Cthonia vs. Nostramo/Horus vs. Curze

[Conn Eremon]

It is unclear in historical accounts, as Betrayal was. But the opening trilogy suggested that he spent at least some time on Cthonia before being found. Loken suggests so about the accents, and then there is the vision when he is stabbed by the anathame.

[Kol Saresk]

Yep. Allusions and suggestions is all we have.

[Conn Eremon]

I don't know, I think the opening trilogy made it pretty clear. I think the whole fogginess about it is a deliberate attempt to show us how much information is being lost about the arch-traitor, and we're taking it too literally.

[Kol Saresk]

Easily true enough.

[Conn Eremon]

I just went through my Kindle with a word search for 'thoni' to get quotes. It does appear that the books made it more cloudy than I remember. 

 

 

"Though Horus had not been raised on Cthonia – uncommonly, for a primarch, he had not matured on the cradle-world of his Legion – he spoke it fluently."

 

Horus Rising, pg 185

 

I remember the bit where he is discussing how he speaks the accent of the lower grunts for the sake of charisma and thought he meant that Horus spoke more naturally like a higher class Cthonian. I was apparently wrong here.

 

Horus sat down on one of the long, cushioned couches, and waved to them with a casual flick of his hand. ‘Hard as a rock, Cthonia, hot as hell in the heart. Volcanic. We’ve all known the heat of the deep mines. We all know how the lava spurts up sometimes, without warning. It’s in us all, and it wrought us all. Hard as rock with a burning heart. . . .'

 

Horus Rising, pg 297

 

This doesn't outright state anything, but it does sound like Horus was Cthonian if not in birth than at least in nature.

 

Horus slowly traced his fingers across the whorl of painted stars until his hand met the image of the Emperor’s hand. He took his touch away and looked back at Aximand and Loken. ‘As a foundling, on Cthonia, I saw the stars very infrequently. The sky was so often thick with foundry smoke and ash, but you remember, of course.’ ‘Yes,’ said Loken. Little Horus nodded. ‘On those few nights when the stars were visible, I wondered at them. Wondered what they were and what they meant. Little, mysterious sparks of light, they had to have some purpose in being there. I wondered such things every day of my life until the Emperor came. I was not surprised when he told me how important they were.’

 

Horus Rising, pg 298

 

So Horus was on Cthonia before the Emperor found him. Earlier Horus says that the Emperor's discussion on the stars were when they first met. So when he first met the Emperor, the stars were explained to him. But he wondered about them on Cthonia. So he was on Cthonia before being found.

 

Raised on Cthonia under the black smog of the smelteries – that had been his [Horus'] home, his earliest memories a blur of confusing images and feelings. Nothing in his memory recalled this place or the awareness that must have grown within...

 

False Gods, pg 238

 

Horus was raised on Cthonia and remains his image of home.

 

We were hurled from Terra like leaves in a storm. I [Horus] came to Cthonia, Russ to Fenris, Sanguinius to Baal and the others to the worlds they were raised on.’

 

False Gods, pg 239

 

While Loken outright states that Horus was not native to Cthonia, here Horus declares that he is pretty clearly.

 

The ways of Cthonia were the reason the Emperor chose you and your brothers for the Luna Wolves.

 

Galaxy in Flames, pg 202

 

Another suggestion that Horus might not have been on Cthonia, if it's the Cthonic nature that made the Emperor base the Legion there and not the fact of their Primarch's discovery like nearly all the others.

 

 

In conclusion, I still believe that Horus is Cthonic. He landed there, he was raised there, and the Emperor found him there. But it was for a much shorter time than any other Primarch and Horus' role in the later Heresy saw so much information on him erased that anyone trying to figure anything out would find it extremely difficult and contradictory.

 

An alternative theory is that Horus was deliberately portraying himself as native to Cthonia, just like Loken suggests. So when he says he landed there, was raised there and so forth, he is being as manipulative as he was when using the Cthonic accent. Which is rather fitting with Horus.

[Wade Garrett]

Purely my opinion, but I like to think that Horus landed on Cthonia, had a few years there, and the Emperor found him when he was still a young boy. I base this mainly on his conversation with the Mournival in Horus Rising, where he talks about the Emperor giving him a child's primer on astrology when he questioned his father about the constellations.

 

Of course, as Cormac says we have no reason to ever trust that Horus is being 100% truthful when he talks about his past, what with him being a skillful politician as well as a general. But it makes the most sense to me, plus it fits with him being the Emperor's favored son.

[Conn Eremon]

I think there you and I are of one mind, Wade. It does appear to allow room for interpretation though, I will admit that now that I have gone through it. Whether that is deliberate to portray a manipulative Horus, or accidental on the part of the authors, is also open to interpretation.

[Wade Garrett]

I think there you and I are of one mind, Wade. It does appear to allow room for interpretation though, I will admit that now that I have gone through it. Whether that is deliberate to portray a manipulative Horus, or accidental on the part of the authors, is also open to interpretation.

 

And if you make the Emperor an actual father figure to young Horus it gives their final duel that mythic resonance that (IMO) is an underlying theme of the Heresy.

 

King David vs Absalom, Arthur vs Mordred, Obi Wan vs Vader, Tai Lung vs Shifu...

[Scribe]

Nostramo is more Gotham

Cthonia is more Mad Max

 

Yeah this to me.

 

Techno-Barbarians vs 20th Century industrialized society with simply no morality. Cthonia would have had centers of safety, as each tribe or whatever ruled its own. At least perhaps.

 

Nostramo however, was full on a den of scum, entire hives of dog eat dog, and human eat dog...

[Brother Heinrich]

Cthonia breeds Conans.

 

Nostromo creates Hannibal Lecters.

 

Best description ever. Especially with the new SoH releases (looking at you mkIV power Battle-Axe) this analogy really fits.

[Blacksad]

Horus wasn't a native of Cthonia, he was a native of Terra, like all primarchs. He did however spend his childhood there. however, compared to all other primarchs, he spent the least time there, 'cause the Emp found him first. Horus was the most Terran of all primarchs. and a treacherous curr.

 

His being found so early on probably helped him not going bat:cusscrazy like his brother Curze

[DuskRaider]

Nostramo provides the de-supernaturalized (Hey, if Shakespeare can make up words, I can) Red Court.

That is actually the best analogy I've heard yet. And it fits because Curze is just as crazy as the Red King.

Or the Crimson King, for that matter.

[Kol Saresk]

Nostramo provides the de-supernaturalized (Hey, if Shakespeare can make up words, I can) Red Court.

That is actually the best analogy I've heard yet. And it fits because Curze is just as crazy as the Red King.

Or the Crimson King, for that matter.

From the Dark Tower series? Nah. Doesn't fit into the genre.

[Adra'Melek]

Purely my opinion, but I like to think that Horus landed on Cthonia, had a few years there, and the Emperor found him when he was still a young boy. I base this mainly on his conversation with the Mournival in Horus Rising, where he talks about the Emperor giving him a child's primer on astrology when he questioned his father about the constellations.

 

Of course, as Cormac says we have no reason to ever trust that Horus is being 100% truthful when he talks about his past, what with him being a skillful politician as well as a general. But it makes the most sense to me, plus it fits with him being the Emperor's favored son.

It makes sense based on all we've got. Foundling there. Found early by the Emperor (how early is debatable and unknown). Turns on the "I'm one of you guys" stuff with troops (I don't think it's in a massively manipulative way, more a good leader).

[b1soul]

Haven't read the newest interpretations of the Night Lords, but Nostramo reeks of madness. Those at the top of the black spires are mad with power, sadistic abusers of authority, back-stabbers, blackmailers and manipulators. On the dark streets prowl predators: sadists and psycho serial-killers, rapists and ruthless con-men and connivers. Without the feelings of honour, respect and belonging that bind many illegal organisations, Nostramo is instead barely held in a coherent structure through a hierarchy of fear. Gotham x40,000.

 

Do you have quotes to back this up? I still don't see how Nostramo is that much worse than Cthonia, which is more post-apolcalyptic than urban

 

Talos can live with his mother in an apartment and eat canned noodles...it doesn't sound as bad as you're making it out to be, Gangs of kids can survive on the streets. 

 

Nostramo's gangs are still considered illegal, although I'm sure the authourities are corrupt and closely intertwined with organised crime. On Cthonia, tribes raiding and massacring each other in the subterranean networks is the norm.

 

Nostramo isn't any more "mad" or insane, it's more hypocritcal. There's a supposedly legitmate system being corrupted and manipulated by organised crime. On Cthonia, society has devolved into feral barbarity. There is no lawful authority. The gangs reign supreme in the aftermath of the system's collapse. Cthonia is what Nostramo would likely become if the economy completely collapsed and society crumbled.

 

I´d sugest if you have got the chance, read the part about the Sons of

Horus in the HH Book One: Betrayal... there, and in other sources, you

can read  that it is very unclear if Horus WAS raised on Chtonia... what

could be the explanation why he is...well... more civilised than Night Haunter.... ;-)

 

If Horus has no relationship with Cthonia, it would be rather odd for the Luna Wolves to recruit so heavily from that planet

 

That was also alluded to in Horus Rising, when Loken thought how good Horus' Cthonian accent was for someone who wasn't a native Cthonian.

 

If I'm not mistaken though, Loken acknowledges that Horus' odd accent is a result of his short stay on the planet. I don't think it's ever suggested that Horus never lived on Cthonia. 

 

According to Cormac's quotes, it seems that Horus spent his early years on Cthonia but didn't mature there. The Emperor probably found him when he was the equivalent of a human in early adolescence.

 

If Horus never lived on Cthonia...I really don't find it plausible for no one in the legion to be aware of that fact

 

"Native" to Cthonia might refer to being born and having matured there. Horus fails on both criteria

 

 

Nostramo is more Gotham

Cthonia is more Mad Max

 

 

Nostramo however, was full on a den of scum, entire hives of dog eat dog, and human eat dog...

 

Cthonian society was in a far more advanced stage of regression. Nostraman society was a system chronically afflicted with corruption. The system was dead on Cthonia. 

 

The information in Betrayal indicates that Cthonia had been stripped bare of resources in the ancient past...however in Horus Rising, smoke-belching foundries and smelteries are mentioned, a bit of an inconsistency if all the mineral wealth has long been exhausted.

 

In Horus Rising it seems to be more of a harsh hive/mining world, control was probably lax enough to allow gangs to flourish, but industry was still operating. In Betrayal, it's portrayed as much more post-societal collapse a la Mad Max. 

[Wade Garrett]

Talos can live with his mother in an apartment and eat canned noodles...it doesn't sound as bad as you're making it out to be, Gangs of kids can survive on the streets.  

 

You're soft soaping the home life of the Prophet quite a bit there, I think.

 

His mom was a sex slave, he and Xarl walked by beats in alleys on the way to school, and both of them where running with the gangs and shooting and stabbing people while they were still pre-teens.

[Scribe]

Agreed on Cthonian society being more regressed, thats why I see it more as a feudal system, or raiding tribes type mentality. Yes they where 'gangs' but not in the same sense as the gangs that would have been standing armies for the Nostramo elite.

 

In Cthonia, I was picturing it being a tunneled out system of resource starved nomads/towns. So more a raiding culture see: Conan.

 

In Nostramo, I picture like Wade has here. You have a reasonable system, at the surface level, only...there is no sense of morality. Your declaration of human rights really is just the paper its been printed on, and someone is using it to set someone on fire. The system is not as regressed, but its likely actually more chaotic, at least how I pictured it, where yeah you may be property, but there is little preventing your neighbor from coming over and hacking you to pieces, or eating you while...well you get the idea.

 

Its a place where you are living in insanity, there is no safety in numbers, Nostramo was stuck tearing itself apart.

[b1soul]

 

 

 

His mom was a sex slave, he and Xarl walked by beats in alleys on the way to school, and both of them where running with the gangs and shooting and stabbing people while they were still pre-teens.

All true but that wouldn't necessarily be worse than life in a ghetto district of 19th century New York City (look up Boss Tweed and Tammany Hall if you're not familiar with how corrupt and :cuss up NYC was back then).

 

OK I'm sure Nonstramo is even worse by virtue of being 40K, but Cthonia sounds just as bad if not even more unpleasant.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, looking at them, Nostramo has orphans eating the dead. Cthonia just has techno-barbarian gangs. Nostramo has produced Astartes who have reputations as murderers, rapists and thieves. Meaning that enough kids from ages 12-18 had committed at least one beat for the title of being "rapists" to have been attached to the entire Legion in general. Cthonia has gang wars that produced people like Loken and Torgaddon. Heck, even Abaddon was an honorable warrior once upon a time.

 

To be honest, Nostramo looks worse. Cthonia sounds more like a throwback to the dark ages, but without the crusades and instead of countries and knightly orders, they have gangs and territories.

 

Looking at what each world produces and the reputation each has, Cthonia is being made to look feral, but Nostramo is being made to make being a Muslim in the middle of the Crusades to look like the safest place to be. Ever.

 

I'm not saying that's the case, but from what I know, that seems to be how it's all going down.

[Wade Garrett]

I don't know how many other people have played Fallout: New Vegas, but I see the difference between Cthonia and Nostromo as being the same as that between the Fiends and the Great Khans.

[b1soul]

Agreed on Cthonian society being more regressed, thats why I see it more as a feudal system, or raiding tribes type mentality. Yes they where 'gangs' but not in the same sense as the gangs that would have been standing armies for the Nostramo elite.

 

In Cthonia, I was picturing it being a tunneled out system of resource starved nomads/towns. So more a raiding culture see: Conan.

 

I would definitely say Cthonia is more feral than feudal. Feudal is like Caliban, with knightly orders, manors/castles and the like.

 

Cthonian tribes may have been descended from the gangs and factions formed by the original miners or hivers...but by the time Horus gets there, the Cthnonian "gangs" are "gangs" in the same way the tribes of Baal and Fenris may be considered "gangs". 

[SpecialIssue]

Didn't it use to be that Nostramo's population wasn't kept under control by hunger, famine or even necessarily murder, but suicide? Wasn't it said that crime statistics indicated a beat every 10 seconds, a murder every minute?

 

That is a place that truly sounds like it would breed a Night Haunter.

[Greyall]

While I can agree that Nostramo is likely more deranged due to having a sort of 'intended normal life level' which is then defiled by the most heinous crimes, let's not forget that many of those practices weren't even crimes yet on more 'feudal' times. And from what I recall from Betrayal and other sources, Cthonia is about killers, raiders and marauders, not exactly tribes or feudalism.

 

We're looking at two ways of being psycho-killers. I can't imagine it would take much longer for a Cthonian kid to have his first kill than a Nostraman. Not to mention the probability of said kid being conceived against the mother's will.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

If Cthonia gang systems are anything like the barbarian tribes of earth, while violence is around it is likely more codified between warriors than the violence on Nostramo. Territorial control is where the rule of law and Cthonian morals hold sway, ofc once in the enemy territory anything goes.

 

Unlike Nostramo where anything goes anywhere, anytime.

[Greyall]

It's not like the barbarian tribes of Earth we read about. These men have come from/are descendents from people with a normal life who have plunged into nothingness and forced to fight and kill for whatever few resources and food remains, so their sense of 'Doing whatever is necessary' is incredibly sharpened.

 

Over time, they've begun to see killing as problem-solving 101, to the point that (I've been repeating this for a while, it's pretty much proof that they're not normal tribesmen) they organize raids to other gangs to practice killing. They could've opted for blood duels among themselves or raiding for resources. Instead, they practice killing in order for it never to become strange or hard to perform.

 

Come one, look at some of the Luna Wolves throughout the series, they aren't far behind Night Lords in terms of bloodlust, most of them are just a little more pompous.