Cthonia vs. Nostramo/Horus vs. Curze

[Reinholt]

There is also the fact that Horus, unlike Curze, is not plagued with nigh-apocalyptic versions of the future, his own death, and the death of all those around him.

 

I think if we are evaluating the relative sanity and stability of various primarchs, one has to take into account Curze's visions, which are environment independent. Obviously being on Nostromo doesn't help, but I think it is (unfortunately) likely that Curze would have been one of the more insane primarchs regardless of where he landed.

[Greyall]

Not necessarily, Sanguinius had the gift of foresight as well and he dealt with it.

 

Personality issues count, of course, but the upbringing played a heavy part in each Primarch.

 

Taking into account the 'facets of the Emperor' theory, Curze is likely to be the Emperor's retribution, free of any mercy. As a believer in said theory, that, to me, means Curze was indeed bound to have a somewhat sour existence, though not necessarily insane. But his Nostraman years provided him with too many and too extreme crimes and examples of the basest human instincts for his own good.

[Reinholt]

From what I've seen in BL, Sanguinius doesn't have the foresight problem to the same extent as Curze. Certainly, if he's seeing visions of the death of everyone around him, or a bleak, apocalyptic future that disrupts his sleep and thoughts, then it's hidden exceptionally well in all of the literature in which he is featured.

 

Which is not to say he doesn't have them, but there's a difference between occasional vs. constant that bears consideration here. For instance, Russ was certainly capable of nigh-berserker rages, but unlike Angron, it wasn't happening all the time. I'm not sure one can argue that Curze's precognition was self-inflicted or better self-regulation would have lessened the impact (though it might have).

[Greyall]

True, Sanguinius' gift isn't as keen as Curze's, but it still provides him with some disturbing images - such as the Red Angel.

[Kol Saresk]

It's not like the barbarian tribes of Earth we read about. These men have come from/are descendents from people with a normal life who have plunged into nothingness and forced to fight and kill for whatever few resources and food remains, so their sense of 'Doing whatever is necessary' is incredibly sharpened.

 

Over time, they've begun to see killing as problem-solving 101, to the point that (I've been repeating this for a while, it's pretty much proof that they're not normal tribesmen) they organize raids to other gangs to practice killing. They could've opted for blood duels among themselves or raiding for resources. Instead, they practice killing in order for it never to become strange or hard to perform.

 

Come one, look at some of the Luna Wolves throughout the series, they aren't far behind Night Lords in terms of bloodlust, most of them are just a little more pompous.

Yeah but on Cthonia, it is "Do what is necessary". There is no "necessary" factor on Nostramo.

 

But yeah, look at the Luna Wolves. They have an honor system. Some of them might be thirsty for battle, but rare is the Astartes who isn't. But Night Lords look forward to skinning pits and making blood condors. The Luna Wolves just look forward to battle. Even the 30K World Eaters are kind of "eh, do what?" by the Night Lords. Look at Khârn's(seriously, Khârn) reaction when he sees the Word Bearers torturing and sacrificing Ultramarine prisoners. I don't recall mention of the Luna Wolves doing that and the Sons of Horus didn't even try it until during the Heresy when they had gone from Warrior Lodges to Cults.

 

Cthonia might be worse than Nostramo in some degrees. Nostramo might be worse than Cthonia in others. But look at what comes out of each planet. On one hand, you get the Luna Wolves/Pre-Heresy Sons of Horus. Loken, Torgaddon, Aximand, and Pre-Heresy Abaddon. On the other, you get Nostramo. You get Sevatar, Zso Sahaal, Talos, Xarl and Mercution. The sheer quality of Astartes says something all by itself. Nostramo seems to have a more permanent effect on those it produces versus Cthonia. Longer lasting scars, so to speak. Their Astartes still think as murderers. rapists and thieves, just like how they grew up.

 

But look at the Wolves/Sons. Came from what many are considering to be a virtually exact same environment to Nostramo. And yet we get people like Loken. We get people like Torgaddon, Aximand and Abaddon. Sure, some of them were bloodthirsty. But no more so than the typical Astartes whose only desire is to crush the enemies before him in the name of the Emperor before moving on to the next Compliance.

 

The sheer quality of a Cthonian Astartes vs a Nostraman Astartes leaves much to be desired in the Nostraman. Sorry, I still Nostramo is worse. Cthonia seems to forge warriors. Nostramo only breaks. It broke a Primarch, and it broke a Legion.

[Greyall]

I agree, Kol. Fully. It is more deranged, while Cthonia is more about violence and war. I just have a hard time with it being called feudal and its inhabitants 'honourable'. What accounts we have on Cthonia paint it as a charnel house, though indeed not to the same extent (or depths) as Nostramo.

[Kol Saresk]

True. Maybe just "tribal" and maybe its inhabitants aren't honorable, but if you take the inhabitant and give him the indoctrination of the Pre-Heresy XVI Legion, he has a chance of becoming "honorable".

[Wade Garrett]

I agree, Kol. Fully. It is more deranged, while Cthonia is more about violence and war. I just have a hard time with it being called feudal and its inhabitants 'honourable'. What accounts we have on Cthonia paint it as a charnel house, though indeed not to the same extent (or depths) as Nostramo.

 

Don't think "honorable" like knights in castles and chivalry and all that. Think of something more along the lines of the Plains Tribes in North Amercia, the Celts and Gauls, the Zulu....everybody may be raiding and killing everybody else, but there is a code that governs such things. It may not be a very GOOD code, but at least the bulk of the people agree that it exists and we should maybe try to follow it if it won't handicap us that much.

 

On Nostromo, the first rule is...you don't talk about Nostromo. The second rule is, you don't talk about.....er, wait, I think I'm a bit confused here...

[Greyall]

Still think it's worse than that. I think the keyword might be 'indoctrination', but I don't know the extent of it in 30K. It certainly did little to the Night Lords.

[Kol Saresk]

Yep. I think the best we can do is to say that cthonia and Nostramo are mirrors of each other. The difference would end up being the type of Astartes that was produced.

[Greyall]

As an aside, supposedly there are a few saner Night Lords from the time Curze managed to pacify Nostramo, right? Things just went downhill after he left for the Crusade.

 

Malcharion might be one of those.

[Kol Saresk]

You'd think. But considering that even the Terrans are equal to the Nostramans, rare would be the person who didn't become a monster it seems.

[Wade Garrett]

As an aside, supposedly there are a few saner Night Lords from the time Curze managed to pacify Nostramo, right? Things just went downhill after he left for the Crusade.

 

Malcharion might be one of those.

 

Xarl mentions that Malcharion once conquered a world by skinning their king's daughter alive and broadcast her screams across the entire planet until everyone surrendered, which took about two days. (When he and Mercutian are sneaking through the Errant monastery in "Blood Reaver"). Malcharion is sane for a member of the VIII Legion, given that he isn't running amuck like Uzuas or devolving into a beast like the Bleeding Eyes, but then, VARIEL would be considered "sane for a member of the VIII Legion" as well.

[Kol Saresk]

And he has the moniker "the Flayer".

[Greyall]

Well, there go my illusions...

[Scribe]

As Curze states when remarking on the purges other legions implemented...he wouldnt even know where to start. :D

 

The Legion is a product of its recruitment pool, and the 'philosophy' of their Primarch...seemingly completely.

[Noctus Cornix]

Remember Kol, Sahaal is a Terran.

[Kol Saresk]

Oh right. But we still get Sevatar, Uzas, Cyrion, Talos, Xarl and Mercution.

[depthcharge12]

I don't know how many other people have played Fallout: New Vegas, but I see the difference between Cthonia and Nostromo as being the same as that between the Fiends and the Great Khans.

 

I always imagined the Emperor to listen to "Ain't that a kick in the head?" after he loses the primarchs :D

 

 

I also think that HH world eaters are so much like the legion in New Vegas, which is what I try to base mine off of for fluff. My Legate (praetor) is named Lanius!

[Wade Garrett]

I always imagined the Emperor to listen to "Ain't that a kick in the head?" after he loses the primarchs

I also think that HH world eaters are so much like the legion in New Vegas, which is what I try to base mine off of for fluff. My Legate (praetor) is named Lanius!

I can see Angron nodding along with Lucius's (different Lucius, EC fans) little speech about needing to able to fight with fists and blades, because guns run out of ammo and jam. Or Caesar's declaration that wars must be fought by men, not machines. Although the Hegelian dialectics would probably be a bit much for XII Primarch.

Personally I've always seen the Iron Warriors as the Legion most like the Legion...this is going to get confusing fast...there's viciousness and brutality, yes, but it's for a purpose, controlled, not simply to release one's rage (World Eaters) or to gratify secret desires (Night Lords).

[Kol Saresk]

The Night Lords' desires are secret?

[Wade Garrett]

The Night Lords' desires are secret?

Well, I assume Curze at least half edly tried to cover up the great joy he derived from torturing people to death from Dorn, Guilliman, etc before the Heresy. Given that Xarl claims the best times for the VIII Legion were after they slipped the Imperial leash and launched the Thramas Crusade.

[Greyall]

Sure they are, there's a reason they always look beneath people's skins.

[depthcharge12]

Sure they are, there's a reason they always look beneath people's skins.

 

Yeah don't judge the Night Lords superficially :P

 

you get it? because you know it means skin value, and the Night Lords skin people....huh huh how bout it?

 

 

tough crowd the lot of you are

[Greyall]

Oh, stop being so thin-skinned.