Cthonia vs. Nostramo/Horus vs. Curze

[b1soul]

Cthonia sounds even worse than Nostramo. Both are gang-dominated worlds, but whereas Nostramo is more of a conventional hive world, Cthonia sounds more like a feral world.

 

Nostraman gangs sound more like mafia families. More civilised and at home in the middle and upper levels of a hive city.

Cthonian gangs are more like barbaric tribes fighting for survival in the vast network of mining shafts fallen into disuse.

 

How is it then that Horus is mentally healthier than Curze? I suppose Horus spent much less time on Cthonia and just had a naturally more balanced psyche?

[Hyaenidae]

The definition of a gang is pretty loose. My buddy, his friend, and I are chilling outside of a 7-11, taa daa, we're a gang.

 

I think it may come down to respect, and cultural constraints. The Cthonian gangs may have had a more warrior like culture to their gangs, thus a modicum of respect earned through blood spilled.

 

Nostromo, though, seems to me more like monsters running through the streets, control held only by the slimmest edges (gang-run 'protection'), if at times at all.

[FunkyMonkey]

Yeah, the impression I got was that Cthonia gangs are more of the underhive scum type whereas Nostramo is just debased people in general.  It's odd though, because Nostramo seems to be just a planet of degenerate morals, whereas in Cthonia, there are morals, but they are forced to be compromised or ignored because of the daily struggle of living in the underhives.  In many ways, the underhives are just as dangerous as the feral worlds, and I think that's one of the many parts of the grimdarkness brought by the Warhammer 40K experience.  As for which environment creates the more vicious killer, I'd put my money on Cthonia.  I'd say Nostramo creates the more vile killers, though.

 

But as for why Horus seems to be more mentally stable, I think there is some accounts that Horus was found relatively early in life by the Emperor.  I don't know if that's still true, because it seems to be old lore, though.

[Greyall]

Cthonia is all about gangs, as far as I'm aware, while Nostramo deals with crime lords pulling the strings and triggers - a bit like Gotham, I think. Horus' homeworld starts to very loosely resemble a warrior culture, but they were known to be incredibly cruel, far and beyond what they needed for sheer survival.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Horus also had someone to raise him, where Kurze was basically a feral animal living in the dark.

[Greyall]

Aye, even Curze's black-and-white morality screams of animalistic absolutes.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Exactly. Grey areas are a human invention.

[b1soul]

Yeah, the impression I got was that Cthonia gangs are more of the underhive scum type

 

 

Yes, this is the impression I got too, feral feuding cutthroat barbarians

 

...however, the impression I got of Nostraman gangs is different. The Nostraman gangs seem to be more sophisticated crime syndicates operating in a relatively developed urban environment (as opposed to dilapidated mineshafts).

 

Tattoos signify gang affiliation, Talos grew up in an apartment, and there seem to be bosses, captains, soldiers etc. Nostraman gangs are quite mafia-like, and definitely not just feral savages running amok on the streets. Cthonian gangs could probably be more accurately described as criminal gangs that have devolved into feral tribes.

 

Gangs imply that there's some sort of civil society with laws and law enforcement. Gangs would be the underworld. After Cthonia was stripped bare of mineral resources, civilised society pretty much crumbled and these gangs basically became the norm (with no higher authourity trying to suppress them)

[Kol Saresk]

Well Nostramo did have its own honor code and customs. But it was also very cutthroat. For example, the Sinner's Red. If you failed your family/gang, your hands were tattooed red by your family/gang so all would know you're living on borrowed time. But if you were to turn around and kill said family/gang before your hands were tattooed, it was no big deal.

 

If you and Little Johnny had grown up together and Johnny had become a lead member of a gang but you didn't agree with him, a murder duel later and you'd be in charge at the cost of your brother's life.

 

Ultimately, I'd say that Nostramo is the pinnacle of "Survival of the fittest" gone wrong.

[Balthamal]

I think it's Iacton Qruze who comments that on Cthonia the gangers were brothers with each other but there was also brotherhood between the gangs they fought too implying a strong respect.

 

With Nostromo there does exist that respect but only in terms of the strongest having the power to subdue others and take what they want when they want it.

 

The main difference really is that on Nostromo there is the very privileged few standing atop the spires and ruling the gangs below whilst on Cthonia they're all down in the dirt and the blood fighting it out, for them the only way to prosper is for their gang to prosper as well. On Nostromo, individuals want to see the gang prosper but only to the extent that it will be all that more powerful when they try to take it over and rule themselves 

[Greyall]

That's a slippery road, 'fittest' is a very subjective term, but I guess I agree with you there. It's a world of doing what must be done, and where survival and success are very much alike.

 

More 'independent' accounts on Cthonia don't paint such a romanticized version of life on the planet. It was a butcher's life.

[b1soul]

Nostramo is more Gotham

Cthonia is more Mad Max

[SpecialIssue]

Haven't read the newest interpretations of the Night Lords, but Nostramo reeks of madness. Those at the top of the black spires are mad with power, sadistic abusers of authority, back-stabbers, blackmailers and manipulators. On the dark streets prowl predators: sadists and psycho serial-killers, rapists and ruthless con-men and connivers. Without the feelings of honour, respect and belonging that bind many illegal organisations, Nostramo is instead barely held in a coherent structure through a hierarchy of fear. Gotham x40,000.

 

Cthonia is on contrast a bog-standard feral/post-collapse society, with tribal groupings and social organisations merely taking a more 'urban' aspect. Its not mad like Nostramo.

[Greyall]

Well, that's true to some extent. While butchery is the norm on Cthonia, Nostramo's crime spree prefers the shadows, so it's much more nerve-wracking.

[Wade Garrett]

Cthonia breeds Conans.

 

Nostromo creates Hannibal Lecters.

[Greyall]

Wasn't Conan a pretty noble and honourable guy?

[Wade Garrett]

Wasn't Conan a pretty noble and honourable guy?

 

For a given value of "honor" and "nobility", maybe.

 

He was also a thief, raider chieftan, and pirate who was a strong believer in might makes right. Which I suppose is a fairly attractive philosophy if you're one of the mighty.

[Greyall]

Haha, well said =)

 

I just have a hard time linking Cthonians with the honourable tribesman troupe. My guess is someone like Loken must've been one in a million locals to come out a decent guy. I mean, some of the characters of the Luna Wolves are just borderline psychos.

[Conn Eremon]

Cthonia provides the Marcones.

 

Nostramo provides the de-supernaturalized (Hey, if Shakespeare can make up words, I can) Red Court.

[Kol Saresk]

Nostramo provides the de-supernaturalized (Hey, if Shakespeare can make up words, I can) Red Court.

That is actually the best analogy I've heard yet. And it fits because Curze is just as crazy as the Red King.

[Brother Heinrich]

Nostramo provides the de-supernaturalized (Hey, if Shakespeare can make up words, I can) Red Court.

That is actually the best analogy I've heard yet. And it fits because Curze is just as crazy as the Red King.

What's this "Red Court"?

[Kol Saresk]

Nostramo provides the de-supernaturalized (Hey, if Shakespeare can make up words, I can) Red Court.

That is actually the best analogy I've heard yet. And it fits because Curze is just as crazy as the Red King.

What's this "Red Court"?

It's an organization of supernatural monsters from the novel series, the Dresden Files by Jim Butcher.

[Conn Eremon]

Have you ever wondered what would happen if goblinoid Blood Gods saw the Conquistadores and decided they should be one and the same for all eternity? Because Butcher did.

[Warpedpath]

I´d sugest if you have got the chance, read the part about the Sons of Horus in the HH Book One: Betrayal... there, and in other sources, you can read  that it is very unclear if Horus WAS raised on Chtonia... what could be the explanation why he is...well... more civilised than Night Haunter.... ;-)

[Kol Saresk]

That was also alluded to in Horus Rising, when Loken thought how good Horus' Cthonian accent was for someone who wasn't a native Cthonian.