HH Emperor.

[DuskRaider]

I just can't see it.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

don't worry, it will all be explained in the Black Library fashion. Right before he obliterates Horus' essence!

[Conn Eremon]

When has the Emperor been described as anything but?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

The Emperor has to have been at least as strong as Ferrus Manus considering he battled the Void Dragon, who is not weaker than Asirnoth.

 

So I would say he is very, very strong.

[Scribe]

When has the Emperor been described as anything but?

 

Actually there are several mentions that what characters (primarchs/mortals/whatever) perceive is nothing but a glamour. Again, we know of a mention, in the canon, of the Emperor being physically choked to the point of risk of death, by a bloody Ork.

 

Meanwhile, Angron can military press a Titan trying to stomp him.

 

Again, I dont see any reason to believe (yet) physically, that the Big E is anything special. Biomancy doesnt count, because thats psyker aid.

 

Pure up, muscles, blood and bone? I dont put him on the Primarchs level.

[Conn Eremon]

The biggest Ork around, the Warboss of an ork empire more vast than any other in history, that would put Ghazgull to shame and was the toughest fight Horus ever had. it was the Emperor-ork. So . . .

 

And yes, the Emperor has been knoen to trade identities and size. But the language always makes it clear that the normal self is the disguise, that his super-awesome self was the more truthful.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

He has knocked out Leman Russ on two different occasions who is a pretty formidable Primarch. Vulkan, the guy who throws around tanks like playtoys, was brought to a standstill in an anvil holding contest versus the Emperor. There are a few of the Primarchs who would not bow to a man of lesser physical strength or ability, psyker ability or no. Some (like Angron) might even resent the use of glamour or magic tricks to enhance ability beyond the norm for their body. It seems more likely that the Emperor is not only equal to the Primarchs but seems to be superior.

 

Cormac is right on; that ork was probably the size of a scout titan, particularly if Ork size is related to Waaagh! size, considering that was the largest gathering of Orks. Ever. I seem to recall reading or hearing something (might have been speculation here) that the psychic resonance from that size of a Waaagh! together could interrupt or equal the Emperor's warp power. It seems like a good theory.

 

Anyways, Big E is super duper powerful in both terms of physical and psychic might. Epic on both scales would not even begin to begin with the 'man'.

[depthcharge12]

Emperor model:

 

 

Shine an incredibly bright LED light into your opponents retinas then smash all his models while he is blinded.

 

After opponent comes to, play with remaining models on field.

 

 

Lol jk

 

 

In all seriousness I hope that their diorama is that sweet layout that has the Emperor ascending the steps while Horus is standing emperor palpatine style

[Scribe]

KO'ing someone, killing a dragon, whatever, still says nothing about pure physical prowess, as he could just as easily power up to over 9000 do that.

 

Unless you want to say you cannot divorce his psyker abilities from his raw stats line, I just dont see where in the fluff he is anything but (scoff) the most potent human psyker ever.

 

Otherwise hes going to be pretty damn boring no?

 

10/10/10/10/9W/10/10/10/2++

 

Good times? :p

 

He needs to be potent, but at the end of the day, this is a being who was 'slain' for all intents and purposes, and COULD have been slain by an Ork! I dont care if its a titan sized Ork, its an Ork! A filthy greenskin! :D

 

9WS, 7BS, 5S, 5T, 8W, I7, 6A, LD10, 2+

 

Something like that is what I would run with.

 

After that?

 

Mastery level 6.

Knows all spells, of all lores, and re-rolls failed Psychic tests.

 

EW, 2++, Sword of killer awesomeness, lightning claw of unity, and baaaaaaaaaaaaaam, rock on.

[Conn Eremon]

Yes, he can use his mind powers to do all kinds of physical things. But when it matters most he does not use it until the physical duel between himself and Chaos Horus ended in a stalemate. Then he used mind powers and Chaos Horus was obliterated. I am not sure where the idea came from that he is physically just a basic human because I see no sign of it in the fluff. Only the contrary. He's a suped-up Magnus-Angron fusion.

 

Which is why I want his model, but not his rules. I mean, how the hell do you balance that, beyond Codex:the Emperor.

[Scribe]

Exactly my point, but your going to tell me they wont have his rules? I mean, thats the end game of the series as I see it.

 

I like to think it was more than a slugging match between the Emperor and Horus. I mean really to me it HAS to be more than that. Metaphysical and crazy and reality bending. Its the central point of the setting really, no way they leave that at 'The Emperor COULD have ended it, but didnt want to, so instead he got beat up for a bit."

 

Its one of those kind of stupid things imo that need to be addressed in some fashion...or not addressed at all, and I dont think they are going to finish the series with 'Then the Emperor teleported...and the rest is history'

 

Just cant see it, but unfortunately I'll be old and grey(er) by the time it all wraps up. :p

[Conn Eremon]

Unless they retcon it, that is what happens. It is at the end, when Horus kills someone else, that the Emperor decides he is unredeemable and ends him. It is rather anti-climactic, but there it is. They fight and fight, Horus kills an apparently interchangeable guy, Horus' soul ceases to exist. The Emperor could have done that at any time.

[calgar101]

I hope the Emperor's model is very much like the picture of him on page 7 of the new Space Marine codex.

[Cerbero666]

Unless they retcon it, that is what happens. It is at the end, when Horus kills someone else, that the Emperor decides he is unredeemable and ends him. It is rather anti-climactic, but there it is. They fight and fight, Horus kills an apparently interchangeable guy, Horus' soul ceases to exist. The Emperor could have done that at any time.

 

Exactly, he was still a father trying to save his son (his favorite son btw). He didn't fight at his 100% because he was trying to turn DaemonicHorus to JustHorus again. That was his weakness, and that's the reason why he ended in the Golden Throne. Is even more tragic than the: "Chaos powered Horus beat him to death", because he could have won from the first moment and then humanity would have been saved (or not but we'll never now), but he decided to give Horus another chance, and he get crippled because of that. The, possibly, only time that the Emperor showed true compassion "killed" him. Such irony.

[lilMAC25]

 

Unless they retcon it, that is what happens. It is at the end, when Horus kills someone else, that the Emperor decides he is unredeemable and ends him. It is rather anti-climactic, but there it is. They fight and fight, Horus kills an apparently interchangeable guy, Horus' soul ceases to exist. The Emperor could have done that at any time.

 

Exactly, he was still a father trying to save his son (his favorite son btw). He didn't fight at his 100% because he was trying to turn DaemonicHorus to JustHorus again. That was his weakness, and that's the reason why he ended in the Golden Throne. Is even more tragic than the: "Chaos powered Horus beat him to death", because he could have won from the first moment and then humanity would have been saved (or not but we'll never now), but he decided to give Horus another chance, and he get crippled because of that. The, possibly, only time that the Emperor showed true compassion "killed" him. Such irony.

Bingo.

 

The Big E's HUMANITY (despite the fact that he is a genetic and psychic super-being) is what doomed him (along with his foreknowledge of the coming events)... That's a very tragic figure.  A Messiah who is crucified for 10,000 years for his efforts.  A Messiah who has thousands sacrificed to him daily, which causes him even more pain. A Messiah who sacrificed himself for humanity, only to be forced to watch it crumble for 10,000 years.

[Deamon Wolf]

Wow I never imagined this topic would create such strong feelings in you all

 

I personally love to see what the do for the horus and BigE diorama but I hope it's not the BigE on the steps with

BigH standing over sanguinious rotting corpse love the picture but in my models I prefer something more dynamic.

Rules wise they will probably do a cross between Antron and Magnus then give it to Matt Wards because its just not over powered enough

Then they will slap on a £100 price tag because us old grizzled vets will all want the epic battle in diorama format and they will make it a limited edition of 10,000 units first 1000 get a dead blood angel for free

 

( sry blood angels just lots a game against one of your kindred )

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Wow I never imagined this topic would create such strong feelings in you all

 

 

Are you serious?

 

"Hey, here's my opinion on something that has the potential to be explosively controversial to a huge following of people. Whatcha think?"

[Wade Garrett]

Is even more tragic than the: "Chaos powered Horus beat him to death", because he could have won from the first moment and then humanity would have been saved (or not but we'll never now), but he decided to give Horus another chance, and he get crippled because of that. The, possibly, only time that the Emperor showed true compassion "killed" him. Such irony.

 

I'm sorry, but if that's the line the Heresy novels go with then the Emperor is truly the most pathetic of beings. He abandoned Horus to fiddle around with the webway, but when the Warmaster is standing in front of him, covered in Sanguinus's blood, his armies down on Terra slaughtering millions, the Emperor, Mr. Burn the Churches with the Priests in them, Purge this world with xenos/artificial intelligence/whatever I've banned today sparing not the infant or the elder...THIS is when he decides to blink?

 

His best friend Malcador SACRIFICED his life so the Emperor could teleport up there and end Horus. And he won't. SANGUINUS sacrificed his life fighting Horus for the Imperium. And the Emperor won't...all those that died fighting to stop Horus, and the Emperor **** all over them.

 

Disgusting. He doesn't deserve to be the Master of Mankind.

[Conn Eremon]

Don't worry, Wade. He didn't have it for very long. After the Siege it was just all downhill for him. Little more than a puppet ruler, really.

[GrandMagnus]

Spoken like a true traitor there, Wade...

 

But after all Horus was his favorite son. Any father would have a hard time to kill his own son. Sure, he has burned entire worlds and slaughtered millions but why should he care, he has a grand plan and these people he doesnt know are in his way. But his son? Thats something entirely diferent.

 

I had to say it, but that doesnt mean that I think the Emperor should have spared Horus, he should have given him a good slap in the face... of his soul... with a mind blasting bullet.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm just having a hard time reconciling the image of the Emperor the Heresy novels have shown me ("Some will say it is hubris. They have that luxury. The luxury of not knowing what I know, that my actions, though grotesque and incomprehensible to some, will save our us all.") with...how did the "40k Lore in Under A Minute" put it? " A sentimental old sod who couldn't bring himself to deal with his son until Horus had beaten him almost into a coma".

 

Plus you look at everybody else...Fulgrim was Ferrous's most beloved brother. Didn't stop the Gorgon from going after him with everything he had on Isstvan. Sanguinus was closest to Horus. But with tears in his eyes and acid in his heart, he tried to take the traitorous monster's head. And so on, and so forth.

 

To me, the whole thing reeks of those anime showdowns where the Hero, after massacring uncountable mooks, then allows themselves to be sliced to bits by their former best friend turned evil because doggone it, it's the power of friendship, man! FRIENDS!

 

One of the things I LIKE about 40K is that it tends to be refreshingly free of such nonsense, to see it creep in at such an important moment raises my hackles perhaps a bit more than it deserves.

[depthcharge12]

I'm just having a hard time reconciling the image of the Emperor the Heresy novels have shown me ("Some will say it is hubris. They have that luxury. The luxury of not knowing what I know, that my actions, though grotesque and incomprehensible to some, will save our us all.") with...how did the "40k Lore in Under A Minute" put it? " A sentimental old sod who couldn't bring himself to deal with his son until Horus had beaten him almost into a coma".

 

Plus you look at everybody else...Fulgrim was Ferrous's most beloved brother. Didn't stop the Gorgon from going after him with everything he had on Isstvan. Sanguinus was closest to Horus. But with tears in his eyes and acid in his heart, he tried to take the traitorous monster's head. And so on, and so forth.

 

To me, the whole thing reeks of those anime showdowns where the Hero, after massacring uncountable mooks, then allows themselves to be sliced to bits by their former best friend turned evil because doggone it, it's the power of friendship, man! FRIENDS!

 

One of the things I LIKE about 40K is that it tends to be refreshingly free of such nonsense, to see it creep in at such an important moment raises my hackles perhaps a bit more than it deserves.

 

heh

 

Like Goku/Vegeta?

 

upon defeating him:

 

"Are you sorry? If you are, you can leave" :)

 

Vegeta: "Wha- uh yeah I guess"

 

which absolutely drives vegeta insane and on an eternal crusade to finally kick kakarot's butt, which, lets be real. He really never will.

[Wade Garrett]

Bleach is the worst offender here.

 

"Oh hello, Espada Numero Ten! You've made yourself look like this dead guy I kinda sorta had a crush on just to mess with my head! IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE! I'LL LET MYSELF BE MURDERED 9/10s of the way to death before I finally get my head in the game and start taking this seriously!"

 

Personally, the best response I've seen to that sort of thing was in a vampire movie, where a turned Vamp hunter is mocking his friend.

 

"Could you do it? Really? Kill your best friend?"

 

"You ain't my friend. You're the thing that killed him." (Cue Flamethrower dispensed RETRIBUTION!)

[Cerbero666]

I'm just having a hard time reconciling the image of the Emperor the Heresy novels have shown me ("Some will say it is hubris. They have that luxury. The luxury of not knowing what I know, that my actions, though grotesque and incomprehensible to some, will save our us all.") with...how did the "40k Lore in Under A Minute" put it? " A sentimental old sod who couldn't bring himself to deal with his son until Horus had beaten him almost into a coma".

 

Plus you look at everybody else...Fulgrim was Ferrous's most beloved brother. Didn't stop the Gorgon from going after him with everything he had on Isstvan. Sanguinus was closest to Horus. But with tears in his eyes and acid in his heart, he tried to take the traitorous monster's head. And so on, and so forth.

 

To me, the whole thing reeks of those anime showdowns where the Hero, after massacring uncountable mooks, then allows themselves to be sliced to bits by their former best friend turned evil because doggone it, it's the power of friendship, man! FRIENDS!

 

One of the things I LIKE about 40K is that it tends to be refreshingly free of such nonsense, to see it creep in at such an important moment raises my hackles perhaps a bit more than it deserves.

 

I understand your view, but IMO it's more complex than that. When it comes to the rage between best friends, when one betrays another (like Fulgrim and Ferrus) it's easier to feel that rage, and hate, you trusted him and all he does is put a knife between your ribs. I felt that some times, with some people I used to care about, trust and love. But we are not talking of friendship in the case of the Emperor and Horus. The Warmaster is his son, the Emperor probably would think that what Horus had become was in part his fault. Your son, the one you raise, the one you put all your trust and hopes in, comes back from a place where you left him alone, without any advice, or care, and he comes back changed into an evil man. You know he's evil, you know you must to destroy him, but you know also that it is your fault in some way, and you doubt, because damn it, if there's a chance to turn him good again, and exorcise him of the evil powers that have been using him like a puppet, why wouldn't you take that option. Maybe the Big E tried to enter his mind and fight the Chaos Gods to save Horus, who knows? But what really matters is that at the end, he took the decision to kill Horus, because he was beyond redemption. It's not that the Emperor is a weak-tender-cotton candy-unicorn, but he's a father and the man has the right to doubt in that situation.

 

Edit: I said friendship between Fulgrim and Ferrus because I think that the relationship between Primarchs are more of really good friends than brother as in a blood brother. But either way it serves the purpouse. Brothers can fight and hate each other, or a son hating his father, a father really hating a son, is more difficult. Not forgiveness at all? Near impossible.

[Scribe]

Father and Son nothing. This frankly cannot be reconciled in such a manner.

 

Horus torched how many worlds? How many more fell under the actions of the other rebels?

 

Its clear even at this 'early' stage of the telling, that the ideals of the crusade, the purpose of the enlightenment of humanity is lost. Even if the Emperor tries to take the long view "Oh I will just fix this in the year 55000" Horus has done far more than could ever be forgiven, and the Emperor walks in to see the Angel dead at Horus' feet.

 

If the Emperor just sucks it up and gets beat on until he clues in I'll be shockingly disappointed, but I have a feeling ADB wont allow that kind of thing to happen. :]