Power Armoured Knights in 6th

[Reclusiarch Darius]

See I find this particular argument strange. Because for me, I've never needed to bring a lot of AP2 to deal with Deathwing (in fact, like you point out, because of Storm Shields I find it to be a waste of time). Instead I have always dealt with Terminators through massed fire, because pound-for-pound they ARE the equivalent of normal marines against AP4+ weaponry. Lol there's a reason I like Strikes so much and stand by them. Equally expensive melee units aren't how you deal with Deathwing, how you deal with deathwing is by focusing fire and gunning them down each turn.

I'm not advocating taking Knights against Deathwing. Ever. They are the Anti-Christ for us. Plasma cannons on the drop, 2+ saves everywhere with 3++ backup...our Terminator get rekt before they can even try and hammer them down. I'd take a Henchmen list with massed plasma cannon servitors, or even my Dr Zaius list, instead of my balanced Knight list.

It seems like you're glossing over parts of my argument again. Warpquake is one of a variety of tools in the belt (specifically meant to deal with droppods). If my opponent has a mobility edge over me, then I bunker down and let him either break against me or put himself out of position. The LR can sit in the middle of my formation, with the Terminators inside as counter-assault. Meanwhile DE suffer GREATLY against my ranged fire (literally everything I have threaten them). Marines are marines, and while their Landspeeders might be able to crack my formation, again, they won't be able to do so without a response. That particular hypothetical really depends on the list, and either way a lot can be done in 1-2 turns of fire.

No, you're flat out ignoring obvious threats to your army. You have one AV14 vehicle. All the enemy melta will converge on it, I guarantee it, because it's the best use of their melta by far. Yeah, your PsyDreads range a lot of the fast melta platforms, but area terrain and Jink can mean Bikers/Speeders/whatever survive your one Shooting phase and get into nuke range (ie move+melta range).

What formation? If your Razors are in LOS of the enemy, and they have the proper weapon to deal with them, they're likely dead in one turn. Serpent Spam can box you in and cover angles you can't deal with, then once everything but the LR is dead, they use Dragons on it. PsyDreads will last a little longer with AV12, but there are only two of them to worry about.

I'm not being hypothetical. I've seen LR's destroyed Turn 1 by enemy melta. I've lost both my PsyDreads Turn 1 to massed fire. 6th is brutal on vehicles. Just like with AP in melee, GW completely went overboard in their attempts to balance the mistakes of 5th. HP is the second dumbest mechanic in the game.

You're really hung up here on the inefficiency of the LR as a gun platform (and even then PotMS, I've found really makes the thing shine, especially when compared to CSM LR's lol). You need to include into your calculation not just the points it can make back by itself, but also the points of Terminators/Strikes that are spared AP2 or AP3 fire because they were inside it, the effect on a game of being able to assault out of it (which is HUGE in 6th ed), and the amount of firepower it soaks up instead of my dreadnoughts/razorbacks with its absurd 4 hull points.

The cargo has value separate to the vehicle itself. That's why I like Ravens; they do everything LR's are supposed to do, but more reliably, faster and with fewer hard-counters. 4HP is nice but its not that much really. Also, you ignore the fact LR's don't generally die to having their HP chipped away, they die to high Strength. Ie melta, which has been true for at least three editions now.

Really depends on the lists your playing I suppose then, because my opponents frequently bring Vindicators, Daemon Princes, Plasma Weapons, Lascannons, and Obliterators (since after all, the bane of CSM's is definitely Deathwing). And let's not talk down Obliterators; there is a reason they're auto-includes in everybody's list lol.

Not really. I'd be surprised if people aren't bringing melta in their lists. Oblits are broken, have been since they first released them. I like they make them switch weapon every turn now, but it barely restrains them really.

I stay away from Coteaz and other named characters. Two Prescience Inquisitors also doesn't give me what I need. Slay the Warlord is big in swinging games where I'm at, so TDA and an NDH are useful. Combine that with a Relentless Psycannon and Prescience (or even the 4++ power) and for a 110 pts, the guy is a steal.

Coteaz is money though. He's unlike almost any other SC in the game, in that he's got no drawbacks.

If Slay the Warlord is big in your meta, fair enough, Termie Inquisitor gets the job done.

I'll play around with the Terminators like you say. They're flexible; I'll see what works for me

I'm trialling half halberds (halberd on Justicar is pretty money, he often doesn't fight 2+ save characters so challenges are a breeze usually), half hammers. Might go back to full hammers if I find the loss of reliable damage isn't worth the speed.

If they focus the LR it's going to take a lot, and that's a lot not going towards my Psyflemen and MSU Strikes.

One fast melta unit or two is all they need. They probably weren't going to use it on the PsyDreads or Strikes anyway, unless its something like a Biker squad that can do that job too. It's really not that hard to kill an LR. Unless you are Orks and didn't bring Allies or a SAG for the lulz.

As to the enemy "de-meching" me. In most games I've played, I've found by the end that my RB's are gone, and the LR is dead as well. But typically the Terminators are still around and so are most of the Strikes. That's all I need to win by the end of the day.

Weird. They never do much to the infantry, which is not my experience. My PA units get rekt every game, even if they're taking armour saves they're taking a lot and failing a few, enough that I'm fighting with bloodied remnants by mid-game.

So really we've reached the conclusion that PAGK can be effective depending on play style and local meta. So the best advice is play some games and see what you like personally. Just make sure your units stick to their intended purpose and with the dice gods on your side hope to claim some victories for the lords of titan.

No, I'd be more explicit. You need to deliver your PA via either Derpstrike or Ravens (or if the enemy doesn't have good hard-counters, LR might work). Footslogging and Razorspam died with the release of 6th.

If for some unknown reason your Tau, Eldar, Necron, IG, CSM, Daemon and Marine players all like losing and playing janky 'theme' lists...then yeah, our PA squads are worthwhile going mid-field and being the flexible generalists we loved in 5th. But the minute they bring Riptides, Oblits, Heldrakes, Dev Centurions...prepare to cry.

What I find ironic is it seems the new edition has the army functioning like it's fluff. A core of terminator armed generalists supported by power armored specialists, which is the inverse of how other Chapters operate.

Almost as if GW planned it that way...

I wouldn't be surprised. We're one of the most obvious 'pre-heated for 6th edition meta' codicies ever written. Mastery levels, warding stave Justicars, Grand Strategy changing up our army between mission types, a Raven with anti-psyker frag missiles, Troop Terminators before Heldrakes were even a twinkle in the design teams evil eyes...it's so blindingly obvious in hindsight. Oh, and we hard-counter Daemons, the new flavour of the month broken power army.

What, as a tiny army that's allied to the main force in the battle?

(As we're just not worth it to be run as primary)

All hail based Ward!

FTFY

I think we can still work as a primary. But yeah, we work even better as the elite melee Ally to shooty lists. Us with Tau or Eldar is just disgusting.