Transport options and tactics

[minigun762]

I thought we might benefit from a discussion and review of the various transports SM have access to. Discuss what works, what doesn't, when to use each one and how to choose what to take.

 

For example, I believe the HB Razorback has been replaced by the dual Storm Bolter Rhino for a cheap anti infantry transport.

[Lysere]

I thought we might benefit from a discussion and review of the various transports SM have access to. Discuss what works, what doesn't, when to use each one and how to choose what to take.

 

For example, I believe the HB Razorback has been replaced by the dual Storm Bolter Rhino for a cheap anti infantry transport.

 

Except those storm bolters aren't twin-linked, are two weapons so can only fire one at full when moving, but are a bit tougher to eliminate with weapon destroyed rolls. Also 12" less range can be a big difference.

 

Personally if you want firepower you should take a razorback as your transport. It has versatile weapon options, most of which are twin-linked, and can be taken with a lot of units. The Rhino is, in my mind, only for when a unit needs a transport but doesn't need the extra firepower the Razor brings, or just needs more room. If you want the fastest transport obviously there is the drop pod, and it can get some decent short range firepower too but it's only good at getting to one spot, while the rhino can shield the squad for small arms fire until they decide to crack it open, at which point alls fair.

 

Also dual storm bolter rhinos aren't much cheaper than the HB razor which itself will be more accurate.

[Axagoras]

Well we have 5 transport options, Landraiders, LS:storm, rhino, drop pod, and razerback. Lets do a quick rundown on them.

LS:S is for scouts only so should only be used to ferry around CC scouts or be used as a shooting platform for bolter scouts. Just expect it to go down as soon as it takes any fire.

Land raiders are our only assault vehicle so best used with assault units. Way too expensive for what it does but sometimes can surprise opponents if they don't see lots of av 14.

Razerback went up in points for the default loadout but is the same for gun upgrades so if you buy one always take a turret upgrade. TLAC and lasplas are great weapon loadouts for the vehicle and it still serves the same roll (except the default TLHB one)

And then theres drop pods and rhinos. Take rhinos for your tac squads to keep them alive longer and give them some early game mobility, especially to apply pressure to a enemy line with 18 inch movement. Take drop pods if you need to get a odd number of pods to get more men in turn 1 through drop pod assault.

[Terrified Templar]

Although the Rhino does have two firepoints which allows the unit inside to make a contribution to the Rhino's firepower while still benefitting from the protection against small arms fire.

[Lysere]

Although the Rhino does have two firepoints which allows the unit inside to make a contribution to the Rhino's firepower while still benefitting from the protection against small arms fire.

 

This is usually only helpful when not flying across the table as the models still count as moving, and moving too much means all snap shots. A Rhino can be used as a mobile bunker, but a Razorback is a mobile bunker with the option of moving units around. Also works incredibly well with shooty command squads or sternguard. Move 6", deploy squad, vaproize targets in range.

[Captain Idaho]

I quite like a solid Land Raider in the battle line. It forces opponents to deal with it in ways you can predict since AV14 is so unstoppable to conventional anti tank methods (i.e. glancing it to death or getting penetrates with numerous but weaker weapons). You can use rely on your opponents to use Melta weapons or whatever other items they usually rely upon.

 

It needs the right list of course.

 

As for other transports; Rhinos have the edge for me. Razorbacks are expensive for a vehicle that has 1 weapon at AV11.

 

As a suitable IFV, I'd rather 2 Storm Bolters on a Rhino than paying another 15pts on a Twin linked Heavy Bolter. Remember if you want a Combat squad inside you can use a Heavy bolter from the top hatch AND a bolter Marine. That's 3 HB shots and 5 bolter shots over 12". Close range you can get 6 bolter shots and 2 Snap Firing Storm Bolter shots when moving. Long range it's 3 bolter shots and 2 snap fire shots.

 

And that doesn't consider the options for a plasma gun instead of heavy bolter. ;)

 

But then I'd rather not sit back and shoot like Imperial Fists would probably do with their awesome Traits (tank hunter Devastator squads) so I'd not need the extra ranged punch of Razorbacks. I acknowledge they have a place in such lists.

[minigun762]

Coming from Chaos, utilizing the Razorback seems difficult.

 

Rhino or drop pod are cheaper options for getting from A to B, so the big lure is bringing an extra heavy weapon to the table. Problem there is AV11 isn't the most durable option but I suppose the threat of the gun might out weigh the low durability.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

My vote would be for the Rhino over the razorback if I am using normal UM tactics or any other Chapter tactics. Like TT said below.

 

 

Although the Rhino does have two firepoints which allows the unit inside to make a contribution to the Rhino's firepower while still benefitting from the protection against small arms fire.

 

 

Now if I were to use White Scar with Khan then I would take that razorback for firepower in case the small squad show up on other side of board. 

 

I use to like LR (as transport for assault terminators or mobile bunker for scouts), but it is quickly wreck against necron player I play against. :(

 

 

Side question. Is it possible to stuff a bike inside a LR since it is considered bulky and would take up two spaces?

[infornography]

Bikes cannot embark in transports.  I really REALLY wish they could.

[Kaedes Nex]

Bikes popping wheelies out of a Land Raider or falling from the sky from a Stormraven would be awesome.

[Molokai]

Born to ride baby

[DarkGuard]

Transports are transports in this edition, not mobile bunkers. Therefore, unless you're taking a Land Raider (which basically is a mobile bunker), your best bet is a Rhino or a Drop Pod. Cheap, and tends to get the job down before dying. Razorbacks, while they have a lot of damage potential, are too easy to kill, like Rhinos, but unlike Rhinos they tend to cost a lot more.

[minigun762]

Razorbacks, while they have a lot of damage potential, are too easy to kill, like Rhinos, but unlike Rhinos they tend to cost a lot more.

 

I wonder if looking at Razorbacks not as transports but as mobile guns is a better idea.

 

Compare a TLLC Razorback to a 5 man Tac squad with a LC.

 

Points = Razorback

Mobility = Razorback

Accuracy = Razorback

Scoring = Tac Squad

Durability = about the same overall

 

Seems like if you're already taking a troop choice and not including a razorback, taking one for mobile firepower is a cost effective alternative to a small 5 man squad if you don't need more scoring units.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

 

Bikes cannot embark in transports. I really REALLY wish they could.

Darn. I thought they could because of the type of unit. Why bother giving headings like bulky and very bulky then. Just say this unit can only go in this transport. done. Oh GW... anyways back to topic



@minigun
with the advant of centurions there would be no need to have a razorback as a mobile gun. The centurions can keep pace with moving army with their slow and purposeful rule unlike devastator units.

razorbacks IMO are gear for specific list (e.g. outflank transports or AV saturation). A razorback has a higher threat level than rhino as most players will take it out first before a rhino (assumption: ignoring the guys inside the transport)
rhinos are for ppl who like drive-by shooting style
drop pods are for ppl who like "in your face" approach (or as you said point A to B )

i used stormraven a couple of times and it has underperformed in games so I will not write anything about it.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

I think the utility of a Razorback depends a lot on what else you bring.  A lone Razor looks like a tank if you have no Preds, Land Raiders, etc.  If no one has first blood, it looks like a target.  Otherwise, it tends to slip down the priority list.  I think I might have liked them better in the last codex because I could use the Razor to bring a heavy weapon to a small tac squad.  Now though, it's not as important except that the Razor can shoot the heavy wepon while moving.  I admit that I bring the Razor when I want the gun and so I think of it as a light tank with transport ability that doesn't take a heavy slot.  That is also how I view a standard Land Raider (except it is a heavy tank and takes a heavy slot).  However, the two non-standard Land Raiders I see as assault vehicles (as opposed to pure transports).

 

Rhinos are what they are.  Drop pods have utility beyond just being transports - blocking LoS or lanes of movement.  The problem is that they also don't move again so they are less tolerant of changing battlefields or mistakes in deployment or even just bad scatter.

 

LSS have some very interesting abilities - they are the fastest thing we have that start on the board and let you have a speeder w/o using a FA slot.  But they depend on if you like scouts which is very limiting.  In fact, unlike other transports, they can't pick up any units excpet scouts.

 

And you all are forgetting the Stormraven.  It's no one's DEDICATED transport, but it definiately has its uses.

[Lysere]

 

Bikes cannot embark in transports. I really REALLY wish they could.

 

Darn. I thought they could because of the type of unit. Why bother giving headings like bulky and very bulky then. Just say this unit can only go in this transport. done. Oh GW... anyways back to topic

 

 

 

@minigun

with the advant of centurions there would be no need to have a razorback as a mobile gun. The centurions can keep pace with moving army with their slow and purposeful rule unlike devastator units.

 

razorbacks IMO are gear for specific list (e.g. outflank transports or AV saturation). A razorback has a higher threat level than rhino as most players will take it out first before a rhino (assumption: ignoring the guys inside the transport)

rhinos are for ppl who like drive-by shooting style

drop pods are for ppl who like "in your face" approach (or as you said point A to B )

 

i used stormraven a couple of times and it has underperformed in games so I will not write anything about it.

 

Some transports have the option of carrying bikes or jump infantry. They do however mention this in their rules, like the Stormraven can carry an assault marine squad. I think the Necron transport can carry bikes/jetbikes but not sure.

[DarkGuard]

 

Razorbacks, while they have a lot of damage potential, are too easy to kill, like Rhinos, but unlike Rhinos they tend to cost a lot more.

 

I wonder if looking at Razorbacks not as transports but as mobile guns is a better idea.

 

Compare a TLLC Razorback to a 5 man Tac squad with a LC.

 

Points = Razorback

Mobility = Razorback

Accuracy = Razorback

Scoring = Tac Squad

Durability = about the same overall

 

Seems like if you're already taking a troop choice and not including a razorback, taking one for mobile firepower is a cost effective alternative to a small 5 man squad if you don't need more scoring units.

 

Thing is, for a decent Razorback you're looking at 75pts. 20pts more gets you a dakka pred, which is more durable and has more firepower.

[minigun762]

Well the kicker for me is how often do I take a troop option without a transport.

The answer is very rarely, so I wouldn't have free DT slots to burn on Razorbacks.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

 

Thing is, for a decent Razorback you're looking at 75pts. 20pts more gets you a dakka pred, which is more durable and has more firepower.

 

And which also takes up a heavy slot.  That may matter in some cases.

[Emperors Immortals]

CT makes a real difference too, IH grants IWND on tanks which is great over a large motor pool, while WS and RG both give special consideration to unusual deployment options through the embarked units CT (stealth, outflank etc.) and even IF tank hunters can take one of my favourite units - 2 lascannon devestator squad in a drive by rhino). Thinking about it, UM would make that last one just as good.

 

In my Iron HAnds SoM list, I take three rhinos, but its in a list containing 1-2 predators (i dont take sponsons, make the points work somewhere else) and a Godhammer armed landraider which i use for anti armour and quick bolstering of the line.

 

Pods are great for disruption, but I only use 5-6 man Tac units with 2 specials (plasma or melta gun with a combi) as I dont believe in suicide sternguard - im in love with those guys having a rhino chassis.

 

Storm eagle is amazing in my BA lists, but ive not used it in an SM list yet. Even so, its load out and flexibility (drop off a VV squad with iron clad support for lulz) is impressive, but again for the points i usually choose a landraider.

 

Lastly - techamrine or not? placing a TM in a SR or LR can signifigantly increase its longevity, especially fr us Iron Hands payers.

 

 

TLDR; rhino chassis are great LoS blockers, DP are great even empty (guidance helps land them in very crowded areas) but i usually prefer to take a LR, agreeing with Cptn Idaho - even though there about 40 pts too expensive. SR is a special gunship, but slightly more fragile then a LR.

[DerekLee688]

The storm raven is also the only transport besides the drop pod that can transport a dreadnaught. However, I would enter the SR on the table empty and would use the transport option to pick up a battered squad and drop it off on an objective if all the enemy AAA is dead. Alternatively, you could redeploy a short/mid range dread if the AAA isn't too bad.

[Azash]

Razorbacks are useless for TAC squads IMO. I think 5 man marine squads are to fragile especially given the fact that anti meq is handed out like Halloween candy to every codex even our own. I like my tanks to protect my marines and fire power doesn't do that but a rhino's 10 capacity does that.

 

Especially since they are cheap in comparison to effective razorbacks. Heck you can use two rhinos to make a mobile line of site blocking wall that allows a unit to advance and fire then blocks your opponents line of site forcing to go after the empty rhino. That's easily worth 35 pts!

 

However it depends on what your strategy is. Razorbacks make great fire support for a pure gun line that then shoots out for late round objective grabbing. The rhino is better for forward mobility and lists designed around projecting power across the table. Although a stationary rhino with fire points and a marine with a heavy weapon firing does a reasonable job at impersonating a razorback.

 

Land Raiders are Land Raiders great at delivering a pay load pretty durable and they have lots of fire power for support. Good units!

 

One thing to consider is the durability of a land raider and how that has improved. Techmarines don't use a slot anymore on force org and its well worth the 50 or 75 pts to give your land raider that extra level of durability. Plus techmarines are not a bad cc character with str 8 ap 1 melee weapons. Heck an IH LR with a 50 pt tech marine is just sick. It can completely recover from an imbilized or weapon destroyed result every round or recover from two glancing hits per round. It forces your opponent to heap an inordinate amount of fire power on it every round...something in your list is not getting shot at because of that LR.

[Axagoras]

Um how are land raiders more durable, with melta and lances in every army now and all MCs are s10 there is no point to run a 250 point vehicle for it to die in 1-2 turns.

[Lysere]

Um how are land raiders more durable, with melta and lances in every army now and all MCs are s10 there is no point to run a 250 point vehicle for it to die in 1-2 turns.

While lances are an issue the other two aren't.

 

Melta has to get close thus easily dealt with by the loaded squad. S10 still needs to roll better than a 4 to scare it, and that's assuming they hit. I've had a game with a different army where I rolled against armor 14 with S10 tankhunters around 5 times, never once penned.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

I also run Dark Eldar; 5 wyches = wrecked Land Raider and if the guys inside want to come out to play that's fine by me too.

 

As far as melta getting close...  uh drop pod, speeders, attack bike, flyers, etc.  Plus, the LR is a priority target.  On the other hand it is 250 points for something that carries things other transports don't, draws a lot of fire away from other units, is a respectable tank in its own right, and can move say your terminators 12" downfield without them taking fire.  It is these capabilities, some of them unique, that are what you pay for and what the LR brings to the table in a combination that is unique.  That combination is what you pay for.