New Codex Whirlwinds

[aquamarine]

So, a drop of 20 points on Whirlwinds whereas before they were overpriced. Still an indirect fire, ignores cover weapon. So far, so good...

 

However I tested one last night and it did very little. It was firing at a big mob of Ork Boys [with T4, 4+ and 3+ cover (with going to ground)] but killed only 3 all game (he was lucky to get a +1 cover save objective mind you).

 

I was thinking of taking 2 in a list but am not so sure now. Maybe it would do better against T3 4+ models like Tau and Eldar in cover?

 

Or is a Vindicator still a better purchase than 2 Whirlwinds for almost the same points...?

 

Anyone else tested them out or have any thoughts?

[minigun762]

I want to take one, I think it would look nice alongside a Hunter and Stalker.

 

That said, I'm not sure what it offera that can't be better found in a TFC, especially now that it has barrage

[Seahawk]

Clearly you didn't use the Incendiary rounds, resulting in a disappointing outcome. May as well have said you left chocolate in a hot car all day and were disappointed when it melted! :lol:

 

Whirlwinds were great before, and now even more so. Large blasts tend to hit more than small blasts, despite the Thunderfire having four of them. They're also 35 points cheaper than a Thunderfire and better armor (kinda). They don't come with Stealth though (TF does by virtue of bolstered defenses). 

[Lucien Eilam]

Off the top of my head, Incendiary is less than 0.03 wounds per hit better than Vengeance in the situation he describes, so it probably wouldn't make any difference which he used. That's just a bad target - 'Ard Boyz, I'm guessing from the 4+ save, behind a barricade or something.

 

Causing 3 wounds in a whole game of shooting is still remarkably unlucky though. How many were you hitting with each shot? I'd give it another chance.

[aquamarine]

Clearly you didn't use the Incendiary rounds, resulting in a disappointing outcome. May as well have said you left chocolate in a hot car all day and were disappointed when it melted!

Whirlwinds were great before, and now even more so. Large blasts tend to hit more than small blasts, despite the Thunderfire having four of them. They're also 35 points cheaper than a Thunderfire and better armor (kinda). They don't come with Stealth though (TF does by virtue of bolstered defenses).

No, I did use the incendiary rounds - I'm not that stupid!

T4, 4+ trumped my Str4 Ap5 ignores cover large blasts. I would hit 8 or 9, wound half, and 1 or 2 would then fail saves. They were ard boys in 5+ cover terrain, they went to ground and also had a +1 boost to cover from an objective.

I was dreadfully unlucky for a lot of the game and wondered if Whirlwinds should usually perform better before buying a second. But your posts have reassured me. Will field a couple and try them again!

[Axagoras]

If you were playing vs orks why shoot ard boys who were hiding in cover, im sure there was something else in his army that you could of done more damage to.

[WarriorFish]

You were unlucky not to frag those orks. S5 AP4 barrage last blast is more than enough to shred even medium infantry with impunity and for the cost you're laughing all the way to the table. The main drawback is the number of units in the Heavy Support slot for competition and that the WW is a light vehicle but these are easy enough to manage in your list.

 

It can mop up the gribbly types leaving the rest of your force to focus on more important things which is a good deal for the cost I reckon. I think your main problem was using the incendiary rounds in this situation.

[Seahawk]

Codex: Space Marines generally has issues dealing with hordes, and zero issues dealing with armor. I'd try out the whirlwind again, perhaps focusing on easier targets. If the 'ard Boyz are camping an objective, let them and deny him every other objective while grabbing one or two of your own. Whirlwinds blast units they ignore the saves on, other parts of the army wreck whatever vehicles he might bring. That's the 1-2 punch-win.

[Gideon999]

Also bear in mind that when firing a barrage weapon the blast is considered as coming from the hole, so if hes in area terrain that wont help, but if he is camped out behind an aegis or something you can use the full blast and because it lands behind the aegis, he gets no cover save.

 

I have had mixed results with them over the years.   Sometimes the are amazing, sometimes they have a game like you had.   Rolling good scatter is key and using them on the right targets is also key. 

 

'Ard boyz in 3+ cover would be hard to kill with anything really, especially if there are a lot of them.   Normal boyz (with the 6+ t-shirt save) would have been shredded pretty handily if you got some good hits on them.  

 

Also - dont discount the pinning.   I once pinned a Tau commander and his crisis suit bodyguard for 2 turns with a whirlwind.   Probably won me the game.

[aquamarine]

Also bear in mind that when firing a barrage weapon the blast is considered as coming from the hole, so if hes in area terrain that wont help, but if he is camped out behind an aegis or something you can use the full blast and because it lands behind the aegis, he gets no cover save.

I had forgotten that. See, I'm a real whirlwind novice. And getting at things hiding behind Aegis was one of my main reasons for using them!

Excellent: Str 5 ap 4 no cover save from barrage. Bye bye Tau hiding behind your castle wall. Am more than convinced that this was my fault not the whirlwind's which is what I was hoping. Better target selection required.

I am now the proud owner of a second model and will be giving them a whirl (groan)

[Giga]

Whirlwinds are garbage. They could cost 35 points and they would still be crap. Even if they were better, they would still be competing for heavy support slots with things like stormravens, vindicators, predators, devastators etc.

 

If you play against hordes a lot and you absolutely need barrage weapons, get a thunderfire cannon.

[WarriorFish]

If Whirlwinds were 35pts "crap" is what your opponent's infantry would be doing, as well as what everyone would be throwing at GW for making such a ridiculously cheap unit...

[MagicMan]

Whirlwinds are great.

 

My Tau opponent now wastes points (and alot of his firepower) hiding his Fire Warriors inside devil-fish just because of my Whirlwind. Long may this continue.

[Ishagu]

You know... I do ponder getting them, but no way would I sacrifice my existing heavy slots.

 

I would consider getting two in a 2500 point game, as I can field more heavy slots....  but only in that case. Vindicators and my ever trusty Stormraven always do the business...

[Grey Mage]

Never could stomach vindicators outside of cityfight as anything but a fire magnet. These days with hull points, still having the short range- the only thing its got going for it you dont have guranteed lack of cannon after the first weapon destroyed hit. BAs seem to be a bit more worthwhile, being fast and all... but for regular marines or SWs? Nah.

 

Whirlwinds though- even against marines I usually get back what I paid for it and then some. Its there to force saves and make your opponent spread out. That slows down his forces and nets you kills. If he doesnt spread out, its been known to wipe out good sized chunks of the enemy too...

 

Of course its not as good against marines as it is vs xenos or guard- but Id argue that xenos and guard are the biggest threat these days.

 

As for taking up a heavy support slot.... C:SM can handily ally with itself, Im sure with a 4rth heavy in there theres plenty of room for such a cheap and valuable unit in most lists.

[Eddie Orlock]

 Its there to force saves and make your opponent spread out.

This is where I've historically found the real utility of the Whirlwind. It encourages your opponenet to disperse his formations. I had great experiences with them when I juxtiposed them with units that could exploit this, in the past I used character lead assault marines. In the current codex I'd give serious consideration to Bikers in concert with the White Scars tactics to get Hit and Run.

 

The rocket batter encourages them to spread out, yielding potential vectors of attack against hordes where you can clip their unit and keep several of their number out of the combat. Ideally you charge into a portion of the unit not in cover and drag them out with their engagement moves. Later you Hit and Run away and leave them stranded in the open and clumped up for the Whirlwinds to reap their bloody harvests.

[Azash]

Absolutely love them and own two of them dating back to early 5th ed.

 

There are three great things about whirlwinds.

 

1. They are cheap...now 65 pts! You double them up and combined they cost less than a 5 man Dev squad with heavy bolters! How the heck do you think I have saved the points in most of my lists to replace the predator with a dedicated transport land raider? :-)

 

2. They have a better str to ap ratio than a TFC. Since its ap4 everything but marine armies and select tau and eldar doesn't get a save. Barrage ignores everything but area terrain. So against mass model armies what you wound is automatically a casualty most of the time.

 

3. They are one of if not the most under estimated units in the codex. Gigas opinion is pretty common especially amongst non marine players. Everyone fears a LR and games and plans for it. Most people ignore or forget about the ww until they are removing models by the handful.

 

The other reality is how our codex works for unit options and what those options do.

 

Anti tank - ww sucks at it but I don't need to use a heavy slot for anti tank. We have plenty of options in elite, FA, and troop.

Anti mc - see anti tank

Anti horde - fantastic at it and there really isn't great anti horde in other slots. Fast attack has some unit builds but the (speeder squadron with twin HB) cost out paces the benefit.

Anti flyer - see anti tank. Fortifications and FA provide excellent options here.

[minigun762]

I actually like the idea of using this as my heavy support options:

 

Stalker

Hunter

Whirlwind

 

Total price: 210 points for 2 AA platforms and 1 artillery platform. Not a bad deal.

[aquamarine]

I didn't actually use Heavy Support with the last codex so my starting point is I have no probs with slot competition; my fire support was all FA as I preferred the mobility. Now with the drop in points for WWs and Speeders I'm having both

So my Heavy Support is going to be 2 Whirlwinds, and 5 Devs with MLs packing flakk for AA....FA slots stay 2 x Typhoon and a Talon.

[Grey Mage]

 

Anti tank - ww sucks at it but I don't need to use a heavy slot for anti tank. We have plenty of options in elite, FA, and troop.

Anti mc - see anti tank

Anti horde - fantastic at it and there really isn't great anti horde in other slots. Fast attack has some unit builds but the (speeder squadron with twin HB) cost out paces the benefit.

Anti flyer - see anti tank. Fortifications and FA provide excellent options here.

Meh, while its not good anti-MC and obviously not an anti-flyer tank, Ive actually had good success using the Ordnance rules with it to take out landspeeder squadrons, warlwalkers, non-armored sentinels, and ork trukks, even chimeras in parkinglot formation. The 2nd roll is a godsend, and while it doesnt always work its something to keep in mind when the game is tight.

[Scarrie]

 

 

Anti tank - ww sucks at it but I don't need to use a heavy slot for anti tank. We have plenty of options in elite, FA, and troop.

Anti mc - see anti tank

Anti horde - fantastic at it and there really isn't great anti horde in other slots. Fast attack has some unit builds but the (speeder squadron with twin HB) cost out paces the benefit.

Anti flyer - see anti tank. Fortifications and FA provide excellent options here.

Meh, while its not good anti-MC and obviously not an anti-flyer tank, Ive actually had good success using the Ordnance rules with it to take out landspeeder squadrons, warlwalkers, non-armored sentinels, and ork trukks, even chimeras in parkinglot formation. The 2nd roll is a godsend, and while it doesnt always work its something to keep in mind when the game is tight.

That's a good point. I usually forget all about the 2d6 pick the highest for ordnance.

[SillyDreadnought]

The only problem with whirlwinds is that they still aren't Heavy 2, like they were in 2nd edition. Two shots would justify the middling strength of the missiles alone. With two shots, I'd put one in every list. As it is, I'd rather take a Thunderfire. Few points more, four times the fire power at better strength with it's ignore cover rounds.

 

 

I really, really want to love the Whirlwind. But without Heavy 2 or the ability to squadron them to maximise their power, I won't take them in anything other than small points games.

[Grey Mage]

The thunderfire did get a boost, now that its not an AV 10 vehicle- couldnt stand having a single glancing bolter hit take the darn thing down, wouldnt use them before.

 

That being said, the 4 smaller shots vs hordes arent necessarily better, but not necessarily worse, and not having ordnance means theyre less reliable against those light vehicles. I figure its a matter of taste, especially with the free rhinos difference in points.

[Axagoras]

you can take the relic whirlwind Scorpius that fires 1+d3 small blasts that are 8 3 and its got better armor then a predator. Now thats a whirlwind I can run.

[Lysere]

you can take the relic whirlwind Scorpius that fires 1+d3 small blasts that are 8 3 and its got better armor then a predator. Now thats a whirlwind I can run.

 

I've been tempted to do that myself, but I need to actually get a whirlwind of some kind first. The other problem is getting the rules And getting my group to let me run it.