than this list atm too. But the list holds up better than you're suggesting. Part of it is that you don't need multiple distractions of the same class in order to be effective. If they focus the LR it's going to take a lot, and that's a lot not going towards my Psyflemen and MSU Strikes. If they focus the Psyflemen and Strikes, by the time I'm done with them they're never going to have enough to deal with the LR. The Stormraven doesn't need to come in until T2-3 as you suppose, but once it does it's a punch in the gut. The thing hurts, and the guys inside only exacerbate the problem. I tried double LR, but it just doesn't have the firepower the Psyflemen bring.

As to the enemy "de-meching" me. In most games I've played, I've found by the end that my RB's are gone, and the LR is dead as well. But typically the Terminators are still around and so are most of the Strikes. That's all I need to win by the end of the day.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

So really we've reached the conclusion that PAGK can be effective depending on play style and local meta. So the best advice is play some games and see what you like personally. Just make sure your units stick to their intended purpose and with the dice gods on your side hope to claim some victories for the lords of titan.

[AnImA8]

@Brother Captain Sirus: lol the dice gods are never on my side. XD

[Inquisitor Fox]

What I find ironic is it seems the new edition has the army functioning like it's fluff.  A core of terminator armed generalists supported by power armored specialists, which is the inverse of how other Chapters operate.

 

Almost as if GW planned it that way...

[Dosjetka]

Almost as if GW planned it that way...

Alpharius, he's everywhere!

[Gentlemanloser]

What, as a tiny army that's allied to the main force in the battle?

 

(As we're just not worth it to be run as primary)

 

All hail the fluff! ;)