HH Emperor.

[Scribe]

The Emperor is a petty tyrant, no better than those he disposed of. He had no interest in freedom, in the betterment of humanity, his entire perspective was one of survival at best, as long as it was done on his terms.

 

When you accept that fact that he was not infallible as the Heresy itself proves, you have to then question if perhaps, just maybe, his little song and dance was a lie in the first place.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Under any other 'petty tyrant' the Xenos would curbstomp humanity. At least with the Emperor, we have human rulers and can swing, toe to toe, with any other race/faction/power in the universe.

[Kol Saresk]

Idk, Abaddon seems to do okay with handling the xenos. So it would instead seem to be that whichever petty tyrant has the guns and army to do will curbstomp the xenos.

[Bryan Blaire]

The Interex seemed to have done pretty good with the Xenos and where actively opposed to Chaos as well as seeming to be pretty human-centric overall.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

but Abaddon is using the creations of the Emperor to do it...

 

It seems unrealistic that anyone else could have united both Terra and Mars at that time (not discussing in the past) due to all the issues, other than the Emperor. The Imperium surivives/was established via Space Marines, again only the Emperor seems to have done it.

 

I would say that the Emperor is more like Phillip of Macedon than anyone else in our current history. Look at his military tactics, he sets up Macedon as a powerhouse militarily utilising a number of new inventions. Sure, other people had the ideas, but he was the only one who had the idea to put it all together and kick ass. Likewise, the Emp put together all the ideas and sorted things out. Plus, he made Mars strong via throwing the Void Dragon into Mars. Without that, there would be no Martian Creed, no AdMech, no Forge Worlds.

 

Sure, hes not perfect. Even Phillip had his problems, but hes a darn sight better than the alternatives! At least thats my opinion anyway

[Scribe]

See, but humanity did survive without him. How long was the Age of Strife? 20k to 30k?

 

Yes, its a given that the Great Crusade, and the creation of the Space Marines did some huge things to change the power structure of the setting, but frankly its not like Humanity was on its last legs, otherwise they would have jumped to join up with the Emperor, and 'compliance' wouldnt have been needed.

[GhostMalone]

you are right in some cases, but a lot of humanity wasn't safe so many worlds had fallen to greenskins elder and numerous other races.

humanity had reverted back to medieval eras, and as some colonies had higher levels of tech even maintained connections with neighbours most of humanity was separated and in need of saving.

 

it was humanities last chance at glory and they took it

[Cerbero666]

Well, the Emperor isn't a bloody tyrant because he wants to. I don't think so. Think about it, he's been around for 40 thousand years, he has seen every single evil aspect of humanity, but he didn't give up. He surely tried some pacific ways to deal with our salvation, but we throw it at his face (Jesuschrist anyone?). Gandhi was around a hundred years ago and it didn't stop the WWII, the Cold War, and all the damn death in the XX century and the beginning of the XXI. Let assume that humankind is stupid, that's the truth, and the Emperor has been around thousand of years to realize it. He has tried every single way to put it right, but it was for nothing, just when he stepped in, and became the "bloody tyrant" he had some success. It was a war againts chaos, you know deformed daemons and laughing gods that mutate mortal limbs and minds. And humankind wouldn't have stopped to be believers without the hard Imperial Truth and that absence of freedom, because we are stupid, and we hadn't the knowledge (and probably with it humankind woud have been worse, because that's how we deal with things). Humankind was feeding Chaos without any care about it. He had to make the wrong decision for the right purpose. Does he like it? I think not, but he needs to be ruthless in order to save his race, the race he has been fighting for all his long life. He tried everything and it failed, being the tyrant Emperor was the next logical consequence, and he had some success for many years, until the Heresy. And maybe, the Heresy was in his plans too, who knows? He already knew it for what it seems, if the Cabal had knowledge of the two or three acuicities, why he not? they even tried to recruit him so... He had to make some sacrifices to defeat chaos, maybe his sons deaths and his own. He's like a god now, he's gaining power in the warp, maybe that was his plan C or Z, defeat the Chaos Gods in their own terrain. I dunno but I'm sure that all he does is for a reason, the salvation of humankind, and that he tried every other way and it didn't work. I would have left humankind for dead some time ago if I was him.

 

Plus....HERETICS!!!

[FunkyMonkey]

As for me, I don't doubt the Emperor's purpose, so I don't judge him for his tyrannical rule.  I'm merely pointing out his hypocritical behavior.  For the Emperor to be teaching the Imperial Truth as he was in the Last Church was utterly hypocritical, but even if he wasn't hypocritical about it, I have huge doubts that the Imperial Truth was the only way that could stop feeding the Chaos Gods.  I mean, like I said before, religion or no religion, the Chaos Gods are going to be fed by human emotion, and as far as I can tell, the Imperial Truth only serves to make people more susceptible to the base emotions.  

[Kol Saresk]

 

The Interex seemed to have done pretty good with the Xenos and where actively opposed to Chaos as well as seeming to be pretty human-centric overall.

But then they were wiped out by a single expedition of gene-bred warriors with inferior technology. The Interex suffered the same problem as the Eldar: a dedicated enemy could and would wipe them out and their small numbers.

[Greyall]

Calling him a tyrant and one who acts in absolutes is ok, but deeming the Emperor bloodthirsty because he kills is inaccurate and 'insulting' (it's a fictional character, can't be insulted) just because.

 

His crusade doesn't kill non-compliants because he wants blood. It does it because, from the Empy's POV, Humanity is out of time.

 

To me, the Emperor's biggest mistake is his view on religion. Though one can't say he lacks reasons to think as he does. That's the underlying 'meta' message of 40K, to me - 'Gods suck and make your life suck as well. Obey them!'

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Humanity survived the Age of Strife in a better condition than the Eldar...I will grant that. Which is to say we didn't turn into Slanesh's playthings immediately. Instead, we fell from the pinacle of technological power, we lost contact with every world, Mars lost their world and became red again starting the AdMech as a religion, Terra turned into a world where rivals fought for any scrap of power, Xenos ruled countless human worlds enslaving millions if not more humans.

 

So, yea, we 'survived' during the Age of Strife. If there had been no AoS there may never have been a need for the Emperor to rule in person. But the truth of the matter is this: he lived since nearly the beginning of human time. He guided our race for how many tens of thousands of years. He must have done so many things that enabled humanity to prosper, survive and progress throughout his life we will never know about. To say he wasn't necessary in this timeline is to miss that the very reason one might, might possibly, say he was not necessary was precisely because of what he did in the past. To point to a past timeframe and say 'humanity progressed in the DAoT without the Empy' is to ignore the fact he guided humanity through that time period. Who knows who he was? Dr Gellar, perhaps, creator of the Gellar field. Or inspired said scientist to create it thus making warp travel possible. Where did navigators come from? Tampering? Who was the first President of Terra leading space colonisation? How were the Iron Men defeated?

 

The answer may very well be: The Emperor. It may not be, sure, but in our timeline when we know he was alive, we know he was guiding, we know he was there with a plan...it's reasonable to assume he did a heck of a lot of these things to progress humanity and without him we would never have got very far of this rock before some Xenos rocked up and killed us all.

[Greyall]

Aye, the setting seems to place the Emperor as undeniably essential for Mankind's survival to this day. Of course, part of that 'setting' is Imperial propaganda, but I do think there's a measure of reason in the Emperor's vision. Also, there's a whole lot of sense in Mankind being united under an ideology that makes us less prone to fall into Chaos.

 

Therein lies the Emperor's mistake, though, he told no one about the threat of the Warp, not only leaving humans unprepared for their first contact, but also amplifying the threat. In this, he also opened doors for suspicion and criticism to sneak in and poison the relationship between him and some of his sons, like Lorgar, Khan, etc.

 

PS: On ADB's novel, I do hope we see the Emperor perform a feat of power. I miss reading about hundreds of thousands of Astartes kneeling into the dirt because the Emperor mind-shouted.

[Cerbero666]

Aye, the setting seems to place the Emperor as undeniably essential for Mankind's survival to this day. Of course, part of that 'setting' is Imperial propaganda, but I do think there's a measure of reason in the Emperor's vision. Also, there's a whole lot of sense in Mankind being united under an ideology that makes us less prone to fall into Chaos.

 

Therein lies the Emperor's mistake, though, he told no one about the threat of the Warp, not only leaving humans unprepared for their first contact, but also amplifying the threat. In this, he also opened doors for suspicion and criticism to sneak in and poison the relationship between him and some of his sons, like Lorgar, Khan, etc.

 

PS: On ADB's novel, I do hope we see the Emperor perform a feat of power. I miss reading about hundreds of thousands of Astartes kneeling into the dirt because the Emperor mind-shouted.

 

 

I don't find the lies about the Warp as a complete mistake. Yes, humans are leaving unprepared for their first contact BUT if they knew about the Warp and what lies in there, how many mad scientist, sorcerers, and tyrants would emerge with the use of that card? It is a double-edged sword. Yes they would have been prepared, but also they would have used it power in the wrong way, causing a devastation that could have been even worse than the heresy. Don't give a pyromanical a flamethrower, and humankind is famous for the misuse of their new toys. 

 

Besides, denying the existence of the daemons and Chaos Gods would weaken them eventually. IIRC that's why they used some pawns to start the Heresy and regain power. 

[Kol Saresk]

Well, yes and no. The Dark Gods still feed on the base emotions that created them, regardless of whether or not worship is involved. But, the worship does act as a power booster. So if Humanity had become one hundred percent secular, then they would have been weakened, but as long as Humanity suffered disease, waged war, had flesh houses and drugs, and were always plotting against each other, they would survive. The Heresy was a way to get a huge appetizer that would set off an eternal all-you-can-eat buffet.

[Greyall]

Agreed, although Humanity's current worshipping of the Emperor has supposedly allowed him to keep the Chaos Gods's influence in check, to a degree. Still, all the wars, depravation and disease still count towards the Gods' tally.

[Bryan Blaire]

But then they were wiped out by a single expedition of gene-bred warriors with inferior technology. The Interex suffered the same problem as the Eldar: a dedicated enemy could and would wipe them out and their small numbers.

I was more speaking of the humans' interactions with Xenos. There didn't have to be a total extermination of all Xenos to allow humanity to survive, and the lack of Xenos wouldn't automatically keep the Chaos Gods away (in reality, a lack of Eldar may actually give Slaanesh more abailty to focus on humanity).

 

The Xenophobia of the Emperor isn't well explained or expanded, nor does it seem to have any good basis in the story line at this point. It just seems like the Emperor being xenophobic to simply be xenophobic.

[Conn Eremon]

It isn't as if xenophobia is an unreasonable malady in 30k. 99% of xenos are horrific entities aching for humanity's utter destruction or enslavement. They were as big a threat as Chaos, just entirely external. The Interex got lucky and happened to be surrounded by some xeno One Percenters, that is all. It isn't as if the Imperium and its myriad elements didn't have that either. In 30k, we have the Laer proposed as a protectorate, like has been done with others. Fulgrim was just too full of himself to go with it. But it had been done before. Murder killed some Legionaries, leading the Legions to choose destruction when, really, it wasn't necessary. In 40k we have the Jokaero and the Watchers in the Dark. The Imperium is vast. The 99% are all there for the imperium.

 

The only real difference between the Interex and the Imperium is that the Imperium didn't involve them at a basic level in their society.

[Wade Garrett]

Eh...given that the Eldar view of humanity is "When the wolves are on your trail, throw somebody off the sleigh", the greenskin is "Oy! Krump da humies good an propah!" not to mention the witch worms of Nove Shendak, the Slaanesh tainted laer, the megarachnids....I'll give Emps a pass on the xenophobia thing, even if it did seem to be a jerk move in the case of the Diasporex.

 

Also, if we're going to credit the Emperor for shepherding humanity through the ages, mustn't we then blame him for the collapse of DAoT humanity and the Age of Strife that followed it?

 

As for the Cabal trying to recruit him...according to Legion, they also tried to recruit Angron and the World Eaters before they made contact with the Alphas. If these fellows are our last best hope against Chaos then I think we better start getting some eight pointed star tats and body piercings.

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, there are probably some elements of the treaty with the AdMech involved. After all, what is the point in incorporating aliens into society if you aren't going to use their technology, unless they specifically bring something to the mix besides just tech. They can't just bring superior soldiers, because there are already the Astartes.

[Greyall]

Why, because they tried to recruit Angron? It's not like it's working that well with the Alphas, is it?

 

The Emperor has that goddamned "You wouldn't begin to understand" excuse for every questionable act of his. And it's true to some extent, maybe he knew Humanity would have to go through those dark ages to finally 'be ready' for his grand plan...

[Wade Garrett]

Why, because they tried to recruit Angron?

 

Please explain to me how a secretive conspiracy that manipulates chess pieces from the shadows can look at the giant bellowing beserker with his medulla oblongata crammed full of crazy machines and go "Yep. This is definitely a guy we want playing on our team."

 

Their logic must be very different from our puny mon-keigh logic. I feel sorry for the poor agent that got the job of making contact with the Twelfth Legion.

[Greyall]

Well, at least he wouldn't be another player, Angron would be a chess piece to be controlled. The hardest part would be to, as you said, convince him, but they wouldn't have to tell him the truth, just direct him against the Emperor. Angron's a great tool, like we've discussed previously. If used right, he'll open the noughest but because, as someone put it, 'If brute strength isn't the answer, you're not using enough'.

 

Not the most obvious choice, of course, but many of the others were even more uncontrollable. Chances are only one as rash as Angron or as scheming as Alpharius would take the time to listen to the Cabal's theories.

 

Perhaps Perturabo, as well.

[Conn Eremon]

How did the Cabal try to reach Angron? When? Because for all we know, they might have been those dead xenos surrounding the kid when found by proper Nucerians.

[Kais Klip]

Well, there are probably some elements of the treaty with the AdMech involved. After all, what is the point in incorporating aliens into society if you aren't going to use their technology, unless they specifically bring something to the mix besides just tech. They can't just bring superior soldiers, because there are already the Astartes.

 

I'd wager there are plenty of suitable replacements for the Astartes, such as the Thallax, and while perhaps few if any of those will ever be as useful as Astartes for the Imperium (quantity vs quality), I don't think the Imperium would be as quick to turn away from extra military resources as you suggest. Provided they are "acceptable" in all meaning of the word, of course.