Terminators - Heroes of the Imperium...?

[Jonah]

Being the obsessive sort, I've ended up with 20 terminators from the DV kit. I was hoping they'd get some cool new rules in the latest codex, but they don't seem to have changed at all.

 

They're meant to be the elite of the elite, the super space marines, the emperor's finest. But they generally seem to be over-costed and die really easily to guardsmen.

 

Am I missing something? Is there a way to use these champions of mankind in a competitive way? I'd really like to use these 20 models, but all I can think of is ordering 20 storm shields & hammers and lining them up in some sort of spartan death-or-glory phalanx. That or buying Belial and using them as a Deathwing Assault.

[Argun]

Speaking on the Guardsman's behalf, it seems that your Terminators just seem to keep forgetting to close their eyes when they see all those flashlights.

 

The way I'd use those shooty termies would be to put them in a (slightly) obvious spot, possibly deep-strike them into the 24" range of their guns. Don't depend on them as much, as you'll want your opponent to focus on them instead of the rest of your army. More shots at them=less shots at more valuable units.

[Captain Idaho]

They're just too easy to kill compared to what damage they can inflict. They can still do well if lead by an appropriate character but they're hard to pull off something spectacular with.

 

I'd love to be contradicted here but I fear I'm right.

[Axagoras]

You are right Idaho, Ive gone from running 5 in a LR:R with a libby or lysander to running 10 with lysander to running none. They just will not make their points back and even as a fire magnet they will do down pretty fast. 200 points for 5 that will take a lot of fire to put down but a tac squad fires 2 plasma gun and a lascannon (along with bolters) will drop them. And dont get me started on eldar shuriken... they kill terminators twice as easily.

[WarriorFish]

Sadly Terminators weren't doing so great before and the new codex hasn't done anything to alleviate this. This is even worse now that GW is seemingly handing AP3 out like it's going out of style as even with the current environment Terminators still aren't that good.

They're still cool and look great but are pretty restricted when it comes to being effective and that's basically TH/SS, which is pretty tiresome to see now. What can you do though? I think the main recourse now is to treat them as slightly more fancy Marines and adjust your expectations accordingly. It is sad, but otherwise you'll never use them through disappointment.

At least 6th has made them more durable in CC. Maybe next codex, when GW realises nobody buys them any more?

Damn, writing this post has made me need a drink... a toast to Terminators of old perhaps

[Axagoras]

Gw is handing out AP 2 like its going out of style. The only terminators im getting for now will be the gorgon/morlock terminators fw makes. Even then not sure il even get them. Too bad we cant use cataphractii variants form wh 30k lol.

[minigun762]

I think the kicker is their damage out put.

Some S4 shots coupled with a heavy weapon is fine for a Tac Squad but not for 200+ points of Terminators.

[Ishagu]

My opinions of Terminators are as follows:

 

TH Termies are not worth it at all. Yes, in Assault they will kill pretty much anything, however it is becoming harder and harder to get them in to one. With a decent delivery, and enough models to survive a few rounds of shooting, they simply aren't worth their point investment. Too many long range, high strength, low AP weapons knocking about - and the units sizes are too small to survive, even with the 3++

If their Landraider is immobalized or destroyed they will be shot off the table before any assaults take place. Yes - a Stormraven can do the job, but you have to put it in to hover if you want them to assault as they disembark, in which case say goodbye to your 200+pt flyer.

 

Shooty Terminators are the better choice, and should be played defensively. They can shoot well, have good weapons and options, and if need be they can really cause a lot of damage in CC with their power fists. Don't let them get shot at, keep them in cover and play to their strengths. The enemy might think twice about trying to take an objective from you if the tactical squad camping on it can be re-enforced with shooting and an assault from some of these Terminators.

[WarriorFish]

In order to use Terminators effectively they've got to cower in cover? Dark days indeed...

Maybe they should change the description to "every chapter maintains a number of Terminator suits, but nobody uses them because GW are a load of flaming monkey brains"?

[Ishagu]

In order to use Terminators effectively they've got to cower in cover? Dark days indeed...

Maybe they should change the description to "every chapter maintains a number of Terminator suits, but nobody uses them because GW are a load of flaming monkey brains"?

It's grim indeed. These days if you want to really terrorize the enemy take some Centurians with Tigarius. Using Divination you can grant the unit 4++ and have them re toll misses on their wespons. Grav guns and missiles.

Yes that is expensive, but they will cause more carnage than a Landraider with TH Termies ever will...

Centurians are proving to be rather effective from most early reports, but they have to be supported correctly and used intelligently.

[FlameAnvil]

I too have fallen for the glory of our esteemed first company, I own 30 terminators, 20 are THSS... alas for Vulkan does not MC all THs....

[Captain Idaho]

I was thinking we might be able to make Terminators work by putting the likes of Calgar in a Tactical squad Drop Pod and then flood the opponent with bikes, drop pods and Deep Strike a squad of Terminators in using Calgar's Teleport homer.

 

Basically expose Terminators to as little attention as possible so they can actually get to use their guns and power fists in 1 turn.

[Jonah]

I was thinking we might be able to make Terminators work by putting the likes of Calgar in a Tactical squad Drop Pod and then flood the opponent with bikes, drop pods and Deep Strike a squad of Terminators in using Calgar's Teleport homer.

 

Basically expose Terminators to as little attention as possible so they can actually get to use their guns and power fists in 1 turn.

 

That's interesting, use them like Blood Angels and flood their deployment zone with 2/3+ armour dudes. It would be a very 1-dimensional list though, quite predictable and possibly boring to play after a while. I guess that's my main problem with terminators - despite having very powerful rules they're ultimately slow and dull to play.

[Grizzly_bear]

I've always thought that terminators should be T5 and be able to pay for an upgraded WS or BS depending on the type of terminator.

[L30n1d4s]

I know Terminators are difficult to employ in an efficient, competitive list due to their high points cost and the need to support them with other expensive units, such as Land Raiders, Storm Ravens, TDA Chaplains, etc.

 

That said, I believe if you carefuly craft your army to integrate with them, you can make a very effective battle group that is competitive and compliments your overall army style.

 

Personally, one of the ways I am looking at running them is with Tau Allies as follows:

 

-Iron Hands Chapter Master with SMB, AA, TH, Shield Eternal, and Primarchs Wrath (replaces Krak Grenades)

-10 IH Tactical Terminators with 2 CML

-Allied Tau Commander with all the toys (Iridium Armor, Onager Guantlet, Vectored Retro Thrusters, PENchip, MSS, C2 Node, Flamer, Shield Generator)

 

Offensively, this unit puts out 4 relentless TLed BS4, Cover Ignoring, Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter Krak Missiles a turn. Alternatively, against hordes it can shoot 4 Frag Missiles and 25 Bolter shots, all with TLed BS4 and Ignore Cover. Also, the Chapter Master can use his Orbital Bombardment (SMB makes him relentless) instead of Primarchs Wrath one turn for a cover ignoring, re-roll the scatter dice S10 AP1 shot with unlimited range and Monster Hunter/Tank Hunter... if that hits, whatever fall under the pie plate is in for a WORLD of hurt! ;)

 

Defensively, everyone has a 2+/5++ save minimum, with a 4++ on the Tau Commander and a 3++ on the Chapter Master. More importantly, the Tau Commander is T5, so he won't be IDed unless attacked by S10 or a Force Weapon, so he can take some hits for the group, like LC shots. Even better, the Chapter Master has a 2+/3++, IWND, and Eternal Warrior, so he can tank those Terminator killing wounds like a BOSS (see what I did there ;) ?). Also, being Iron Hands, the whole unit has FNP(6+), which may not sound like much, but when once or twice a game it saves youe 65 point CML Terminator, it is worth it.

 

Now, this may seem to be a bit of a strange and expensive unit (Bike CM combined with Tau Support Commander and Terminators), but I think it synergizes in a surpising and effective manner. As mentioned, the Biker CM and Tau Commander can absorb a great deal of damage that would normally threat the Terminators (Plasmas, Heavy Railguns, Melta weapons, Eldar Lance weapons, etc.), leaving the Terminators free to keep advancing relentless, shooting with their enhanced firepower (thank you allied Tau Commander) all the way. The enemy cannot just ignore this unit, as it has the range and firepower to threaten a whole spectrum of his units (from massed light infantry to MCs and heavy vehicles).

 

As the Terminator relentlessly advance, they also draw within close combat range, making them even more of a threat to his forces.... I don't care who you are, 30 PFs attacks on the charge, backed up by a S10 AP1 Onager Gauntlet and 5 Thunder Hammer attacks is not to be taken lightly. If the combat doesn't go well, you can use Hit and Run (from Vectored Retro Thrusters) on I5 (from the Chapter Master) to bounce out of combat, stormbolter the enemy in the face, and recharge himas required. Significantly, the Biker CM can break off at on any turn and use his high threat radius (12" move plus 2D6" assault) to intercept an close combat unit that is threatening to charge or simply to beat up on a target of oppurtunity (say a Riptide) while the Tau Commander and Terminators continue advancing/firestorming the enemy line relentlessly.

 

Now, this is where it gets interesting. I talked before about building an army to work cohesively with this (admitedly) expensive deathstar type unit. What options do we have?

 

First off, the Biker Chapter Master unlocks Bike Squads as Troops, so taking 2-3 squads of them for highly mobile fire support and late game objective seizing meshes quite well with the relentlessly advancing Terminator Deathstar.

 

Secondly, the Tau Commander unlocks the ability to take some long range fire support. A squad of Kroot Snipers and a Missileside team with Velocity Trackers can man you back line and provide long-range supporting fires that can threaten light vehicles, infantry hordes and, importantly, enemy flyers.

 

Finally, a pair of Vindicators and some Close Combat Scouts in a Land Speeder Storm for a late game scoring punch provide heavy firepower and mobility, as well as target saturation alongside your Terminators.

 

At 2000 points the list would look something like this:

 

HQ

-Biker Chapter Master

*Tau Commander

 

EL

-10 Terminators with 2 CMLs

 

TR

-5 SMB with 2 Grav Rifles

-5 SMB with 2 Grav Rifles

-5 CC Scouts with LS Storm

*18 Sniper Kroot with Shaper Upgrade

 

HS

-Vindicator

-Vindicator

*3 Suit Broadside Team with Missile Drones

 

As you can see, the Terminator/Chapter Master/Tau Commander are clearly the "flagship" unit of the army, but there is pretty decently balanced force built around them (i.e. anti-air, anti-tank, anti-horde, anti-MEQ, some close combat punch as required).

 

In terms of employment, I like to think of this army along the lines of Alexander the Great's Macedonian army which conquered the known world millenia past.... the foundation of the Macedonian army was the Phalanx of Sarissa-wielding pikemen, around which the entire army (skirmishers, heavy cavalry, elite Infantry, etc.) operated. Although the heavy "shock" force of the Campanion Cavalry was often the decisive unit in winning the battle, it was dependent on the Phalanx "anvil" to hold the enemy in place and form a base to maneuver around.

 

In the same way, I view the Terminator Deathstar as the foundation or base around which this kind of force revolves. Like the Phalanx, the Terminators advance relentless and pour firepower (greatly enhanced by the Tau Commander's support) into targets of oppurutunity.

 

Along side the Terminators, the pair of Vindicators push forward, throwing S10 pie plates down and creating target priority issues for the enemy (weapons that are good against Terminators are often also the weapons required to take on the Vindicators... which should the opponent focus his fire on?).

 

Maneuvering around this base are the SM Bikers, using their Grav Rifles to chip away at enemy elite units (i.e. Wraith Knights, Wraithguard, Terminators, Centurions, Battelsuits, etc.) and "shape" the battlefield for the rest of the army. The Bikes and LS Storm Scouts also use their very high mobility to get to objectives for those late game rushes to get more VPs.

 

Supporting all of this, the Sniper Kroot camp in terrain and provide very cost efficient Sniper Fire while holding down an objective and nearby Broadsides either hammer down enemy flyers or light/medium vehicles with their 24 S7 shots at turn.

 

While all this is going on, the Terminators continue to move forward, ready to get Line Breaker if not stopped or, if the the enemy focuses on them, using the Chapter Master's incredible durability to absorb the high octane stuff and their own good protection (2+/5++ and FNP(6+)) to deal with the massed firepower.

 

Anyway, as you can see, the point is that the army works in tight coordination and synchronization with the Terminators, both in pre-game planning and during in-game combined arms integration.

[Jonah]

I wish I could 'like' that comment more. Great ideas... thanks L30n1d4s!

[McFisty]

It is sad but true that terminators are not as useful as they used to be or should be still. I have always thought that a storm bolter is a bit weak for the roll that terminators should play and that one out of five in the unit with a heavy weapon is not enough to offset their shooting deficiencies. I would like to see S5 AP4 storm bolters or perhaps Eldar style rending lite. Maybe two heavy weapons per five terminators like we had in (4th ?) ed. Ceramite plating upgrade for a Land Raider would help deliver the TH/SS terminators with more reliability. Needless to say the termies are no longer the heroes of the Imperium that they used to be and will need some of the benefits that other codexes are getting these days before they become heroic again.

[Captain Idaho]

I know Terminators are difficult to employ in an efficient, competitive list due to their high points cost and the need to support them with other expensive units, such as Land Raiders, Storm Ravens, TDA Chaplains, etc.

That said, I believe if you carefuly craft your army to integrate with them, you can make a very effective battle group that is competitive and compliments your overall army style.

Personally, one of the ways I am looking at running them is with Tau Allies as follows:

-Iron Hands Chapter Master with SMB, AA, TH, Shield Eternal, and Primarchs Wrath (replaces Krak Grenades)

-10 IH Tactical Terminators with 2 CML

-Allied Tau Commander with all the toys (Iridium Armor, Onager Guantlet, Vectored Retro Thrusters, PENchip, MSS, C2 Node, Flamer, Shield Generator)

Offensively, this unit puts out 4 relentless TLed BS4, Cover Ignoring, Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter Krak Missiles a turn. Alternatively, against hordes it can shoot 4 Frag Missiles and 25 Bolter shots, all with TLed BS4 and Ignore Cover. Also, the Chapter Master can use his Orbital Bombardment (SMB makes him relentless) instead of Primarchs Wrath one turn for a cover ignoring, re-roll the scatter dice S10 AP1 shot with unlimited range and Monster Hunter/Tank Hunter... if that hits, whatever fall under the pie plate is in for a WORLD of hurt! ;)

Defensively, everyone has a 2+/5++ save minimum, with a 4++ on the Tau Commander and a 3++ on the Chapter Master. More importantly, the Tau Commander is T5, so he won't be IDed unless attacked by S10 or a Force Weapon, so he can take some hits for the group, like LC shots. Even better, the Chapter Master has a 2+/3++, IWND, and Eternal Warrior, so he can tank those Terminator killing wounds like a BOSS (see what I did there ;) ?). Also, being Iron Hands, the whole unit has FNP(6+), which may not sound like much, but when once or twice a game it saves youe 65 point CML Terminator, it is worth it.

Now, this may seem to be a bit of a strange and expensive unit (Bike CM combined with Tau Support Commander and Terminators), but I think it synergizes in a surpising and effective manner. As mentioned, the Biker CM and Tau Commander can absorb a great deal of damage that would normally threat the Terminators (Plasmas, Heavy Railguns, Melta weapons, Eldar Lance weapons, etc.), leaving the Terminators free to keep advancing relentless, shooting with their enhanced firepower (thank you allied Tau Commander) all the way. The enemy cannot just ignore this unit, as it has the range and firepower to threaten a whole spectrum of his units (from massed light infantry to MCs and heavy vehicles).

As the Terminator relentlessly advance, they also draw within close combat range, making them even more of a threat to his forces.... I don't care who you are, 30 PFs attacks on the charge, backed up by a S10 AP1 Onager Gauntlet and 5 Thunder Hammer attacks is not to be taken lightly. If the combat doesn't go well, you can use Hit and Run (from Vectored Retro Thrusters) on I5 (from the Chapter Master) to bounce out of combat, stormbolter the enemy in the face, and recharge himas required. Significantly, the Biker CM can break off at on any turn and use his high threat radius (12" move plus 2D6" assault) to intercept an close combat unit that is threatening to charge or simply to beat up on a target of oppurtunity (say a Riptide) while the Tau Commander and Terminators continue advancing/firestorming the enemy line relentlessly.

Now, this is where it gets interesting. I talked before about building an army to work cohesively with this (admitedly) expensive deathstar type unit. What options do we have?

First off, the Biker Chapter Master unlocks Bike Squads as Troops, so taking 2-3 squads of them for highly mobile fire support and late game objective seizing meshes quite well with the relentlessly advancing Terminator Deathstar.

Secondly, the Tau Commander unlocks the ability to take some long range fire support. A squad of Kroot Snipers and a Missileside team with Velocity Trackers can man you back line and provide long-range supporting fires that can threaten light vehicles, infantry hordes and, importantly, enemy flyers.

Finally, a pair of Vindicators and some Close Combat Scouts in a Land Speeder Storm for a late game scoring punch provide heavy firepower and mobility, as well as target saturation alongside your Terminators.

At 2000 points the list would look something like this:

HQ

-Biker Chapter Master

*Tau Commander

EL

-10 Terminators with 2 CMLs

TR

-5 SMB with 2 Grav Rifles

-5 SMB with 2 Grav Rifles

-5 CC Scouts with LS Storm

*18 Sniper Kroot with Shaper Upgrade

HS

-Vindicator

-Vindicator

*3 Suit Broadside Team with Missile Drones

As you can see, the Terminator/Chapter Master/Tau Commander are clearly the "flagship" unit of the army, but there is pretty decently balanced force built around them (i.e. anti-air, anti-tank, anti-horde, anti-MEQ, some close combat punch as required).

In terms of employment, I like to think of this army along the lines of Alexander the Great's Macedonian army which conquered the known world millenia past.... the foundation of the Macedonian army was the Phalanx of Sarissa-wielding pikemen, around which the entire army (skirmishers, heavy cavalry, elite Infantry, etc.) operated. Although the heavy "shock" force of the Campanion Cavalry was often the decisive unit in winning the battle, it was dependent on the Phalanx "anvil" to hold the enemy in place and form a base to maneuver around.

In the same way, I view the Terminator Deathstar as the foundation or base around which this kind of force revolves. Like the Phalanx, the Terminators advance relentless and pour firepower (greatly enhanced by the Tau Commander's support) into targets of oppurutunity.

Along side the Terminators, the pair of Vindicators push forward, throwing S10 pie plates down and creating target priority issues for the enemy (weapons that are good against Terminators are often also the weapons required to take on the Vindicators... which should the opponent focus his fire on?).

Maneuvering around this base are the SM Bikers, using their Grav Rifles to chip away at enemy elite units (i.e. Wraith Knights, Wraithguard, Terminators, Centurions, Battelsuits, etc.) and "shape" the battlefield for the rest of the army. The Bikes and LS Storm Scouts also use their very high mobility to get to objectives for those late game rushes to get more VPs.

Supporting all of this, the Sniper Kroot camp in terrain and provide very cost efficient Sniper Fire while holding down an objective and nearby Broadsides either hammer down enemy flyers or light/medium vehicles with their 24 S7 shots at turn.

While all this is going on, the Terminators continue to move forward, ready to get Line Breaker if not stopped or, if the the enemy focuses on them, using the Chapter Master's incredible durability to absorb the high octane stuff and their own good protection (2+/5++ and FNP(6+)) to deal with the massed firepower.

Anyway, as you can see, the point is that the army works in tight coordination and synchronization with the Terminators, both in pre-game planning and during in-game combined arms integration.

You sir are a bad, bad man!

[MagicMan]

It'd be nice to hear of some good uses for them that don't rely on allying with Tau. I dont really see that as a solution for everyone... Sounds like a nasty unit to face though.

[Office temp]

It is sad but true that terminators are not as useful as they used to be or should be still. I have always thought that a storm bolter is a bit weak for the roll that terminators should play and that one out of five in the unit with a heavy weapon is not enough to offset their shooting deficiencies. I would like to see S5 AP4 storm bolters or perhaps Eldar style rending lite. Maybe two heavy weapons per five terminators like we had in (4th ?) ed. Ceramite plating upgrade for a Land Raider would help deliver the TH/SS terminators with more reliability. Needless to say the termies are no longer the heroes of the Imperium that they used to be and will need some of the benefits that other codexes are getting these days before they become heroic again.

id like see them make stormbolters salvo 2/4 or rapid fire 2 (2 @ 24 or 4@12).

[Axagoras]

Well I used to run 10 tactical with 2 assault cannons (or cyclones depending on the mood that week) with lysander in the front, a mortis contemptor 2 vindies, a podded MM dread and 2 scout squads. it was really hit or miss, the big problem was making it to firing range without losing too many men.

[Jonah]

After some thought, I'm going to try using the Termies for what they (almost) actually are - Dark Angels Deathwing. I'll buy Belial and find 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers and ally them into my marine army. So that's 11 Terminator bodies coming in automatically on a turn of your choosing (1 or 2), they don't scatter and they get 22 Twin-linked Stormbolter shots and 4 Twin-linked Krak Missiles. And they have split-fire. If your opponent ignores them he then has 10 Power Fists in his backyard and a Fleshbaned, Master-crafted AP3 sword.

 

Someone has to be afraid of that, surely!

[DarkGuard]

Unfortunately, for Deathwing Terminators to be Troops, they need to in the primary detachment. You can't take allied scoring Deathwing Terminators.

[Ishagu]

You're better off with assault cannons if you deep strike. 4 twin linked st6 rending shots is better than krak missiles.

 

I will admit that DA Termies are far, far better than what we have.

[Grizzly_bear]

You're better off with assault cannons if you deep strike. 4 twin linked st6 rending shots is better than krak missiles.

 

I will admit that DA Termies are far, far better than what we have.

Ain't that the truth