New Chapters leaving their parents

[Icewolf]

As the title imples when would a newly founded chapter leave its parent chapter, as from the crimson fists it is said that when a chapter reaches the number of marines that they did the likelyhood of survival is very low. Is more likely that a single company is split from the parent chapter which gives the new chapter a inital strength that it can survive and does not cause significant damage to the parent chapter.

 

Thoughts?

 

Icewolf

[hisdudeness]

I don't think a significant number of marines (if any) leave a parent chapter. I would think a new chapter is made from scratch from the Geneseed, not from parent chapter marines themselves. At the most I could see some of the younger leadership move over to hold positions until others of the new chapter can take over and over see training until the new chapter is at full strength.

[Veteran Sergeant]

There's no "official" fluff on this. However the consensus is that the leadership of a new Chapter comes from a cadre of veterans from an existing one.

 

However, there is no "split". A new chapter gets commissioned. The AdMech starts whipping up batches of brand new Marines from existing stocks. That cadre of veterans would join the new Chapter. The chapter they come from only gives up the Marines it sent to that cadre.

 

Founding declared.

Chapter gene heritage determined (Ultramarines, most likely, lol)

Genetic material taken from tithed stocks.

New Marines made.

Marines from existing chapter(s) assigned to be initial leadership (chapter master, captains, reclusiarch, chief libby, etc)

Armory vehicles and weapons built/procured.

New fleet built/assigned.

 

A new chapter has nothing to do with its founding chapter, in the terms of its manpower at least. Cadre Marines wouldn't be taken from a Chapter that couldn't survive the loss of those Marines. Not when there are hundreds of chapters that are closer to full strength. 

[Icewolf]

Thanks for the replies, looking back the question is poorly worded.

 

I was trying to get at more after the founding has occured etc when the chapter is still new as a new chapter is not formed of 1000 marines form the word go, it takes time to build up to that number. So initally as I understand it the new chapter effectively does not fight as a seperate entity until it has either enough marines to fight and survive or if it does fight it is only in supporting roles of its parent chapter campaigns.

 

Icewolf

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

It depends...GW has not come out with a definitive 'this is how new chapters are made' but the generally accepted way they are formed is as Veteran Sergeant states. Although, I could see a junior chapter fighting alongside their parent chapter in the early days as they get old enough to wear PA.

[hisdudeness]

Chapter size might not matter too much. Rarely is an entire chapter fielded at one time even at full strength. A new chapter could be given missions more in line with their current strength.

[Heru]

It depends...GW has not come out with a definitive 'this is how new chapters are made' but the generally accepted way they are formed is as Veteran Sergeant states. Although, I could see a junior chapter fighting alongside their parent chapter in the early days as they get old enough to wear PA.

Actually that isn't quite true.

 

 

Copy pasted from a similar thread I responded in:

It's not temporary, the only official stuff we actually have on it doesn't say anything about going the "teachers going back".

 

3rd Founding:

Founded under the command of Fafnir Rann, reputedly the most vicious of Rogal Dorn's later captains...

25th Founding:

Founded as a Chapter from 'whole cloth' which is to say without a specific named predecessor Chapter. Instead they were created from a gene-stock issue, their initial command and training structure composed of honoured warriors drawn form several Ultramarine successor Chapters.

Temporary training cadres were merely a Liber theory, and in some cases a preference of certain authors. It is still viable for use with a DIY Chapter but it's more official for the cadre to stay.

 

[Gripharius]

Considering the number of different Foundings over the vast period of time they have extended, there is room for different Chapters to have been founded different ways. 

 

But, the fluff that I have read leads me to believe that, generally, Chapters are not created piecemeal.  The point of a Founding is to establish full and complete Chapters.  It is a massive undertaking that occurs over many decades, involves entire forge-worlds, massive recources, etc. 

 

Does that mean that a new Chapter doesn't exist until the AdMech has created and implanted 1,000 gene-seeds into 1,000 recruits?  No, I don't think so. 

 

But I think the founding process is more likely geared towards producing a deployment-ready Chapter of considerable size and strength rather than just a few dozen or even a few hundred Marines that fight with their Progenitor Chapter while they wait for the rest of their own Chapter to be created.

 

The first new Marines probably spend just decades training and drilling as the Chapter is brought up to significant numbers.   Logically, this would probably include live-fire missions with their training cadre against real opponents.  It could also include being seconded to the Progenitor Chapter or brother Successor Chapters for missions.  But the training cadre would also probably want to instill a sense of unity among the new Marines and loyalty to the new Chapter, so they might keep them together and not attach them to other Chapters.

 

Its all gray area, open for lots of different scenarios.  But I think you just have to remember that the Founding of a Chapter is a huge, monolithic undertaking that involves a very long span of time, a huge investment of resources and a lot of moving parts across a big galaxy. 

 

Edit:  The training cadre "stay or return" debate has gone on for a long time. I've always leaned towards stay, but I've never seen anything thatI thought was truly decisive one way or the other.  I think it just depends.

[Icewolf]

Perhaps it is just my iterpretation of the flulff though I do appreciate that it is a grey aera.

 

I am not so sure about createing a 1000 marines at once as that would require finding 1000 suitable aspirants for every chapter of the founding which would be a massive task and whilst not impossible would seem to me to be a waste or at least an inefficient use of resources. To me it makes more sense that a number of marines are created and then do not on "active duty", for want of a better phrase, until they are at a higher strength and have established the basis of chapter. Also I was under the impression that the Admech grew the organs required for the inital founding rather than actual creation of marines.

 

Icewolf

[Disruptor_fe404]

I can't for the life of me remember where I read it, but I'm positive I've read that asking a training cadre to return to being 'mere' Sergeants in their parent Chapter to be something of a touchy issue after they've effectively been 'Captains' for a fledgling Chapter, and that most opt to stay.

[Messor]

I prefer the idea of the training cadre staying. A temporary training cadre just never fit my mindset. Griph's ideas about sum up my thoughts as well.

[Brother Tyler]

Actually, there is official lore and it allows for a variety of options.

Some Chapters appear to have a core of its officers come from a parent Chapter. These effectively leave their original Chapter and remain with the new Chapter forever. The rest of the new members will be developed from gene-seed created for the purpose of founding the new Chapter.

Other Chapters appear to create their entire membership from gene-seed created for the purpose of founding the new Chapter, but a cadre from one or more Chapters provides training until the new Chapter is ready to act on its own.

And then we have the Chapters from the 2nd Founding and the Sons of Medusa who were all split off of the 1st Founding Legions (in the case of the Sons of Medusa, they all left their Iron Hands Legion Successor Chapters and formed a new Chapter after the Moirae Schism).

The Chapters presented in the Badab War books from Forge World provide all three variations.

And with the lack of definitive answers from GW, it's possible that some other esoteric means may have been used in the creation of new Chapters, allowing players to be creative.

In the case of the OP's question/proposition, a Chapter that has been reduced to dangerously low levels would not be a likely candidate to sire a new Chapter. They would be too focused on using their available gene-seed stocks to replenish their numbers and their experienced battle-brothers would be far too valuable in sustaining an extant Chapter than to risk them on creating a fledgling Chapter. Gene-seed from stores maintained by the Adeptus Mechanicus might be used if the older Chapter didn't have a dangerously low stock available in their own stores (assuming the High Lords of Terra give them the choice, that is ).

[Gripharius]

 

I am not so sure about createing a 1000 marines at once as that would require finding 1000 suitable aspirants for every chapter of the founding which would be a massive task and whilst not impossible would seem to me to be a waste or at least an inefficient use of resources. To me it makes more sense that a number of marines are created and then do not on "active duty", for want of a better phrase, until they are at a higher strength and have established the basis of chapter. Also I was under the impression that the Admech grew the organs required for the inital founding rather than actual creation of marines.

 

I agree with what you are saying, and I think it can happen either way.  Again, I don't think there is any "official" way it happens, or that either of these options is verboten. 

 

But almost all of the fluff I have seen suggests that a Founding is a mammoth undertaking that involves huge amounts of resources and personnel being brought to bear. 

 

Consider the following from the Deathwatch Rites of Battle book:

 

 

Space Marine Chapters are not created piecemeal, but rather in groupings known as "foundings." The process by which a new founding's creation is approvied is mysterious and arcane indeed, and subject to decades or even centuries of planning.  It is only by edict of the High Lords of Terra that such a great undertaking as the creation of new Chapters can be instigated, for it requires the cooperation and mobilisation of countless divisions within the Imperium's monolithic whole.  Establishing Chapters on an individual basis is nigh impossible -- the mobilisation of such vast resources is beyond the ability of any single segment of the Imperium.  * * * snip * * *A suitable home world must be identified, which in all likelihood will provide not only a secure and defensible base of operations for the new Chapter, but a source of new recruits, too.  Such worlds might have been reported by itinerant rogue traders, and earmarked centuries before as potential Space Marine home worlds.  A degree of environmental engineering might be required, and the natives (if they are to form the basis of the Chapter's recruitment) must be studied and tested for many generations to ensure they are free of any strain of mutation that might later affect the Chapter itself.  * *  *snip * * * Existing Space Marine Chapters might also have a hand in this process, though to what degree varies greatly.  Many First Founding Chapters maintain close links with Chapters created using their own gene-seed stocks, and the Chapter Masters might have a hand in planning future foundings. * * * snip * * * Even once the (Founding) process is underway, it is likely to be at least a century before the new Chapters are ready to take the field.  In times of dire need, faster development has been attempted, but this has often resulted in disaster.

 

Considering the decades or even centuries involved in planning a Founding, and then the decades or even centuries of the Founding process itself, the training cadre probably doesn't come along until near the end of the process.  Identifying the home world and potential sources of recruits is much more likely to be the province of the Administratum, with the AdMech weighing in on the genetic purity of the natives.  The progenitor Chapter may weigh in on this, too, but seems likely they will be focused on other things, like killing bad guys and blowing up stuff.

 

There is little to suggest that creating a Chapter is a small-scale event where just a few dozen or even a couple hundred recruits are implanted at a time.  But the opposite is true: the fluff does seem to suggest that a Founding is an event of the size and nature that the AdMech would be implanting hundreds of potential recruits at a time.

 

While we see replenishing an established Chapter's losses as a smaller-scale event that involves a lot of emphasis on mentally and physically testing the aspirants before implantation, there is no reason to believe that creating a new Chapter is on a similar scale.  Rather than testing a few hundred to get a dozen potential aspirants to replish an existing Chapter, a Founding may involve testing hundreds of thousands to get a few thousand potential aspirants.  As difficult as that is to conceptualize when you think about what an individual Chapter does or the resources it can call upon, the Founding process is clearly a much, much more massive undertaking, involving resources and man-power of an entirely different scale drawn from the Administratum, the AdMech, etc.

 

None of this is to say the "smaller scale" creation is not possible, its simply to point out that full-scale Chapter creation seems more like what the fluff describes.

 

I also tend to think the massive time and resource commitment that the fluff describes regarding a Chapter means that a "temporary" training cadre is less likely than a more permanent one. 

 

[TDF]

In the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium it describes how a Chapter is formed:

A new chapter cannot be founded overnight. A single suitable gene-seed must be selected for each zygote. Zygotes are then grown in culture and implanted into human test-slaves. These test slaves must be biologically compatible and free from mutation. Test-slaves spend their entire lives bound in static experimental capsules. Although conscious they are completely immobile, serving as little more than mediums within which the various zygotes can develop. From the original slave come two progenoids, which are implanted within two more slaves, from which come four progenoids and so on. It takes about 55 years of constant reproduction to produce 1000 healthy sets of organs. These must be officially sanctioned by the Master of the Adeptus Mechanicus and then by the Emperor himself. Only the Emperor can give permission for the creation of a new chapter.

This suggests that at its founding a new Chapter will be close to full strength.

[Lysimachus]

 

This suggests that at its founding a new Chapter will be close to full strength.

    

I used to think this too Tdf, but someone pointed out to me that although it says that a new Chapter has a full thousand sets of geneseed, it doesn't state that all of them are implanted in aspirants at the same time.

 

Personally, I think they probably are implanted immediately (Griph's reasoning is good) but it doesn't actually say it.      

[Icewolf]

Thanks Gripharius I don't think I have actually seent hat quote before and that certainly changes my perspective on the foundinf of a chapter. Is uppose given this size of the Imperium and the greyness on how the Imperium operates that producing nearly 1000 marines straight off is possible but they would be just that effectively a chapter which is 1000 scouts and not a chapter of 1000 marines which is a significant difference.

 

Icewolf

[Leonaides]

ONly for 10 years, until their organs are all in and they are getting battlefield experience through that time... Maybe they are serving alongside another chapters full marines, or maybe in a similar function to IG stormtroopers...