New DA player, I could use some tips

[InstantKarma]

 

 

 

 

Do you run Belial this way even in a pure (or almost pur) DW list?

 

Yes.  SoS is the only Belial I run in 6th.

 

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I guess my question would be what to then do with my 2 squads of DW (regular w/ an assault cannon with both)?  Also considering DV boxes only gave me enough to have 1 RW squad, while I can see that Dakka Pole being disgusting (also read the posts about sticking it in the LRC which seems to scream cheese) I just wonder what else to do.  I guess just make multiple lists :-P  I wanna try to use all the models if I can.

Whoops.  My bad,  You were asking about greenwing with Deathwing support, not Ravenwing support.

 

Well, I would make a dakkapole list as my base.  You have ten shooty termies, including two with assault cannons?  Hmm.... Well, they can do one of two things, or both.  One thing is to deepstrike them where the enemy absolutely has to do something about them.  This is better if you make them one squad of ten, it'll require major effort on his part to get rid of them.  But this works better if you give them Belial so they can deepstrike without scattering, that makes them a ton more dangerous.  The other thing is for them to join the gunline.  Either they go on the flanks to extend the line (since they can't benefit from the dakkapole anyway) or they go in the middle (in front of the command squad) as counter-assault.  Here, five per squad is fine, and you don't need Belial...but you also are doing a lot less to keep the enemy from assaulting your lines.  I would go with the first option...ten TEQs dropping on top of something he has to defend.  He'll be too busy to come across the table and eat your gunline.

 

 

Sounds great!  I do like that first tactic and I think it could work well with the 1 RW squad that I can build.  I could kit out either as a 5-6 man with 2 plasma guns, which would provide teleport homers as well as some more shots to support the Termies.  I'm also scouring Ebay for bits to replace the AssCs with CMLs.

 

I think between my two DV DAs I have almost 1500 pts actually (thought that might invovled overloading the HQs on wargear), just not too much flexibility or choice.

[march10k]

 

Perhaps I can manage one next time I get a game in. It may help to know that I run Belial with a melee termie squad next to a squad of knights...? Every possible reason for taking the TH/SS option is covered by the knights.

I usually run him in a DWAing term unit, perferably with two heavy flamers. The TH/SS is more for tanking wounds. I place him in front, look outsir all my normal saves and roll for all ap2 shots that aren't enough to double him out. This way he saves terms and helps me retain my model count. Of course if they have no ap2 guns i usually tank the normal saves too, again saving models.

 

The SoS is ok, but it's only ap3. The improved save for the SS and the drastically increased chance to pen and destroy a vehicle with the TH (not to mention insta-gibbing T4 hqs) it too good to pass up. The precision shot on 5+ isn't that great seeing how it's just a SB. If his SB had shred or some other helpful rule i might reconsider. The chance of killing anyone tougher that a guardsman isn't that great. I guess what I'm saying is it can't be relied on, as opposed to a TH, which can.

 

In a challenge the SoS is situational. Against higher Initiative models or 2+ armor opponents the SoS is subpar as they will attack first or you have a low chance to defeat thier armor. Against attacks strength 7 or lower and/or non-ap2 attacks the TH is statistically better, as you have a dramaticlly good chance to survive. The only area i can see it excell would be attack that are Strength 8 or higher, ap2 attacks by opponent with 1 or 2 wounds left and only 3+ save. That way the SoS will strike first and kill them before they can try to insta-kill u. A powerfist marine sgt comes to mind, but in that event the powersword wielding sgt in the term squad can take the challenge.

 

I guess the SoS would excell if you engaged a unit like chaos chosen armed with power axes. Killing them before they laid into the terms. But over all those events are few compared to the positive aspects of the TH/SS. Tanking two shots that would killed two terms saves you 88 points alone and those are just the fails. If you count the 3s and 4s you roll tanking AP2 shots then that number goes up (of course a 5 or 6 would have been saved by the term).

 

Anyway I like learning new tactics and I think there are only a few of us pure DW guys here. I know that text doesn't relay tone, so I'll tell you that my intent isn't to argue of disagree woth you. In fact I love a good debate and learning new tactics. As it stands us DWers have a uphill battle each match, learning new tactics help midigate that.

 

What'du think? Do I have any valid points or am missing something?

 

 

Overall, I think the difference is in how each of us uses him.  My Belail charges off the assault ramp of a crusader.  Hard to tank shooting when I'm not taking any!  The SoS is immeasurably more than merely "okay."  Sure, it's only AP3...but you're looking at it in isolation when I already told you that the next crusader over is full of knights...  True, they only get to smite once.  Thankfully, enemy warlords with 2+ saves only need killing about once a game.  And, incredibly, they don't even turn up every single game.  Absolutely anything you can bring up, except for 2+ save characters, the thundernators in Belial's squad can handle...and, to be perfectly honest, there isn't much business out there for thunderhammers.  You think Belial's thunderhammer is an antitank weapon?  His squad has a chainfist in it.  THAT is an antitank weapon.

 

The stormbolter...that's so not why I take the SoS...but it's a nice bonus.  Even marine players sweat when it's the heavy weapon marine in the targeted squad who has a 1/3 chance to die.  And there are armies out there without power armor, you know. 

 

"In a challenge, the SoS is situational."  Yes.  Situations exist where it's not ideal.  There are actually models out there with a 2+ save.  But lets not pretend that the stars have to align before the sword does the job.  It's more like they have to align for the bastard on the other end to have the chance to mudpit Belial in a challenge.  See, having a 2+ save isn't enough.  You also need an AP2 weapon to gain the advantage.  Imagine an enemy with artificer armor and a power sword, for example.  (Don't say "that's rare."  No kidding.  Any enemy character with a 2+ save is rare)  He's doubtless the enemy's warlord.  So he's probably I5.  Unless he's WS6, he wounds on a 4 to Belial's 3.  Otherwise, they're even.  He needs a 4 to wound.  Belial needs a 2.  They both save on 2+.  If by some miracle the enemy wins, he's still locked with Belial's squad, which includes two thundernators.  But since Belial's mounted in a Crusader next to a Crusaderload of knights, none of this will ever happen, the enemy warlord's chance of getting the charge against Belial is somewhere between "none" and "noner."  The knights charge, refuse the challenge (so the flail gimp goes to the rear), and smite the warlord.  No mess, no fuss.

 

I have the situations where a TH/SS is needed covered.  What I'm covering with the SoS (equally rare, but harder to find a solution for) is situations where you need to kill something that has AP2 weapons that strike at initiative.  With initiative 5 being relatively rare, Belial fits the bill. With a TH/SS, he is harder for an AP2 weapon to kill...but on offense, he's a thundernator with WS6.  I have plenty of thundernators...and I have knights, which are better.

 

I do like your idea of tanking shooting with Belial.  I see that he can eat a few plasma shots to spare his brothers or let mundane shooting bounce him around till he's down to his last wound (not that I'd let him fight in melee after that!!).  The idea has some value if you're DWAing him (though, personally, I'd just stick two thundernators up front to eat that shooting). 

 

But I'm not DWAing him.  He and his squad are in a shielded venerable crusader, letting them (usually) pick their fights...alongside an identical crusader with knights inside.  I have four options for taking down a target:  Belial alone, Belial and squad, Belial's squad, and the knights.  And with damned unkillable tanks with assault ramps, 95% of the time it's damned well up to me.

 

AP3 weapons that wound ANYTHING on 2+ and strike at I5 (and WS6) are unheard of.  Thunderhammers are a dime a dozen, and you can actually take a dozen of them, if you want.  Why not take both?  Have your cake and eat it, too.  I am!

 

 

/edit/

 

Now...if you gave me the option of Belial with a Daemonhammer....yum! 

[[TA]Typher]

Well, like I said March I'd love to see a batrep from you. You and I play a little different, which is ok. I've had success with my hammer and anvil method as you can see in some of my DW batreps, but I am always curious about new tactics.

 

With two LRC you must be short on either scoring units of don't have a DW command squad.

[march10k]

Naturally, I have no command squad!  I think they're about the coolest thing around, but I find them to be less effective than knights, and I can't afford more than one non-scoring squad, so knights it is!  My list has three scoring units, which isn't a lot, but it's no less than I had in 4th and 5th.  I find that I end the game with more scoring units using this list than I do when I drop the tanks to field six (five scoring) squads.  Denying enemy shooting on turns one and two, then limiting it by blocking LOS with the tanks has worked better for me than just taking more bodies to start with. 

 

Anyway, I'll see if I can get a game this weekend or next, and write it up for you.

[[TA]Typher]

Naturally, I have no command squad!  I think they're about the coolest thing around, but I find them to be less effective than knights, and I can't afford more than one non-scoring squad, so knights it is; My list has three scoring units, which isn't a lot, but it's no less than I had in 4th and 5th.  I find that I end the game with more scoring units using this list than I do when I drop the tanks to field six (five scoring) squads.  Denying enemy shooting on turns one and two, then limiting it by blocking LOS with the tanks has worked better for me than just taking more bodies to start with. 

 

Anyway, I'll see if I can get a game this weekend or next, and write it up for you.

I agree. footslogging your troops only ends badly. The last tourney I was at I watched a footslogging DW player come in dead last. I currently only have 1 LR and find it invaluable. I'm not sure about fielding 2 of them, but would love to see them in action.

 

Having three scoring units isn't a lot, but for a DW list that's normal. I usually prefer 1 ten man unit and two 5 man units, but I know 3 five man units is probably more common.