New DA player, I could use some tips

[Tomb]

Ok, so I have had Dark Angels for a little while, but I'm just getting around to assembling and painting them now. When the new edition was released, I heard that they were a great army, but I have recently heard that they now suck compared to the other armies that have come out since then. If this is true, does that mean they are impossible to use, or are there still competitive builds I can get out of them? I mostly have greenwing/deathwing stuff at the moment. Not much Ravenwing. If any DA Vets can give me some advice, I'd really appreciate it.

 

Thanks

[Brother dean]

It's all propaganda and lies...   Our one real weakness is anti air.  That said we do not have a "select unit X and autowin..."  either.  It takes skill to pull off some of our better tricks but we have always been a skill army.  You can look through the armylist forum and through several discussions in this forum and find the main theorys on how to use our new and improved codex...

[ValourousHeart]

Let me clarify about the Anti Air issue.  Every one of our Anti Air options (Flak Dev, RWBK, TML speeders, and Nephilim) all perform about equally... with a 44-55% chance of causing damage to an AV12 flyer. 

 

This % is much less against the dragon, due to the 5++ and It Will Not Die USR, both of which are justifiable background wise, but really make that particular unit an abuse of game mechanics.

 

The best choice we have is to take 5 typhoons which have a 55% chance of damaging an AV12 flyer, better if you are in range of a librarian.  Even without
the librarian this unit is over twice the cost of any other option in our book… so for fewer points you could have 2 Flak Dev squads or 2 Nephilim either of which will have an 88% chance if they combine fire power.  Obviously this takes up 2 slots, but is fewer points, and how often do SM max out their force org.

 

Now most anti air options from other dex fair just as effectively as ours do, Dev squads for example are the same across each marine dex except SW (5 shots instead of 4) and the SM combat tactics that grants Tank Hunter.  However some codex have a really stand out unit like the Storm Raven which has about a 150% chance to damage an AV12 flyer for about the same points as a 1 Nephilim.

 

So the biggest problem our codex has with Anti Air is the fact that there isn't a standout choice.  Not one choice dominates the field.  So people complain.

 

I would however like to point out at this time the complaints coming from the Chaos Space Marine forum. They have about as many anit air choices as we do, but one does standout.  That standout is the dragon, and it dominates the field.  And yet they still complain!

 

There is nothing wrong or lacking in our codex, but this is the internet, and so people will complain.

[Onisuzume]

About the Anti-Air issue: there's always the Mortis-pattern Dreadnought from Forgeworld.

[xnickbaranx]

My top performers when facing aircraft has been anything with a Twin-Linked Lascannon. I don't know the math hammer on it, but the re-roll has brought down multiple Storm Ravens for me. I've only faced dragons once though and it was a nightmare.

 

But yeah, the DA Codex hasn't reached obsolescence yet, we have multiple functional builds from what I can tell. I'm not the best player but I've won way more competitive games in 6th than I did in 5th.

[march10k]

My top performers when facing aircraft has been anything with a Twin-Linked Lascannon. I don't know the math hammer on it, but the re-roll has brought down multiple Storm Ravens for me. I've only faced dragons once though and it was a nightmare.

 

But yeah, the DA Codex hasn't reached obsolescence yet, we have multiple functional builds from what I can tell. I'm not the best player but I've won way more competitive games in 6th than I did in 5th.

 

You know how you get lots of twinlinked lascannons?  lascannon devastators with a prescience librarian, preferably carrying a PFG...

[facmanpob]

 

 

My top performers when facing aircraft has been anything with a Twin-Linked Lascannon. I don't know the math hammer on it, but the re-roll has brought down multiple Storm Ravens for me. I've only faced dragons once though and it was a nightmare.

 

But yeah, the DA Codex hasn't reached obsolescence yet, we have multiple functional builds from what I can tell. I'm not the best player but I've won way more competitive games in 6th than I did in 5th.

 

You know how you get lots of twinlinked lascannons?  lascannon devastators with a prescience librarian, preferably carrying a PFG...

 

 

....and an infravisor, so you can shoot at something big and tanky on the first turn without having to worry about Night Fighting.

[SvenONE]

I wouldn't say the internet is completely wrong. I think it's just that for a 6th edition codex that's less than a year old -- a lot of people realizing it's not as great as it was initially perceived, especially when there are older codices out there performing really well. But that's an argument for somewhere else.

 

The best advice I can say give about this codex is resist going tri-wing. It spreads your options too thin (jack of all trades - master of none kinda thing.). I actually started out the way you did with greenwing/deathwing. It's not bad and it's fun! It's hard to resist building a terminator list heavy greenwing list, especially because the Deathwing models out of that box are pretty solid. But don't split your efforts. I think you always want greenwing being supported by deathwing, not the other way around -- Deathwing are just too expensive. I usually run a full 10 man terminator squad maybe with Belial depending on how I'm feeing (2x CML, 2xAC). Then the rest of my list is filled out with tacs, devastators, and maybe a predator or two. Whatever you do, resist running the LSV -- it's just going to end up disappointing you and you're going to keep running it until it doesn't; stuck in a perpetual cycle of LSV doom!

 

As I said I started out that way, but I've moved for a more RW-centric list. Sammael is probably the best HQ in this book. He's the only HQ that you can legitimately do anything with. Azrael is too expensive just to stand around, Belial is ok, but really only with a TH/SS, Ezekiel is good but a regular librarian can do the same thing -- not to mention relying on pysker table rolls is no way to build a list. It's honestly no surprise that the Dark Angel box was a bike squad box. It really is the best aspect of the book IMO. The units of that wing just synergize well and Sammael leading them is kind of an icing on the cake. Black Knights are overall good -- the banner combined with regular attack squadrons is good, the Darkshroud is good (the best use of the DS I've found is to take 2 of them -- instead of 1 80 point unit sitting around just giving a bubble - you have 2 80 point units firing their heavy bolters, if you've got the budget you can even give one an assault cannon). The Dark Talon isn't THAT bad as everyone says it is, especially if you can manage to get it in banner range. There's lots of options. The problem is that it's a really $$$$$$ list if you didn't have bikes prior to this. Ebay the hell out of battleforces.

[Onisuzume]

 

 

My top performers when facing aircraft has been anything with a Twin-Linked Lascannon. I don't know the math hammer on it, but the re-roll has brought down multiple Storm Ravens for me. I've only faced dragons once though and it was a nightmare.

 

But yeah, the DA Codex hasn't reached obsolescence yet, we have multiple functional builds from what I can tell. I'm not the best player but I've won way more competitive games in 6th than I did in 5th.

 

You know how you get lots of twinlinked lascannons?  lascannon devastators with a prescience librarian, preferably carrying a PFG...

 

 

Or a TLLC Mortis and you're done with half the cost with a far better chance to-hit as well.

[Azrael Turnbull]

Old competative lists:

Deathwing.

 

Current competative lists:

Deathwing.

Ravenwing.

Dakka Pole (oh god!)

 

No codex has an auto win mode, but basing the core of your entire army around a Dakka Pole is one of the most obscene lists out there. the first time I ever used it, I tabled a 2'000 point Tyranid army in two turns. I have never tabled anyone on turn two before, haha. x)

 

So, short answer: like everyone we have strengths and we have weakeness. We are, however, a very competative codex and one to be envious of.

[xnickbaranx]

 

 

My top performers when facing aircraft has been anything with a Twin-Linked Lascannon. I don't know the math hammer on it, but the re-roll has brought down multiple Storm Ravens for me. I've only faced dragons once though and it was a nightmare.

 

But yeah, the DA Codex hasn't reached obsolescence yet, we have multiple functional builds from what I can tell. I'm not the best player but I've won way more competitive games in 6th than I did in 5th.

 

You know how you get lots of twinlinked lascannons?  lascannon devastators with a prescience librarian, preferably carrying a PFG...

 

....and an infravisor, so you can shoot at something big and tanky on the first turn without having to worry about Night Fighting.

 

This is why I'm a bottom tier tournament player - I just don't think in these terms. Haha. I've been so happy with my TLLC/ML Dread in its last 6 games that I wanted to add a Nephilim. I was going to go Dark Talon but the TWLC with Unrelenting Hunter seems right up my alley on paper. But I don't think in combos, I think more in "swooshhhhhhh.... pew! pew! pew! pew! Errrrrrrrrahhhhhhh.... CRASHHHHH!"

 

I take the "toy soldier" part a little more seriously than the "game" part I guess.

[Azrael Turnbull]

... I like you. :)

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Hey,

I can't add much that hasn't already been said but Brother Dean really seemed to nail it. Our codex seems to always be the finesse codex. What I mean by that is we are always more subtle and need lots of tactics/strategy to do well. While it can be hard as a new player once you actually "get it down" I find a more sense of satisfaction in my wins. If you use our Greenwing solo and do not use the Dakka Pole and win you've really got the Basics of Marines down to an art. No fancy units. Not auto includes like Sternguard just good tactics to help.......well and good luck with dice doesn't hurt. A quick note on our flyers. I find the points are expensive and as long as you don't expect them to show up and murder everything like the Helldrake they aren't bad units (plus they look awesome). So yeah read anything you can on Basic tactics for things like Tactical Marines, Devestator Squads and even Assault Squads I find do quite well. This will vary on your meta of course but if you can get those units down I find is when I've really started loving our codex. I thought about going to Wolves and C:SM (I'll be reporting to the cell soon) but I've found our codex does it all pretty well and I do like our Bikes and Deathwing enough not to really need anything else.

 

DoC

[Azrael Turnbull]

Tactics? Pah! Since I picked up the new Dark Angels codex, nothing's a challenge anymore, haha! x)

And I have played with a lot of codexes...

[march10k]

 Azrael is too expensive just to stand around, Belial is ok, but really only with a TH/SS

 

Azrael unlocks bikes and termies as troops, and then joins a devastator squad to keep the enemy from wanting to assault it (the paradigm of 40k being to shoot the assaulty things and assault the shooty things) AND providing it with a 4++.  That, and giving LD10 table-wide.  That fully justifies his points cost.  As for Belial...you must be joking!  TH/SS is so 5th edition.  He finally found his iron halo underneath his college algebra textbook, the sword of silence is disgustingly nasty, and his stormbolter has 5+ precision shot.  The main reason for the TH/SS was the SS, which is no longer as badly needed (the difference between 4++ and 3++ is a lot less than the difference between 5++ and 3++!), and since both the sword of silence and belial's shooting are dramatically improved this time around, sb/SoS is the new TH/SS!

 

 

 

My top performers when facing aircraft has been anything with a Twin-Linked Lascannon. I don't know the math hammer on it, but the re-roll has brought down multiple Storm Ravens for me. I've only faced dragons once though and it was a nightmare.

 

But yeah, the DA Codex hasn't reached obsolescence yet, we have multiple functional builds from what I can tell. I'm not the best player but I've won way more competitive games in 6th than I did in 5th.

 

You know how you get lots of twinlinked lascannons?  lascannon devastators with a prescience librarian, preferably carrying a PFG...

 

Or a TLLC Mortis and you're done with half the cost with a far better chance to-hit as well.

 

 

Actually, a TLLC mortis provides half as many godhammers for half as many points...no advantage there!  The disadvantage is that one lucky shot kills two godhammers...whereas the lascannon devs come with six ablative wounds.

 

Old competative lists:

Deathwing.

 

Current competative lists:

Deathwing.

Ravenwing.

Dakka Pole (oh god!)

 

+1

[Onisuzume]

Actually, a TLLC mortis provides half as many godhammers for half as many points...no advantage there! The disadvantage is that one lucky shot kills two godhammers...whereas the lascannon devs come with six ablative wounds.

While having the bonus of re-rolling the to-hit at full BS agaisnt flyers (Interceptor+Skyfire).

Last time I checked, Lascannon Devs don't get that, meaning it is a far greater threat against flyers.

[march10k]

 

Actually, a TLLC mortis provides half as many godhammers for half as many points...no advantage there! The disadvantage is that one lucky shot kills two godhammers...whereas the lascannon devs come with six ablative wounds.

While having the bonus of re-rolling the to-hit at full BS agaisnt flyers (Interceptor+Skyfire).

Last time I checked, Lascannon Devs don't get that, meaning it is a far greater threat against flyers.

...and the last time I checked, the godhammer mortis wasn't in the codex.  I see all sorts of cool stuff on FW that's good against fliers...why stop at the TLLC mortis?  Just imagine what a thunderhawk (or a thunderbolt) would do against a flier...

[Retaliation]

Well for one thing the Mortis rules are currently free. It's also a bit easier to get gaming groups that aren't sold on forgeworld to let you use one. After all it's still nothing more than a dreadnought with a fancy loadout!

 

Then you have people who don't like fliers, or don't like playing chicken with their opponents fliers. The second is kind of a lesser concern since DA have some pretty good reserves modifiers.

 

Most importantly though, its cheap for the customization you can do with it. Buying just the ven dread box and the FW lascannon, I can have one arm as a LC/PC/AC and the other as a powerfist/LC.

[march10k]

A fancy loadout and the combination of interceptor AND skyfire that make it 5-6 times better at killing fliers than anything that is actually in the codex without giving up any capability against ground targets, and all for a points cost that is far too low to account for it having TWO godhammers and both rules.  The MMAB has nothing on the godhammer dread in terms of "points-efficiency"

[Onisuzume]

 

 

 

 

Actually, a TLLC mortis provides half as many godhammers for half as many points...no advantage there! The disadvantage is that one lucky shot kills two godhammers...whereas the lascannon devs come with six ablative wounds.

While having the bonus of re-rolling the to-hit at full BS agaisnt flyers (Interceptor+Skyfire).

Last time I checked, Lascannon Devs don't get that, meaning it is a far greater threat against flyers.

 

 

...and the last time I checked, the godhammer mortis wasn't in the codex.  I see all sorts of cool stuff on FW that's good against fliers...why stop at the TLLC mortis?  Just imagine what a thunderhawk (or a thunderbolt) would do against a flier...

 

 

Dunno about the thunderbolt, but the thunderhawk is a super-heavy and thus only available at 2k+ points. And the Mortis has the approved for 40k stamp, so that shouldn't be an issue.

[HsojVvad]

Rules wise, play wise I suck so sorry, can't give advice. I play DA because I love them.

(Not in a sense I want to marry one, :P) When 5th edition came out, I played with 4th

edition DA. I played a friendly tourny and they all told me to use the SM 5th codex. I said,

no, it's ok, I want to play DA. I got totalled. (probably because it was my first game and

I suck too) BUT I had fun. 

 

So to the OP, if you want or need to win, then DA is not for you. I believe, most people play

DA because they love them. They love the look. They love the fluff. They love the feel.

(if that makes any sense.) So if you don't like the look/fluff, then I believe you will not like

playing DA. 

 

I don't know, there is something different about DA. People don't play DA to win. They play

them to have fun and winning is more sweat with them. One of the Prides of paying DA is

we are in most cases, Play for the love, not Play for needing to win with plastic toy soldiers

if that makes any sense as well. 

[Tomb]

Thank you all for the great input! After reading everything, I do have another question. Can the Mortis Dread be upgraded to Venerable for the increased BS?

[Onisuzume]

Thank you all for the great input! After reading everything, I do have another question. Can the Mortis Dread be upgraded to Venerable for the increased BS?

Nope!

Which is a bit of a downside, unfortunately.

It can't get Deathwing Vehicle either.

Although I guess that balances things a bit.

[Interrogator Stobz]

It can sit next to a Techmarine with a PFG though, or even use a Contemptor for better BS, AV and extra CML too. That unit really helps to fill the AA gap in out internal dex rules.

[Piousservant]

As for Belial...you must be joking! TH/SS is so 5th edition. He finally found his iron halo underneath his college algebra textbook, the sword of silence is disgustingly nasty, and his stormbolter has 5+ precision shot. The main reason for the TH/SS was the SS, which is no longer as badly needed (the difference between 4++ and 3++ is a lot less than the difference between 5++ and 3++!), and since both the sword of silence and belial's shooting are dramatically improved this time around, sb/SoS is the new TH/SS!

 

 

Hmmm, maybe it’s just the meta where I play but I’m starting to question this myself. I mean, I used SoS/SB in the old dex so picking the optimal option has never been a real concern, but I’ve not had much success with Belial with his new rules at all and I’m tempted to make a TH/SS model for occasional use. Maybe I’m making the mistake of playing to his warlord trait when I shouldn’t, but my experience has had him bouncing off other marine HQs (since most seem to have termi armour or artificer armour), Fleshbane is nice but the AP3 has been a bigger issue for me anyway. Plus I can see that situation only getting worse looking at the relics the new Marine dex has...

 

Also personally the improved precision shot is kind of random and I’ve not had it achieve anything (MEQs mostly again is why) either. I get that he isn't really a powerhouse HQ, but am I just using him wrong or what?