New DA player, I could use some tips

[march10k]

 

 

 

Actually, a TLLC mortis provides half as many godhammers for half as many points...no advantage there! The disadvantage is that one lucky shot kills two godhammers...whereas the lascannon devs come with six ablative wounds.

While having the bonus of re-rolling the to-hit at full BS agaisnt flyers (Interceptor+Skyfire).

Last time I checked, Lascannon Devs don't get that, meaning it is a far greater threat against flyers.

 

...and the last time I checked, the godhammer mortis wasn't in the codex.  I see all sorts of cool stuff on FW that's good against fliers...why stop at the TLLC mortis?  Just imagine what a thunderhawk (or a thunderbolt) would do against a flier...

 

Dunno about the thunderbolt, but the thunderhawk is a super-heavy and thus only available at 2k+ points. And the Mortis has the approved for 40k stamp, so that shouldn't be an issue.

 

Thunderbolt is just a flier, no super-heavy status there..."only available at 2k+" points is a petty distinction to make when you're arguing for allowing FW items...that's like saying you're for gay marriage but against polygamy.  Either "anything goes," or it doesn't.  OTOH, the "approved for 40k" stamp will sway a lot of people.  I'd allow it...and immediately point my lascannon devs at it, in spite of the fact that I'm not fielding fliers.  Take out a land raider's worth of firepower by defeating AV12?  Sounds yummy!

 

It can sit next to a Techmarine with a PFG though, or even use a Contemptor for better BS, AV and extra CML too. That unit really helps to fill the AA gap in out internal dex rules.

 

As noted above, the "AA gap" in our codex is no worse than most. 

[march10k]

 

As for Belial...you must be joking! TH/SS is so 5th edition. He finally found his iron halo underneath his college algebra textbook, the sword of silence is disgustingly nasty, and his stormbolter has 5+ precision shot. The main reason for the TH/SS was the SS, which is no longer as badly needed (the difference between 4++ and 3++ is a lot less than the difference between 5++ and 3++!), and since both the sword of silence and belial's shooting are dramatically improved this time around, sb/SoS is the new TH/SS!

 

 

Hmmm, maybe it’s just the meta where I play but I’m starting to question this myself. I mean, I used SoS/SB in the old dex so picking the optimal option has never been a real concern, but I’ve not had much success with Belial with his new rules at all and I’m tempted to make a TH/SS model for occasional use. Maybe I’m making the mistake of playing to his warlord trait when I shouldn’t, but my experience has had him bouncing off other marine HQs (since most seem to have termi armour or artificer armour), Fleshbane is nice but the AP3 has been a bigger issue for me anyway. Plus I can see that situation only getting worse looking at the relics the new Marine dex has...

 

Also personally the improved precision shot is kind of random and I’ve not had it achieve anything (MEQs mostly again is why) either. I get that he isn't really a powerhouse HQ, but am I just using him wrong or what?

If you want your warlord to PWN other warlords, then you want Sammael, not Belial.  Obviously, if you're facing 2+ armor saves, you don't go charging in with an AP3 weapon.  What I like to do is put Belial in a squad whose sergeant has TH/SS, so that I have the option to answer/issue challenges with either the TH or the SoS.  Of course there are niche targets (high T, no better than 3+ armor) that Belial seems made to obliterate, but he's really not there to knock down 150+ point single models.  The points value of unlocking terminator troops and scatter-free deepstrike being what they are, plus the telehomer (he's the only non-bike with one!), if he were a melee monster on top of all that, he'd have to cost closer to 250 points.  As it is, with all of the utility that he provides, I'm happy that he's able to take care of himself (unlike the last version) in melee. 

 

TH/SS isn't really going to make him a melee monster, either.  Depending on the enemy, he may well kill less, not more, with that loadout, since he'd give up shooting.  And, at I5, WS6, and wounding on 2+, he's generally going to remove 2-3 models per round of melee before they get to swing, potentially keeping his squad mates alive.  The improved killiness is going to kill almost zero additional models, since the same rolls that kill an enemy with the thunderhammer are going to kill any enemy lacking a 2+ save anyway, and it's balanced against the BS5 5+ precision stormbolter shooting that you give up (the first time you shoot at an IG command squad, you'll be sold.  "um...I'd like to remove...the astropath," But, really, even against MEQs, it's scary to be able to pick out a special/heavy weapon to have a 1/3 chance of dying).  The SS will improve his survival against AP2 weapons, but you shouldn't be exposing him to those in the first place.   What really sells the SoS option to me, though, is the ability to remove 2 (3 on the charge) enemy models before they swing back, reducing the number of armor saves his squad will have to make.  Giving up I5 is never something I like to do, although I understood the need when he only had a 5+ invul.

[Piousservant]

 

Dunno about the thunderbolt, but the thunderhawk is a super-heavy and thus only available at 2k+ points. And the Mortis has the approved for 40k stamp, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Thunderbolt is just a flier, no super-heavy status there..."only available at 2k+" points is a petty distinction to make when you're arguing for allowing FW items...that's like saying you're for gay marriage but against polygamy. Either "anything goes," or it doesn't. OTOH, the "approved for 40k" stamp will sway a lot of people. I'd allow it...and immediately point my lascannon devs at it, in spite of the fact that I'm not fielding fliers. Take out a land raider's worth of firepower by defeating AV12? Sounds yummy!

Umm, wow I'm not going to touch on how wrong-headed your RL comparison is, as that won't end well. But there's a big (and I'd have thought obvious) distinction between a FW unit designed for normal 40k and a super heavy like the T-Hawk. Incidentally IIRC the Contemptor is Front AV 13 and has a 5++, so they aren't that easy to kill.

[Interrogator Stobz]

@ P:  You probably aren't using him wrong, with only AP3 as you say he really struggles against other CC HQs. Maybe he needs a DW champion to take his challenges as DW Sgts got the nerf to Pwr-Swds only, I don't like all those points being non-scoring though so unless I'm playing against and bullying meat sacks or MEQ I'd use the TH/SS too. Sammael is a better choice vs Warlords as March says but S4 is limiting in other ways (it is also contrary to their respective traits, way to go Vetock).

 

@ March: But still there nonetheless.

[march10k]

Dunno about the thunderbolt, but the thunderhawk is a super-heavy and thus only available at 2k+ points. And the Mortis has the approved for 40k stamp, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Thunderbolt is just a flier, no super-heavy status there..."only available at 2k+" points is a petty distinction to make when you're arguing for allowing FW items...that's like saying you're for gay marriage but against polygamy. Either "anything goes," or it doesn't. OTOH, the "approved for 40k" stamp will sway a lot of people. I'd allow it...and immediately point my lascannon devs at it, in spite of the fact that I'm not fielding fliers. Take out a land raider's worth of firepower by defeating AV12? Sounds yummy!

Umm, wow I'm not going to touch on how wrong-headed your RL comparison is, as that won't end well. But there's a big (and I'd have thought obvious) distinction between a FW unit designed for normal 40k and a super heavy like the T-Hawk. Incidentally IIRC the Contemptor is Front AV 13 and has a 5++, so they aren't that easy to kill.

Ah, you didn't take the bait

Anyway, yeah, the contemptor is hard to kill, but the FW dual-TLLC mortis, being the one with the "approved for 40k" stamp ("approved" by FW, but still...) on it is the one I was talking about. There's a big (and I would have thought obvious) distinction between lighting up a contemptor with four pseudo-godhammers, and doing so to a regular mortis, and the distinction is this: four BS4 TLLCs are needed against a contemptor (averaging one pen that beats the 5++, so "usually dead"), but represent ridiculous overkill (two pens and a glance) against a stock dreddy. I would definitely, definitely, give the dreddy the same treatment if it's a contemptor, only I'd be prepared to spend two turns taking it down, instead of assuming that the first round of shooting is excessive, but worthwhile.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

 

 

As for Belial...you must be joking! TH/SS is so 5th edition. He finally found his iron halo underneath his college algebra textbook, the sword of silence is disgustingly nasty, and his stormbolter has 5+ precision shot. The main reason for the TH/SS was the SS, which is no longer as badly needed (the difference between 4++ and 3++ is a lot less than the difference between 5++ and 3++!), and since both the sword of silence and belial's shooting are dramatically improved this time around, sb/SoS is the new TH/SS!

 

Hmmm, maybe it’s just the meta where I play but I’m starting to question this myself. I mean, I used SoS/SB in the old dex so picking the optimal option has never been a real concern, but I’ve not had much success with Belial with his new rules at all and I’m tempted to make a TH/SS model for occasional use. Maybe I’m making the mistake of playing to his warlord trait when I shouldn’t, but my experience has had him bouncing off other marine HQs (since most seem to have termi armour or artificer armour), Fleshbane is nice but the AP3 has been a bigger issue for me anyway. Plus I can see that situation only getting worse looking at the relics the new Marine dex has...

 

Also personally the improved precision shot is kind of random and I’ve not had it achieve anything (MEQs mostly again is why) either. I get that he isn't really a powerhouse HQ, but am I just using him wrong or what?

If you want your warlord to PWN other warlords, then you want Sammael, not Belial.  Obviously, if you're facing 2+ armor saves, you don't go charging in with an AP3 weapon.  What I like to do is put Belial in a squad whose sergeant has TH/SS, so that I have the option to answer/issue challenges with either the TH or the SoS.

Except that thanks to GW, the termie sarge can't take TH/SS. And as far as I know (haven't got the Codex at hand), no other sergeant can either.

[march10k]

Except that thanks to GW, the termie sarge can't take TH/SS. And as far as I know (haven't got the Codex at hand), no other sergeant can either.

...of which unfortunate fact Stobz reminded me six hours before you

[Primacy]

From what I've seen about 6th Ed., the Unforgiven really lack a viable Flyer. The Nephilim is too expensive and not as efficient as its counter parts in other armies. Similar situation with the Dark Talon. And, the Standard of Devastation (aka "Dakka Pole") in combination with a blob of Guard played as allies underneath Azrael's 4++ is an unholy mix. 

[Brother dean]

Wha? How are you playing that because the "Dakka pole" only affects Bolters. Last I looked, Guard are armed with Lasguns...

[xnickbaranx]

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing about his Guard/Dakka pole reference.

 

I'm really wondering if people are misjudging the Nephilim. I was talking to a friend who loves his - says he goes with the Str 6 gun (forget what its called) and swoops in and takes out a squad every game. I was thinking of going TLLC and he thought it was a viable option.

 

Yes, our planes aren't Storm Ravens, Vendettas, or those Necron ones, but if its flying around distracting players from my other stuff, that's a win, and if they ignore it and its a pain in the ass for people that's a win too. I can't write it off based on direct comparisons taken out of context of the rest of the army. I need to play it for myself.

[march10k]

From what I've seen about 6th Ed., the Unforgiven really lack a viable Flyer. The Nephilim is too expensive and not as efficient as its counter parts in other armies. Similar situation with the Dark Talon. And, the Standard of Devastation (aka "Dakka Pole") in combination with a blob of Guard played as allies underneath Azrael's 4++ is an unholy mix. 

 

~shigh~  The whineseer rot is spreading into B&C.  Why is it that a flier like the Storm Raven or Vendetta is "overpowered" if another army has it, and "viable" if we have it?  And anything that falls short of "you're an idiot if you don't field this" is too expensive, not efficient, and everyone else has something better that's not only cheaper, it also irons your underpants for you?

 

DA don't lack a "viable flier."  Perhaps they lack the ability to field a viable "air cav" list with nothing but gunships and flying transports.  If you don't like the fact that our fliers aren't no-brainer overpowered choices, then don't use them.  It's for the best anyway, since the points that the enemy spends on anti-air paranoia will have gone to waste! 

[Primacy]

Wha? How are you playing that because the "Dakka pole" only affects Bolters. Last I looked, Guard are armed with Lasguns...

I never said I was playing with it. Only what I've heard. That makes sense, however, if that is the rule.

[InstantKarma]

Wha? How are you playing that because the "Dakka pole" only affects Bolters. Last I looked, Guard are armed with Lasguns...

I never said I was playing with it. Only what I've heard. That makes sense, however, if that is the rule.

To chime in, I thought the 'Dakka Pole' only effects units from C:DAs anyways. Even if you had IG with bolters (I wanna say Storm Troops can take them?) it shouldn't work with them, and at that point they are sub-par SMs, anways.

As a potential new recruit to the DAs (I have two box sets worth of Dark Vengence DAs; my friend took the Chaos models) I think I have a good foundation to build on. I've seen posts that say tri-wing isn't really workable unless you are playing a +2k points game. Seems model count wise easiest list to craft would be a GW w/ DW support list. Any ideas from the Inner Circle?

[march10k]

Greenwing with Ravenwing support?  I would definitely take the dakkapole.  Both wings benefit.  I would take a lascannon devastator squad with a librarian with power field generator attached and choose the prescience power.  That gives you four twinlinked lascannons with six meat shields and a 3+/4++ save for ~315 points, including the libby.  For ravenwing?  Honestly, just take knights.  They're stupid awesome, and unless you're fielding more than two bike squads, it doesn't pay to make regular bikes scoring, so you might as well take the upgraded ones!

[InstantKarma]

Greenwing with Ravenwing support?  I would definitely take the dakkapole.  Both wings benefit.  I would take a lascannon devastator squad with a librarian with power field generator attached and choose the prescience power.  That gives you four twinlinked lascannons with six meat shields and a 3+/4++ save for ~315 points, including the libby.  For ravenwing?  Honestly, just take knights.  They're stupid awesome, and unless you're fielding more than two bike squads, it doesn't pay to make regular bikes scoring, so you might as well take the upgraded ones!

 

I guess my question would be what to then do with my 2 squads of DW (regular w/ an assault cannon with both)?  Also considering DV boxes only gave me enough to have 1 RW squad, while I can see that Dakka Pole being disgusting (also read the posts about sticking it in the LRC which seems to scream cheese) I just wonder what else to do.  I guess just make multiple lists :-P  I wanna try to use all the models if I can.

[captain sox]

you want Air Cavalry, look at ye olde Ravenwing Support Squads... Anti infantry, 3 or 4 or 5 Tornado with 2 Heavy Bolters (18, 24,30) shots respectively. Anti medium armour M/C or Hordes (and with some luck, fliers) 3 or 4 or 5 Typhoons (6, 8 or 10) Krak Missiles) or you can go nuts with 3, 4 or 5 dual Multi Melta or Melta HB Combo for some fun. Sure it's a costly unit (s) but it will put out the hurt. (actually 3 Dual HB Speeders is the same cost as NJF) and can put out twice the firepower (although weaker strength shots)

 

Our codex is has tricks others don't have. You have to put your faith in your ability to read and explore the options, not just cut and paste from the webs

[[TA]Typher]

 

As for Belial...you must be joking! TH/SS is so 5th edition. He finally found his iron halo underneath his college algebra textbook, the sword of silence is disgustingly nasty, and his stormbolter has 5+ precision shot. The main reason for the TH/SS was the SS, which is no longer as badly needed (the difference between 4++ and 3++ is a lot less than the difference between 5++ and 3++!), and since both the sword of silence and belial's shooting are dramatically improved this time around, sb/SoS is the new TH/SS!

 

 

Hmmm, maybe it’s just the meta where I play but I’m starting to question this myself. I mean, I used SoS/SB in the old dex so picking the optimal option has never been a real concern, but I’ve not had much success with Belial with his new rules at all and I’m tempted to make a TH/SS model for occasional use. Maybe I’m making the mistake of playing to his warlord trait when I shouldn’t, but my experience has had him bouncing off other marine HQs (since most seem to have termi armour or artificer armour), Fleshbane is nice but the AP3 has been a bigger issue for me anyway. Plus I can see that situation only getting worse looking at the relics the new Marine dex has...

 

Also personally the improved precision shot is kind of random and I’ve not had it achieve anything (MEQs mostly again is why) either. I get that he isn't really a powerhouse HQ, but am I just using him wrong or what?

If you want your warlord to PWN other warlords, then you want Sammael, not Belial.  Obviously, if you're facing 2+ armor saves, you don't go charging in with an AP3 weapon.  What I like to do is put Belial in a squad whose sergeant has TH/SS, so that I have the option to answer/issue challenges with either the TH or the SoS.  Of course there are niche targets (high T, no better than 3+ armor) that Belial seems made to obliterate, but he's really not there to knock down 150+ point single models.  The points value of unlocking terminator troops and scatter-free deepstrike being what they are, plus the telehomer (he's the only non-bike with one!), if he were a melee monster on top of all that, he'd have to cost closer to 250 points.  As it is, with all of the utility that he provides, I'm happy that he's able to take care of himself (unlike the last version) in melee. 

 

TH/SS isn't really going to make him a melee monster, either.  Depending on the enemy, he may well kill less, not more, with that loadout, since he'd give up shooting.  And, at I5, WS6, and wounding on 2+, he's generally going to remove 2-3 models per round of melee before they get to swing, potentially keeping his squad mates alive.  The improved killiness is going to kill almost zero additional models, since the same rolls that kill an enemy with the thunderhammer are going to kill any enemy lacking a 2+ save anyway, and it's balanced against the BS5 5+ precision stormbolter shooting that you give up (the first time you shoot at an IG command squad, you'll be sold.  "um...I'd like to remove...the astropath," But, really, even against MEQs, it's scary to be able to pick out a special/heavy weapon to have a 1/3 chance of dying).  The SS will improve his survival against AP2 weapons, but you shouldn't be exposing him to those in the first place.   What really sells the SoS option to me, though, is the ability to remove 2 (3 on the charge) enemy models before they swing back, reducing the number of armor saves his squad will have to make.  Giving up I5 is never something I like to do, although I understood the need when he only had a 5+ invul.

 

 

Do you run Belial this way even in a pure (or almost pur) DW list?

[Eternal Warrior]

All of this is very informative. I remember since we have had our own codex it has always been a step behind our core Astartes brethren. And as someone who lives power armored marines the thought of the dakka pole makes me smile. Thank you all for the inspiration.

[march10k]

 

 

 

Do you run Belial this way even in a pure (or almost pur) DW list?

 

Yes.  SoS is the only Belial I run in 6th.

 

 

I guess my question would be what to then do with my 2 squads of DW (regular w/ an assault cannon with both)?  Also considering DV boxes only gave me enough to have 1 RW squad, while I can see that Dakka Pole being disgusting (also read the posts about sticking it in the LRC which seems to scream cheese) I just wonder what else to do.  I guess just make multiple lists :-P  I wanna try to use all the models if I can.

Whoops.  My bad,  You were asking about greenwing with Deathwing support, not Ravenwing support.

 

Well, I would make a dakkapole list as my base.  You have ten shooty termies, including two with assault cannons?  Hmm.... Well, they can do one of two things, or both.  One thing is to deepstrike them where the enemy absolutely has to do something about them.  This is better if you make them one squad of ten, it'll require major effort on his part to get rid of them.  But this works better if you give them Belial so they can deepstrike without scattering, that makes them a ton more dangerous.  The other thing is for them to join the gunline.  Either they go on the flanks to extend the line (since they can't benefit from the dakkapole anyway) or they go in the middle (in front of the command squad) as counter-assault.  Here, five per squad is fine, and you don't need Belial...but you also are doing a lot less to keep the enemy from assaulting your lines.  I would go with the first option...ten TEQs dropping on top of something he has to defend.  He'll be too busy to come across the table and eat your gunline.

[[TA]Typher]

Yes.  SoS is the only Belial I run in 6th. 

Hmm you and I seem to play DW a little different. I'd love to see a batrep from you. New ideas are always good.

[march10k]

Perhaps I can manage one next time I get a game in.  It may help to know that I run Belial with a melee termie squad next to a squad of knights...?  Every possible reason for taking the TH/SS option is covered by the knights.

[[TA]Typher]

Perhaps I can manage one next time I get a game in. It may help to know that I run Belial with a melee termie squad next to a squad of knights...? Every possible reason for taking the TH/SS option is covered by the knights.

I usually run him in a DWAing term unit, perferably with two heavy flamers. The TH/SS is more for tanking wounds. I place him in front, look outsir all my normal saves and roll for all ap2 shots that aren't enough to double him out. This way he saves terms and helps me retain my model count. Of course if they have no ap2 guns i usually tank the normal saves too, again saving models.

 

The SoS is ok, but it's only ap3. The improved save for the SS and the drastically increased chance to pen and destroy a vehicle with the TH (not to mention insta-gibbing T4 hqs) it too good to pass up. The precision shot on 5+ isn't that great seeing how it's just a SB. If his SB had shred or some other helpful rule i might reconsider. The chance of killing anyone tougher that a guardsman isn't that great. I guess what I'm saying is it can't be relied on, as opposed to a TH, which can.

 

In a challenge the SoS is situational. Against higher Initiative models or 2+ armor opponents the SoS is subpar as they will attack first or you have a low chance to defeat thier armor. Against attacks strength 7 or lower and/or non-ap2 attacks the TH is statistically better, as you have a dramaticlly good chance to survive. The only area i can see it excell would be attack that are Strength 8 or higher, ap2 attacks by opponent with 1 or 2 wounds left and only 3+ save. That way the SoS will strike first and kill them before they can try to insta-kill u. A powerfist marine sgt comes to mind, but in that event the powersword wielding sgt in the term squad can take the challenge.

 

I guess the SoS would excell if you engaged a unit like chaos chosen armed with power axes. Killing them before they laid into the terms. But over all those events are few compared to the positive aspects of the TH/SS. Tanking two shots that would killed two terms saves you 88 points alone and those are just the fails. If you count the 3s and 4s you roll tanking AP2 shots then that number goes up (of course a 5 or 6 would have been saved by the term).

 

Anyway I like learning new tactics and I think there are only a few of us pure DW guys here. I know that text doesn't relay tone, so I'll tell you that my intent isn't to argue of disagree woth you. In fact I love a good debate and learning new tactics. As it stands us DWers have a uphill battle each match, learning new tactics help midigate that.

 

What'du think? Do I have any valid points or am missing something?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

 

he SoS is ok, but it's only ap3. The improved save for the SS and the drastically increased chance to pen and destroy a vehicle with the TH (not to mention insta-gibbing T4 hqs) it too good to pass up. The precision shot on 5+ isn't that great seeing how it's just a SB. If his SB had shred or some other helpful rule i might reconsider. The chance of killing anyone tougher that a guardsman isn't that great. I guess what I'm saying is it can't be relied on, as opposed to a TH, which can. 

Only ap3... but 2+ save is just a small minority. How often do you see HQ's or other models with 2+ save? 3+ is still the majority out there. Also fleshbane of the sword lets the Iniative 5 do some damage instead of just hoping you don't get insta-killed or reduced to zero wounds until you swing the hammer.

I agree the chance of killing someone tougher than a guardsmen ins't that great, but it can kill guards special weapons, tau special weapons, ork special weapons, eldar and dark eldar special weapons. that's isn't too shabby for a "free" potshot.... specially considering against these opponents the TH is usually overkill in CC:

 

 

In a challenge the SoS is situational. Against higher Initiative models or 2+ armor opponents the SoS is subpar as they will attack first or you have a low chance to defeat thier armor. Against atacks strength 7 and/or lower or non-ap2 attacks the TH is statistically better, as you have a dramaticlly good chance to survive. The only area i can see it excell would be attack that are Strength 8 or higher, ap2 attacks by opponent with 1 or 2 wounds left and only 3+ save. That way the SoS will strike first and kill them before they can try to insta-kill u. A powerfist marine sgt comes to mind, but in that event the powersword wielding sgt in the term squad can take the challenge. 

I agree that in challenge the SoS is situational, but 9 times of of 10 you want belial doing damage to the squad and letting a character chump take the challenge, especially if it's something that can kill Belial. What wins combats is wounds resolution and it's a pity to lets Belial waste his attacks ona  HQ when he could be killing thte squad ... in case if it's Belial + squad against a HQ this still is true... a cahracter takes challenges, Belial wounds in 2+ and teh sqaud finishes.. if said HQ has 2+ save, There should be sme powerfists/TH from the squad able to finish the HQ.  I think we can't look at it i the vacuum. Belial will always have his buddies around and that's the sinergy that SB+SoS takes advantage of... anything too tough for Belial to chew on will be chewed By Belial's squad... In the meantime he can try to keep that squad alive by using his I5.

[[TA]Typher]

There are a few 2+ armor hqs and units. *coughtaucommandersriptidesbroadsidesterminatorsartificerarmorCough*

 

Doubling out nobs, centurians, hqs and such can really help you. Killing three nobs instead of killing only one makes a huge differance.

 

2+ armor and having Belial tank wounds will ensure you squad will survive. The SoS and SB combo doesn't give you any more attacks than the TH/SS so you have an equal chance to kill 3+ armor units and dramatically

Better chance to kill 2+ units and vehicles, plus don't forget about concussion. That can really help against monsterous creatures.

 

Couple this with the increased wound tanking ability and odds of success increase.

 

Remember model retention and the reduction of random chance should be a DW priority.

[Brother dean]

There are a few 2+ armor hqs and units. *coughtaucommandersriptidesbroadsidesterminatorsartificerarmorCough*

 

 

If you are in control of the situation you are not charging those units, you are charging the softer units to deny scoring.  

 

If you aren't in control of the situation then your opponent is and you are going to have a bad day....  (been there more times than I can count)