Suspensor webs and Art of Destruction?

[depthcharge12]

Hey guys,

 

was just thinking of a rules lawyering question that I need answered.

 

 

I was looking up the special rule Art of Destruction under siege breakers and Durak Rask and was wondering about putting them in a squad of vets with missile launchers with suspensor webs.

 

 

Now the special rule states: The siege breaker has the tank hunter and wrecker special rules applied to all of their own attacks, and also confers these rules to the heavy weapon shooting attacks of any infantry unit they join.

 

 

Now the conundrum:

 

Missile launchers are heavy weapons and the suspensor webs state:

 

"A heavy weapon with a suspensor web effectively allows the firer to treat the weapon as having the type assault rather than Heavy"

 

 

 

 

Now does that mean that missile launchers firing with the suspensor web cannot benefit from the Art of Destruction rule? They are still heavy weapons, but fire as assault weapons.

 

What do you guys think?

[hisdudeness]

I don't think "act as" is the same as is.

[depthcharge12]

I don't think "act as" is the same as is.

 

So then you would agree that it retains its heavy weapons profile?

 

Its just so wierd how FW worded it. They didn't say weapons with the Heavy profile, but rather heavy weapons in a squad.

 

its odd

[WarSpirit]

It is still a heavy weapon but count as assault because of the web. I think that you still benefit fron Art of Destruction.

[Vazzy]

Look at the suspensor web rule, specifically the italics, it states "...can be used as if it was 18" assault 3..."

 

Seems clear cut to me. It's still a heavy weapon, thus still benefits. 

[Vardus]

Look at the suspensor web rule, specifically the italics, it states "...can be used as if it was 18" assault 3..."

Seems clear cut to me. It's still a heavy weapon, thus still benefits.

As stated the suspensor web effectively gives a heavy weapon a second shooting profile to choose from, but is still a heavy weapon.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Agreed, this one seems straight up and down to me too

[Russ Brother 92]

Yup - with everyone else here - I'd say it's like Logan Grimnar's ability to give long fangs relentless - they're still firing Heavy Weapons but are allowed to move and shoot like a regular (non-heavy) weapon, so yup they still have Heavy Weapons (as all Missile Launchers are such) they just fire as if they were Assault Weapons (allowing them to move/shoot/assault) but would deff benefit from a rule affecting Heavy Weapons.

 

TLDR; yes they will, they're still heavy weapons.

[hisdudeness]

I believe everyone nailed it. If we wee not allowed to still shoot it a full range as a heavy weapon I might feel different.

[Lucien Eilam]

RAW, there's no provision for picking and choosing which bits of the profile you want to use. There's no such weapon type as "Both Assault and Heavy".

 

Either you're firing it as an assault weapon, so you can move and fire at full BS/use frag, but don't benefit from Art of Destruction.

 

Or you're firing it as a heavy weapon, in which case you benefit from Art of Destruction but can only snap-shot if you move.

 

You can choose each turn, because you "can" fire it as an assault weapon don't have to, but you can't say you're firing it "as" an assault weapon for the purposes of some rules but not others.

[Kol Saresk]

@Lucien: But nowhere is the Missile Launcher ever made an Assault Weapon. And Art of Destruction affects Heavy Weapons, not Weapons using a Heavy Weapons Profile. RAW would be the Missile Launcher is always a Heavy Weapon regardless of how it shoots and the Art of Destruction affects Heavy Weapons.

 

RAW would be the Missile Launcher still benefits.

 

RAI would be that when the Missile Launcher behaves as an Assault Weapon, it is no longer a Heavy Weapon and therefore would not benefit from Art of Destruction.

 

But nowhere is it written that the Missile Launcher ever stops being a Heavy Weapon.

 

At least, that's my understanding.

[Lucien Eilam]

The weapon profile is the only thing that defines what a weapon is. You're trying to combine a lore definition with a rules definition. Assault and heavy are mutual exclusive. If you're firing it as one, you aren't firing it as the other,

 

If they wanted it to remain heavy, they should have made the suspensor web give the model Relentless. They didn't, they made it change the weapon type.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, I admit ignorance in rules areas.

 

So basically, just to make sure I am understanding correctly, the Missile Launcher is only a Heavy Weapon so long as its profile says it fires like a Heavy Weapon. But the moment it uses the Suspensor Web to fire like an Assault Weapon, it becomes an Assault Weapon until you choose to not use the Suspensor Web, which then changes it back to a Heavy Weapon. Which would be why Art of Destruction only affects it while the Suspensor Web is not being used. Correct?

[Vardus]

That's the way I read it Kol.

[WarSpirit]

After reading Lucien's argument and rereading the affected rules i stand corrected and range myself to his argument. You can still benefit from the AoD rule but only when firing as a heavy weapon.

[depthcharge12]

Thats what I was trying to get at.

 

If the model moves, it is still a heavy weapon, but shoots with the Assault profile. The rule says heavy weapons benefit from it, it doesn't say weapons with the Heavy profile (not capitalized, therefore the confusion, possibly just an typo error).

 

 

I might send something to FW but I am to busy at the moment or too unfamiliar to ask.

[Kol Saresk]

If its okay, I went ahead and took the liberty of firing off the OP to Forgeworld. I'll post the response when it comes in.

[depthcharge12]

If its okay, I went ahead and took the liberty of firing off the OP to Forgeworld. I'll post the response when it comes in.

Thank you friendly neighborhood night lord! You help keep justice around these lawless places!!!

[hisdudeness]

Only problem is that it never changes the profile. It's always a heavy weapon but can be fired at half range and the model can still assault "as if it were an assault weapon". No where' are we told to change the profile.

[depthcharge12]

Only problem is that it never changes the profile. It's always a heavy weapon but can be fired at half range and the model can still assault "as if it were an assault weapon". No where's are we told to change the profile.

 

Yes I would agree with that, but:

 

 

The example below the suspensor web says: "For'ex a heavy bolter has a Heavy 3 profile, but a heavy bolter using a suspensor web may opt to shoot it as an Assault 3 profile with half range if wanted"

 

 

gonna double check the exact wording in betrayal, I paraphrased it, but the detail is all in the wording

[Vazzy]

Look at the suspensor web rule, specifically the italics, it states "...can be used as if it was 18" assault 3..."

 

Seems clear cut to me. It's still a heavy weapon, thus still benefits. 

Gunna quote this. The section in quotes is the exact wording. No where does it say it becomes an assault weapon. It just fires as an assault weapon would. 

[Adra'Melek]

Interesting one. What is the definition of a heavy weapon other one with Heavy in the type? And if it is firing as though it's an Assault weapon it, by definition, is not firing as a Heavy weapon.

[Angrypantz]

I think what forge world was aiming for was applying a penalty for marines using suspension webs otherwise it would straight out say they have relentless.  Since the text in Betrayal indicates that the heavy weapon (heavy bolter in the example) may either fire its full range and operate as a standard heavy weapon with full range and penalties or it may opt to act as if it were an assault weapon but have an effect range half its normal.  It's just a balancing mechanism.  

 

Therefore it would be perfectly acceptable for a unit with suspension webs to benefit from the Art of Destruction special rule.  For me this looks pretty clear cut.  

[hisdudeness]

Same here. Normally when there is a profile change it is pretty clear. I believe the "as it was" line is there as an example of how to play the exception to the normal rules.

[Adra'Melek]

But does firing as if it's an Assault Weapon include not firing as a Heavy Weapon? I don't know and I'm not fussed either way. I'd prefer to go by RAI (or what makes sense) and I 'think' (after re-reading the bumph not rules for Art of Destruction) it makes sense to allow it for Webs. Let's hope they back to Kol and clear it up.