Facebook page for Chaos letter Campaign

[daboarder]

That bold scripted word was too subtle huh

Apparently yes......fair enough.

 

 

I cannot think of a single thing that they would stick in a supplement (given what we know of supplements so far) that would desuckify the Thousand Sons.

They are expensive, have no weapon options, and their sorcerer is only ML1 and stuck with the Tzeentch power.  

 

The biggest change I think a supplement has laid out has been Abaddon's super terminators, and that was paying points for WS and BS, nothing nearly as drastic as what making 1k Sons good would require.

You mean the only thing Black legion added. Iyanden and farsight did so much more, from spirit councils to the eight...

[daveNYC]

Thousand Sons already exist as a bad unit.  You'd need to have the supplement do a massive rewrite of them for them to be good (or even fun, IMO).  That's not even getting into what would need doing to get 1k Son style units into the other FOC slots.

[King Jackal]

I cannot think of a single thing that they would stick in a supplement (given what we know of supplements so far) that would desuckify the Thousand Sons.

They are expensive, have no weapon options, and their sorcerer is only ML1 and stuck with the Tzeentch power.  

 

The biggest change I think a supplement has laid out has been Abaddon's super terminators, and that was paying points for WS and BS, nothing nearly as drastic as what making 1k Sons good would require.

 

Absolutely no rudeness or ego intended, but that may be from a lack of imagination? 

Something that improves MoT 'Deny the Witch'

Something that negates or weakens enemy DtW

Better psychic options with a modicum of control

Brotherhood of Psycher Cultists(that randomly sprout into Spawn) with attached Thrall Wizards or Sacrificial Cultists

Flamer and Template rules for MoT marked units

Wargear that ignores LoS rules

FnP saves

Obliterators with different weaponry options instead of/as well as +1 Invul

Rubicae Termis

[Hellios]

I must be the only person getting around that didn't predict CSM to be characterised by a mechdragon

 

 

It's my belief that we will become more competitive and enjoyable as time goes on without the need to petition or facebook GW. (again draven, i support your initiative 100%) 

It really depends on how the meta changes... and what supplements we get... and how you define competitive. I doubt we will be top tier without a really good (or broken) supplement... or some weird abuse of the allies system.

- I believe we will receive more supplements than nearly any other faction. 

I think CSM merit more supplements than any other faction. In theory you could argue the space marines do... However I feel a lot of the chapters are a lot less divergent from the codex than the legions are from the generic CSM list. If all the legions get a supplement I don't care if 50 chapters get a supplement. Eldar and Orks are looking at less than 9 big craftworlds/clans each. IG could be limitless... but I'm not sure how popular the metal minis are... So would they release supplements for them? I could easily see Cadian shock troops getting one... and Catachans certainly could be made into an interesting divergent guard list. Tau don't have that many natural existing factions to work with... The same goes with chapters that have their own codices... although we could end up with Space Wolf Great Company supplements.... XD

 

So yeah... I think you might be right there.

- I believe that there will be fair representations of tactics that will be better thought out than 3.5 and options to make warbands a lot more characterful. 

A fair representation of various tactics? Better thought out than 3.5? Now I doubt support 3.5 legion rules as being anywhere near accurate for some legions... but I still think you are being optimistic if you think GW is going to put any kind of thought into some electronic supplement... they only make half-assed attempts with half of the codices.

- I believe units deemed unusable by competitive wisdom will come into their own with the right supplement and the right options/combinations.

Yes... because conventional wisdom is based on the current rules... That changes with every codex released... The Heldrake for example isn't seen to be as good as it once was, and all the changes/FAQs to it have made it stronger. So yeah some units could become better... Other units might become worse... and this still doesn't mean we will have a balanced or a competitive list. 

 

 

Most Chaos players haven't lost their minds... They just expect to be shafted; just as they have been since the 4th codex. And considering how we don't think the 3.5 codex before that was great... That says something about Chaos.... I still say that the 3.5 dex was the best of the newer codices... and you have to go back to things like Slaves to Darkness to find better stuff.

 

I hope your optimism is well placed... but you won't find me holding my breath.

 

[Hellios]

 

I cannot think of a single thing that they would stick in a supplement (given what we know of supplements so far) that would desuckify the Thousand Sons.

They are expensive, have no weapon options, and their sorcerer is only ML1 and stuck with the Tzeentch power.  

 

The biggest change I think a supplement has laid out has been Abaddon's super terminators, and that was paying points for WS and BS, nothing nearly as drastic as what making 1k Sons good would require.

 

Absolutely no rudeness or ego intended, but that may be from a lack of imagination? 

Something that improves MoT 'Deny the Witch'

Something that negates or weakens enemy DtW

Better psychic options with a modicum of control

Brotherhood of Psycher Cultists(that randomly sprout into Spawn) with attached Thrall Wizards or Sacrificial Cultists

Flamer and Template rules for MoT marked units

Wargear that ignores LoS rules

FnP saves

Obliterators with different weaponry options instead of/as well as +1 Invul

Rubicae Termis

 

It isn't that he can't imagine those things. It is that most of those either wouldn't help 1ksons much, or would involve more work than we have seen so far... I guess the most work we have seen would be the 8 in the Farsight enclave.

 

I wouldn't mind those cultists just for giggles... As the two chaos lists I tend to play are 1ksons, and tide of filth (Cultists, spawn, FW Giant spawn and so on)... I'm not sure that they would make pure 1Ksons work as an army. Unless they spawned really easily and didn't cost much more than normal cultists.

 

Hey.... enjoy the 30 spawn I just made! (I already have a load of spawn from the old boon/gift of chaos days)...

 

Rubrics terminators wouldn't help the 1Ksons with their weaknesses... but we would appreciate them... Especially if they are willing to give them a 3++ (but that might be dreaming)... or 2Ws... I guess it comes down to price...

 

FNP saves feels like we are stepping into the realm of Noise Marines, or Plague Marines.... Hey wait! Didn't FNP start off as a special rule for Berzerkers? Maybe it is our time to have FNP.... XD

 

Flamer/Template rules... very vague... Although I wouldn't mind rules that turned the Heldrake into a Firelord or one of the other Tzeentch Flyers from Epic... but I don't see how you could change the Baledrake without making it worse or making everyone cry.

 

So yeah... the most reasonable suggestion there is to make the psykers (or their powers) better. Not holding my breath.

[King Jackal]

Thank's for your well thought replies Hellios.

 

In regards to the supplements, it's my thought pattern that if there is a significant difference in warfare style than a supplement should be used to represent this, IG should get a sizable book with their own spin on 'chapter tactics' for all but the most extreme cases, which could be covered in supplements. 

 

 

I know I am being fairly optimistic and with our track record I won't be surprised if my hopes equate to nothing, but I have to believe that they are going to have a decent crack or I don't know if I can continue to support 40k or GW for that matter, not that it would mean much.

 

There's an argument for all the cult troops to have a FNP in my opinion, in terms of a standard Rubric marine, maybe something along the lines of FNP against everything but incoming witchfire. 

 

I was thinking everything with flamer options BAR heldrakes in terms of the flamer rules. (but the Firelord or Doom Wing heldrake change over could be pretty cool(if handled correctly))

Cultist flamers that torrent? Helbrutes that can warp blobs of low Ld infantry into horrors - I dunno, just spit balling.

[Dravenguild]

We got some lengthy discussion and interesting letters coming to fruition, check it out!

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/chaosrises/

[Brother Aiwass]

I can't see the page because I have no FB account. And no, I'm not getting one, ever. Not even for the Chaos Gods, but if could make the page public... :)

[Sception]

I can't see the page because I have no FB account. And no, I'm not getting one, ever. Not even for the Chaos Gods, but if could make the page public...

This. I'm not playing the facebook game for this. Just no. Ugh. Yuck. No.

[Vesper]

Pretty much the same here. Make that stuff public, there's no point on keeping that stuff private.

[the jeske]

How many people supported this?

[Iron_Within]

currently 26 people are writing

[Brother Aiwass]

Until Draven makes the page public, can anyone bring here relevant parts of the disscussion? Please?

[Dravenguild]

*edit*

 

I tested it out, apparently ya'll are correct. I logged out to try and view the page publicly and facebook won't allow it.

 

Well the gist is we've got 4 fantastic letters in the pipeline echoing much of the discussion in the complaint thread, a troll among us, a date in which to send the letters (January 5th) and discussion on how certain things could be improved without stepping on too many toes.

 

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone without an account can't see it.

[Dammeron]

Okay guys; this is how my letter is currently shaping up: it's still very rough and requires a little refining. All constructive comments/criticisms welcome. If anyone would like to use this as a basic template, please feel free. I'll post up a more coherent and complete version when I get round to refining it:

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

I have been a customer of Games Workshop's products for some years, specifically the Warhammer 40,000 table top war game. However, I find myself somewhat perturbed by the company's recent output, particularly concerning the Chaos Space Marine range of products which I have generally enjoyed up until this point.

The issues started to become noticeable through the publication of what is generally considered the “4.0” Chaos Space Marine codex, which proved highly contentious for its stripping away of the various complexities and details that made the previous codex highly engaging but somewhat unwieldy. Though I agree that the “3.5” codex required refining to make it more balanced and workable, the wholesale abandonment and tearing out of elements that leant the Chaos Space Marines dynamism and character proved generally corrosive to the force's popularity, and led to the first total hiatus from the hobby I and many others have ever taken. A cursory evaluation of certain popular Warhammer 40,000 internet forums will provide ample evidence of how unpopular this product proved amongst Chaos players: said forums were all but inundated with threads of highly incisive critiques, home grown rules and general expressions of dissatisfaction. At this point I would like to make clear that the vast majority of complaints did not concern the power level of the codex or the ability to create workable army lists: such was entirely possible. However, doing so necessarily required the inclusion of certain ubiquitous units and the abandonment of others that simply failed to function owing to a lack of consideration and play testing in terms of rules design. This led to extremely flavourless, “cookie cutter” army lists and meant that all of the theme and flavour that defined previous codicies had been lost entirely. Furthermore, it was no longer possible to theme one's army with regards to the ethos of a particular traitor legion, which proved highly contentious amongst Chaos Space Marine players.

The early announcement of the sixth edition codex drew me back to the hobby and rekindled my passion for modelling and gaming. I have, however, found my new-found enthusiasm to be short lived, owing once again to a general lack of quality and coherence within the publication itself. Though numerous new options and special rules have been introduced, the sixth edition codex is sadly based upon the previous effort, and maintains all of the foundational problems that the previous codex had, along with a host of new ones:

Most of the new units (such as Warp Talons, Dark Apostles, Mutilators etc) are so situational in terms of potential application they are immediately discounted from even casually competitive lists. They also universally demonstrate highly prohibitive points costs that are inconsistent with units from both the Chaos and other codicies that are ostensibly designed to perform similar functions but do so much more competently. As an example, compare Warp Talons with basic Raptors or Chaos Bikers: both of the latter fulfil similar functions of shock assault and occupy Fast Attack slots on the Force Organisation Chart. However, Warp Talons, which initially look intriguing on paper, tend to flounder and flail in comparison to the other two, lacking the flexibility and equipment (most notably grenades) in order to perform outside of a role in which they do not excel. Their prohibitive points cost and Warp Flame Strike special rule (which simply does not work as currently implemented) leaves them as a stark example of how little consideration has been put into both this unit and myriad other examples throughout the codex. On the other hand, we have units such as the Heldrake, which is so destructive in application it actively changes the nature of the game, and reduces Chaos Space Marine armies to little more than delivery systems for the daemon engines. This lack of coherence, synergy and internal balance is endemic within the codex, both in terms of unit to unit comparison and also with regards to army wide options and special rules:

The Champion of Chaos rule, which is excellent in terms of concept and highly characterful, is sadly ill considered and deleterious to active play in application: though Chaos characters are forced into delivering and accepting challenges, there is nothing that provides them any particular benefit within that situation, meaning that most are simply mowed down by eminently superior equivalents from more technically apt army lists. Even when Chaos characters win their duels, rules which are supposed to be of benefit to them and the Chaos player often prove to be deleterious: devolution into Chaos Spawn and even the ostensibly beneficial option of apotheosis to daemon-hood often do not serve to benefit the Chaos player, especially in the latter's case when it applies to a sorcerer or chaos lord who is bafflingly more effective in his mortal form than his daemonic.

With regards to army wide problems, arguably the most significant (and those which demonstrate the profound lack of time and consideration put into the product) derive from leadership and delivery: though clearly designed as an assault based army for the most part, Chaos Space Marines bafflingly lack the likes of drop pods and/or precision teleportation in order to get key units close to the enemy. This effectively neutralises certain choices (Chosen, Khorne Berserkers, Possessed, Helbrutes) whilst making others (Obliterators, Maulerfiends, Terminators) automatic takes in any half way competitive force. Again, I would hasten to add that this is not an argument for Chaos Space Marines to have every advantage that their loyalist counterparts have and more: rather it is a call for some degree of consideration to be implemented in terms of how Chaos Space Marines function as an army and how that could be implemented effectively and distinctly in table top terms. For my part, I would suggest making Chaos Space Marines extremely aggressive in terms of their transport capabilities but not very precise: a rule allowing Chaos Space Marine units that deep strike to assault directly after deep striking would fix any number of problems for both the codex as a whole not to mention individual units (units such as Warp Talons and Mutilators would become immediately viable, whereas currently they are so prohibitive and difficult to apply most Chaos players throw them by the wayside in favour of eminently more effective
options).

One of the consistent issues regarding Chaos Space Marine forces is the ability (or lack thereof) to field distinct, characterful forces redolent of the individual player's particular traitor legion or warband without becoming so compromised said forces become near enough unplayable in any competitive environment. Sadly, the current codex does little to solve this problem, despite the myriad suggestions for doing so one might find via a simple internet search since the last codex made its debut: armies such as the Thousand Sons, World Eaters, Night Lords and Alpha Legion stand at a distinct disadvantage as it currently stands owing to the general weakness or lack of application in their core units and lack or army wide synergy. The Thousand Sons in particular seem to have been given typically short shrift in this regard, as the core unit is so expensive in terms of points and so poorly conceived in terms of rules it stands as a pronounced liability in comparison to more mundane but more synergistic and adaptable equivalents. This is particularly galling given the recent release of Codex: Space Marines, a book which includes distinct, workable rules for adapting the core army list to make it redolent of certain loyalist chapters,all of which are far more coherent, workable and synergistic than their Chaos equivalents. Sadly, the concurrent release of the Black Legion supplement failed to provide any solutions for the above problems, simply compounding and emphasising the problems with the core codex.

Internal inconsistency and lack of balance aside, releases such as Codex: Eldar, Codex: Tau and especially Codex: Space Marines have demonstrated what can be done when some degree of consideration and passion is put into a codex product: the Space Marine codex in particular is a superb example of how army books in general should be done, setting a benchmark for future products. It also demonstrates quite ably how a single army list can be adapted via a simple, in built mechanic to create various, viable forces on the tabletop, redolent of whatever character or tradition the player wishes to evoke. This sadly helps to demonstrate just how rushed and ill considered the writing of Codex: Chaos Space Marines was as, despite access to a variety of units and upgrades, there are only a handful of viable or even functional army builds within the codex. Playing a Thousand Sons force, for example, compromises the player so utterly in terms of the foundations of their army, it is actually impossible to field the force in any half way competitive environment. Even in casual games, an army comprised primarily of Thousand Sons will struggle against lists comprised from better codicies. This should not nor should ever be the case: armies should ideally demonstrate particular in built strengths and weaknesses that players exploit on a tactical and strategic level.

As it currently stands, one can take Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Codex: Space Marines and provide examination on both an army wide and unit by unit basis, demonstrating how the latter is simply superior in terms of army wide synergy and focus as well as in terms of unit by unit functionality:

Space Marine Chapter Masters are vastly superior to Chaos Lords in terms of statistics, special rules and access to equipment. They also have access to honour guard retinues which are a highly elite unit whereas Chaos Space Marine characters get no retinue options at all.

Chaplains are directly comparable to Dark Apostles, save that the former has access to a wider variety of wargear, making him more survivable, transportable and augmenting his utility in the wider army above and beyond his Chaos Space Marine equivalent.

Masters of the Forge and Techmarines have access to a wider variety of equipment, greater numbers, retinues of Servitors and demonstrate special rules which adapt the existing army list, allowing it to be far more mutable. Warpsmiths, by comparison, are simply a lack lustre equivalent with most of the options and special rules removed.

 

Librarians, though lacking access to the higher Mastery level of their Chaos Sorcerer equivalents, have access to better psychic disciplines, whereas Chaos Sorcerers are actually hamstrung if they wish to take a Mark of Chaos, as the Chaos specific psychic disciplines are entirely lack lustre in comparison to the generic disciplines that Librarians have access to. This includes Tzeentch marked sorcerers, whose psychic discipline is bafflingly the most lacking in terms of utility and who get no benefit or boost in psychic potential despite being marked by the God of magic himself. The fact they do not have access to the Divination discipline is a ridiculous oversight, given that, in the background, foresight and prescience are one of the chief and principle gifts provided by Tzeentch to his followers.

 

Basic Space Marine tactical squads are a more solid and, thanks to Chapter Tactics, variable backbone for a Space Marine force than Chaos Space Marines are for a Chaos Space Marine force. Whereas all Chapter Tactics available (for free, one might add) to the former have use and application, many of the options available to the latter (often for exorbitant points costs) have no use whatsoever (The Mark of Tzeentch, The Icon of Flame, The Icon of Despair etc). Furthermore, Tactical squads have greater staying power owing to their morale boosting special rules and are infinitely more deployable thanks to VIABLE transport options such as drop pods etc.

At this time, any involvement I have with the Warhammer 40,000 hobby is on indefinite hiatus: I see no reason why I should spend money on a hobby that is failing to provide products of standard and quality. Until such time as the army of my choice is brought up to standard, this situation will sadly sustain. I would be happy to pay full price for an updated and revised codex, especially if it addresses the issues highlighted above: even a digital download or White Dwarf addendum would suffice.

I have included my copy of Codex: Chaos Space Marines with this letter, as I have no use for a product that is so unsatisfactory.

With deepest sincerity and regret,

Dammeron.

[plasmaspam]

Mate - this is a heartfelt letter, agree with practically everything you've written, but it is very long.

 

If you can redraft it to be half the length but maintain the same focus on the points you've raised, I think it'll make an impact.

 

 

I have included my copy of Codex: Chaos Space Marines with this letter, as I have no use for a product that is so unsatisfactory.

With deepest sincerity and regret

 

This says it all as far as I'm concerned.

[Kythnos]

 

Mate - this is a heartfelt letter, agree with practically everything you've written, but it is very long.

 

If you can redraft it to be half the length but maintain the same focus on the points you've raised, I think it'll make an impact.

 

I wouldn't do that - I think the lenght and level of detail is the strong point of this letter. It's easy to throw away a one page letter, but seeing as someone put a lot of effort into writing an expanded and precise letter, I'd be more inclined to give it its due, if I were to receive it.

[Brother Aiwass]

Dammeron, superb letter.

 

Agreed with Kythnos, you shouldn't reduce the lenght of it.

[Valaskjalf]

In order to say everything the way you did but without reducing its length maybe edit it in a more bullet-point form? More Headings and Sub Headings could easily make it feel less like paragraph after paragraph of complaints? Just simple resutrcturing could work and you can keep it the length it is?

[Iron_Within]

Dammeron I really like the letter, as constructive criticism, I would reduce the references to 'competitive wargaming' as GW as a company seem to be moving away from this direction anyways so would fall more on deaf ears. Perhaps tailoring the letter a little more towards the whole 'forging a narrative' schtick? It can be used along with competitive gaming (what's the point in playing the villain if every build you make will lead to an inevitable defeat?)

[daboarder]

If you're really enclosing your copy of the codex then I'd include a demand for a refund due to it being an unsatisfactory product (don't know about the UK but this is allowed to a certain extent in Aus), otherwise they aren't going to care as you have already bought it.

[Iron_Within]

I'd certainly agree with Daboarder on this. We have statutory rights yes, which basically says that you have the right to a refund if you purchase a product or service which is not of a satisfactory standard. The caveat to this is you should return it within a 'reasonable amount of time' and need proof of purchase, which is generally about 14 days and having a receipt. Larger companies will take refunds for longer amounts of time especially when it's their own product. They might not refund, but as a statement it forces them more to make a response rather than simply ignore you as you could argue by not responding they are breaching your statutory rights

[Brother Aiwass]

I don't think he want his money back, but a dramatic effect: "hey, you've lost a long time customer, good bye".

[Iron_Within]

I know that Max, but GW have a legacy of not replying to customer complaints when it's about rules so asking for a refund would force a response.

[daboarder]

even if its just a "this is outside the standard time available for a refund, if you have anything further take it up with fair trading" it means that you at least KNOW the letter has been read by someone.