Hammer of wrath strength question

[Wilzilla]

I was wondering if having any special rules that increase a models strength value, as in furious charge, effect the strength of the hammer of wrath hits.

 

My initial response would be no, based on the rule book wording of "unmodified strength".

 

However, the White scars chapter tactics is worded " they add 1 to their strength when resolving hammer of wrath hits".

 

If a hammer of wrath hit always uses unmodified strength then adding 1 to their strength when resolving hammer of wrath would not actually change the value from 4 to 5. Clearly that is not intended.

 

Perhaps I am over thinking the situation, but I can't seem to come to a clear resolution that solves both scenarios while keeping a rules precedent between them. Brothers lend me a hand here, so I can figure this out. Thanks again

 

Brother Will

[Grey Mage]

It affects hammer of wrath because it specifically says it does. Similarly, one can improve the base strength of the hammerer via such means as 'hammer hand' to get more strength.

 

You cannot however say 'hes got a power axe, so hell hammer of wrath at +1 strength'.

 

Atleast, thats how Ive always seen it interpreted.

[Wraith776]

That's how I see it as well, it is unmodified unless it specifically has a rule that increases the strength. And a rule in the codex always overrules something in the BRB.

[Morollan]

I'd argue that nothing modifies the S value of HoW unless it specifically says so. The rulebook is clear that only "unmodified strength" is used and the BRB FAQ says:

 

 

Q: When a model makes a Vector Strike or Hammer of Wrath, do these attacks benefit from any special rules (such as Furious Charge, Poisoned or Rending), or any weapons or other wargear it is equipped with? (p37/43)
A: No.

 

The argument that, for example, Hammerhand would work because it increases the base strength is highly dubious. Furious Charge specifically says "adds +1 to its Strength characteristic" and if that doesn't work then why would another ability that gives a "Strength bonus"?

[Gentlemanloser]

There is no specific - general any more.

 

BRB states nothing modifies HoW.

 

a Codex rule states a unit gets +1S for HoW.

 

It's page 7 again, Codex > BRB.

 

Edit: as for Hammerhand, that's a grey area/oversight.

 

Hammerhand is a Codex rule that gives +1S, and is neither a Special Rule, Weapon or Wargear.

 

It's a Psychic Power. ;)

[Morollan]

There is no specific - general any more.

BRB states nothing modifies HoW.

a Codex rule states a unit gets +1S for HoW.

It's page 7 again, Codex > BRB.

Edit: as for Hammerhand, that's a grey area/oversight.

Hammerhand is a Codex rule that gives +1S, and is neither a Special Rule, Weapon or Wargear.

It's a Psychic Power.

I agree that it's not a special rule, weapon or wargear but are you arguing that it's not a modifier, given that the description of Hammerhand says "this Strength bonus is applied before any other modifiers"?

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh it's a modifier, but it's a Codex modifier. ;)

 

While it doesn't specifically mention HoW, it doesn't need to.  Hammerhand increases the targets S for every roll, and as a Codex rule would override any BRB restrictions.

 

It's an oversight it's not covered by the BRB FAQ.  But than does the BRB FAQ take precedence over a Codex rule, or would we need a Codex FAQ to clarify it?

 

Ah, good old page 7...

 

Now if Page 7 was built about specific over general instead, it would be a different matter entirely.

[Morollan]

Rulebook says use unmodified strength. Codex provides a strength modifier. Not sure how this is a conflict or why page 7 would be relevant.

[Gentlemanloser]

Becuase Hammerhand increases your strength by 1 for every instance you use it in.

 

If the BRB tells you you can't now use it, that's a conflict.

 

And the Codex wins.

[Morollan]

Becuase Hammerhand increases your strength by 1 for every instance you use it in.

 

If the BRB tells you you can't now use it, that's a conflict.

 

And the Codex wins.

 

Still not seeing it as a conflict. How does Hammerhand increase your strength? By applying a modifier. Rulebook says not to apply any modifiers to Hammer of Wrath attacks. Not a conflict, merely an exception. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Hammerhand gives no exceptions on where it's Strength bonus applies.

 

If the BRB forces an exception for where Hammerhand doesn't apply, it is now conflicting with Hammerhand always giving you a +1S.

 

Either Hammerhand always gives you +1S, or something is conflicting with this to stop it.

 

If it's a BRB rule, then it always loses out.

 

Page 7 is far too sweeping, and that specific rule needs to be tightened up desperately...

[Morollan]

I disagree that it's a conflict but I can see where you're coming from and suspect we're not going to change our opinions.

[Gentlemanloser]

:)

 

I'd also totally disagree it was a conflict, *if* Page 7 was written so that you needed a specific rule conficlit.

 

Like if Hammerhand as a codex rule speicifcally said that it bonus could be used on Hammer of Wrath attacks, then the properly written Page 7 would kick in (much like it specifies it is applied before multilpications to stats).

 

But sadly, Page 7 isn't written tighly enough for that. :(

[dswanick]

I think you guys are over-applying pg7.
 

"it makes one additional Attack that hits automatically and is resolved at the model's unmodified Strength with an AP of -", BRB, pg.37, Hammer of Wrath

"all models in the unit (including independent characters) have + 1 Strength until the end of the Assault phase. Note that this Strength bonus is applied before any other modifiers, such as for Nemesis Daemon hammers and so forth).", C:GK, pg.25, Hammerhand

 

Hammerhand provides a strength modifier/bonus. Hammer of Wrath does not allow for strength modifiers to be applied. There is no conflict in these two rules, just as there is no conflict between Hammer of Wrath and any other modifier(Power Fist - Wargear, Furious Charge - USR, etc). You're getting the modifier(via Hammerhand), you're just not being allowed to include it in the Hammer of Wrath(it will apply to all other attacks without the "no-modifier" stipulation).

 

"they add 1 to their strength when resolving hammer of wrath hits", C:SM

 

There is conflict between this rule and Hammer of Wrath because HoW says you may not include modifiers in it and this rule says you may include it in a HoW attack. In which case Codex>BRB, pg.7.

[Wilzilla]

Thanks very much brothers. This does clear it up for me, good old pg.7

 

As to the hammerhand question, I need to side with dswanick. He quite clearly shows that there is no conflicting rules between Hammerhand and Hammer of Wrath, therefore pg.7 does not apply in that situation.