You. The "meta". Close combat. The IHs

[depthcharge12]

Well gents its that time again.

I hope you have all seen the new rules that the Iron Hands have been bestowed and how absolutely awesome, fluffy and non broken they are.

Now people have been flipping out about the whole -1S to shooting the hands thing is, and let me tell you it is not without reason. Also other legion rules to consider

• All those beautiful missle squads you've been stockpiling, yep, they dont insta-death Iron hand characters.
• Your fury of the legions? Less bite now that they are as strong as lasguns against the IHs
• That dusty gunline army you have that just sits in the backfield, well the hands can outflank ANY dedicated trasport into your backfield

So gentlymen here's what I proposes:

• go back to cc oriented units like veteran squads, jump packs, and bike squads. Here's why:

• Jump packs can lead your opponents force on a merry dance as the hands have limited running ability - so make use of that last turn objective grab and watch the hands trip up.
• Vet squads can take a raider and assault the bejeezus out of IH squads, the rule doesnt give any negative modifiers to cc attacks, so stack up on power weapons and furious charge!!
• Bike squads can be your friend. Strand slow moving footsloggers so they cant get to objectives. Bikes use Hammer of Wrath, and have that essential T5 which is great and weathers the fury of the legion in the same way the IHs do.

2. Close combat is the best way to defeat an Iron Hands opponent:

• special rule inviolable armor does not dumb down cc attacks, only ranged ones
• I you want to insta death a IH character, you will need to power fist or thunder hammer him if you are trying to do double strength insta kills, since missles wont cut it.
• If you lose combat (which, using a token force to prevent foot slogger movement isnt a bad idea) IHs might not be able to pursue you since they must take a leadership check to do sweeping advance - he might even have to use smaller LD because of taking losses idk

3. Iron encirclement thingy means lots of tanks on your flanks METUL BAWKSES!!! TEH FEWLS!

• be sure to beef up your tacs with cc weapons to counter charge any emerging armored infantry - shooting wont cut it with these guys
• get mobile heavy weapons as static ones will be target priority and mincemeat to outflankers
• dont leave enemy tanks half destroyed, you can expect lots of servo arms putting them back together
• meltas back baby, but be careful, armored ceramite adornes raiders like confederate flags on redneck trucks

Thats all I have for now, and I expect a lot of people to be swayed to the Iron hands cause. So...what do you guys think?

[Daemon2027]

At this point we only know the IH rules and not the other 3 legions, nor what changes there will be to the original 4. Who knows what they will be able to do.

[Vardus]

At this point we only know the IH rules and not the other 3 legions, nor what changes there will be to the original 4. Who knows what they will be able to do.

 

We have also seen the Night Lords rules and the Emperor's Children rules from the same video. From that I think we can infer that the Betrayal legions only update will be a Legion specific Right of War and new units.

[grand_master85]

Well, me and my mate at our local group had a whirl with the Iron Hands rules. Have to say, that -1 strength thing is quite annoying, but it seems rather fluffy and nice for the Hands, and better than a 6+ FNP save. I agree with the above poster though, CC is where to hurt them. Fortunately, my Emperor's Children were made for such a thing, and I managed to decimate his marines in combat.

 

The rule as well letting tanks regenrate is nice, but on anything less than AV 13 I wouldn't bother, as rhinos and the like will generally be blown up straight away. Rapiers are your friends here, I won't leave home without at least 4 now! I think against Iron Hands, speed is indeed your friend

Yeah I agree with the above poster; the original 4 Legions from Betrayal will not get an update to their Legion specific rules, they'll likely only get extra characters, units and Rites of Wars, and maybe some new wargear.

[Noserenda]

I Dunno, the World Eaters have absolutely awful Legion rules right now, I wouldnt be surprised if they got updated.

[grand_master85]

Tbh, I wasn't massively impressed that the Iron hands get that, and I get...Crusader. And I MUST make challenges. Hmm.

 

Still, could be worse...as you say, the world Eaters rules are shockingly bad. Even the Night Lords and Sons of Horus are better in combat! I just hope the Red Butchers and Devourers squads for World Eaters finally gives them a half decent CC unit

[Daemon2027]

Fair enough was just suggesting the books not even out yet, there may be other stuff to combat the IHs

[grand_master85]

I am very much looking forward to seeing what my favourite Legion-that-everybody-hates, the Word Bearers get. Erebus and Kor Phaeron are two of my favourite characters and can't wait to get these :D

[Daemon2027]

Yeah I cant wait to see what the Word Bearers get. Probably all they can do is move up the table while you chant.

[depthcharge12]

Yeah I'm beginning to sound like a chronic complainer, but ye gods man the world eater rules suck absolute wang. Especially in a shooty focussed 6th edition.

 

And our rampager squads are a joke both in model and rule set. yeah I want to pay more points for a squad with ap5 weapons, scout (cant assault first turn), and 6+ fnp. thanks

 

 

meanwhile SoH get extra attacks in cc because they are the chosen of khorne-errrrr wait no its because they are gangster thugs yo. I dont get any special rules till I win a combat.

 

 

I hope to God that we get better rules and units, and besides the SoH are also jacking our chainaxes and making NL glaive axes that strike at initative with ap3.

 

 

 

grrrr *twitches chainaxe trigger*

[grand_master85]

Hopefully you'll also get an awesome rites of war that will reward your awesomeness at CC :D

[depthcharge12]

Hopefully you'll also get an awesome rites of war that will reward your awesomeness at CC

Yes hopefully

I think that the old fleet rule really represents the WEs, you know the one where you can run and still assault? That makes a lot of sense and is fluffy.

That and/or a rule that allows you to bounce to 1 more assault if within range after winning a combat (the enemy still gets overwatch maybe? hopefully not because it could represent worrying about shooting their own guys) and it counts as a disordered charge because the world eaters are butchering everything in their path and dont bother to reform for another charge.

These two rules would make me a happy camper indeed.

I just don't know how they got the WE rules when the NLs and Iron Hands are amazing and fluffy

[Vardus]

Looking at both the World Eaters and Emperors Children legion rules, both look a little lacking when compared to the other legions, but I do think that they are both "fluffy".

The WE rules do represent a descent into uncontrolled blood letting as a battle progresses: Incarnate violence = start fight, win, "NEED MORE BLOOD"

Bloodlust = "NEED MORE BLOOD", with a chance that oops we lost, "NO, NEED MORE BLOOD, DIE"

The EC rules do represent a swift and prideful legion: Crusader = a fluid combat style

Martial Pride = "Look here we are so much better than you, I will beat you in single combat so there!" Look of disdain crosses face.

The EC RoW in Massacre further enforces this fluid combat style, although I must admit i don't know how the WE RoW will play out!

So all in fluffy, if not Uber I WIN rules.

Edit: stupid formatting

Edit2: Not saying anyone is after I WIN rules

[Kol Saresk]

So what you're saying is that Night Lords' ability to sneak up in the middle of that, load up every character with an AP3, S+1, Rending power weapons and the potential to get a +1 on Wounding can really come in handy, provided they're able to close the distance?

[depthcharge12]

So what you're saying is that Night Lords' ability to sneak up in the middle of that, load up every character with an AP3, S+1, Rending power weapons and the potential to get a +1 on Wounding can really come in handy, provided they're able to close the distance?

Yup, if they don't chicken out or wind up stabbing eachother

@Bob

It just seems lacking thats all.

Lets take a look at GK for a second (please no knee-jerk )

Castellen Crowe is a good example imho of solid rules. He has a great sword, but it confers a benefit to the enemy too.

Kaldor Draigo...well im sure you've heard of him and his rediculousness. Thats just cheesy and poor rules imho

Now back to the IH, their rules are absolutely amazing and fluffy without being overpowered. The Death Gaurd have great rules too, have unique weapons, and have 2 awesome characters that I'm suprised that not a whole lot of people play them.

So do the SoH rules. They are awesome and fluffy and the merciless fighters rule can be brutal.

But the world eaters? very underpowered and generally lacking in good rules. I feel that there should be a good balance with them against other HH armies. What the hell am I going to use ap 4 chainaxes and ap5 special weapons that cost as much as power weapons for? It would be nice to see a throwback to the old chainaxe rules where you couldn't take a save above a certain number...I think you could only take a 4+ save unless it was worse. Or use the examples I provided above.

Also, realistically, how many times will a basic squad see cc in a normal HH game? With really large units and fury of the legions it will be hard enough to get a unit to benefit from the existing rules just once.

Idk, maybe its just me. I just don't think the WE rules are up to par. I hope they get some updates and a better rite of war. I hope that the gods of FW made the Red butchers absolutely terrifying and not just a "oh thats a cool entry" unit

edit: my edjumication have goods grammer derp

[Kol Saresk]

It's possible that might happen. So far we've only seen an update for only one of the previous Legions. And that Legion got two new units(for a total of three unique units which currently outnumbers all other known Legion-specific units(if categorized by Legion; unless you count the Iron-Father as a special unit rather than an upgrade) where the other three are only getting one each. It is entirely possible that one of the previous Legions did get a rule update. I say possible because I have no guarantee or even an inkling if it will happen.

[Adra'Melek]

Sons of Horus got three haven't they? The two from Betrayal (terminators and drop pod) and the new unit. Being a bit pedantic regarding the drop pod as a unit rather than vehicle.

 

I don't think the WE rules will change. The Rite of War will hopefully be a good balancer for them though

[depthcharge12]

Sons of Horus got three haven't they? The two from Betrayal (terminators and drop pod) and the new unit. Being a bit pedantic regarding the drop pod as a unit rather than vehicle.

 

I don't think the WE rules will change. The Rite of War will hopefully be a good balancer for them though

 

I have a fever.

 

And the only cure is more close combat...

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I forgot about the Dreadclaw. But it isn't exactly Legion-specific anymore since the Night lords can use it as a Dedicated Transport in their Terror Tactics Rite of War.

 

EDIT: Or rather it will no longer be Legion-specific.

[depthcharge12]

Yeah, I forgot about the Dreadclaw. But it isn't exactly Legion-specific anymore since the Night lords can use it as a Dedicated Transport in their Terror Tactics Rite of War.

 

EDIT: Or rather it will no longer be Legion-specific.

 

Yeah, in betrayer, the WEs have dread claws as part of a student- err weapon exchange program :D

 

but what we didnt know was that they tooks our chainaxes those trixy hobbits!!!

[Adra'Melek]

Very true about the Dreadclaws and Night Lords. It'll be interesting to see if they're part of the World Eater Rite, given the bit in Betrayer. Turning some vehicles into Assualt vehicles would be interesting. Allows them into combat quicker, making their rules more likely to kick in. Given that they're not particularly better in CC compared with some others means it probably wouldn't be broken (would it?)

[Russ Brother 92]

I think that if these new Red Butchers have a suitable amount of CC-goodness (and imho 6+ FNP) such as having the ability to upgrade to some form of a shiny chainaxe which has rending and/or fleshbane would work - I'd expect them to be a relatively high cost unit but also be able to live up to the namesake of being butchers... and this is from a SW/IH player haha

[Vardus]

@depth

Sorry, my post doesn't make it clear that I agree with that sentiment. The WE, Angron and EC rules whilst fluffy are not as filling as the other Primarchs or legion rules from Betrayal, and the legion rules we have seen so far from Massacre seem full and rich.

Still they are all fluffy

[depthcharge12]

@depth

Sorry, my post doesn't make it clear that I agree with that sentiment. The WE, Angron and EC rules whilst fluffy are not as filling as the other Primarchs or legion rules from Betrayal, and the legion rules we have seen so far from Massacre seem full and rich.

Still they are all fluffy

Indubitably.

The Iron Hands and the Night Lords got their just deserts and finally some rules that accurately portray them. Hopefully it will sway more of the 40k unfaithful to our cause.....

VIVA LA FORGEWORLD!!!

[Legatus]

If the World Eaters don't tear apart everything in close combat then it's not that fluffy.