[DIY] Grey Riders Chapter

[ShasVa]

EDIT:

• Due to a mistake in my editing process, my DIY has been corrupted and ruined. I will reconstruct it soon. Hopefully, it will be of better quality than before. Some changes to look forward to:

1. ​The chapter will still have distaste for the Echlessiarchy, but with regards to outside interference rather than the organisation's very existence.
2. The chapter will have dual veneration of both the Emperor and the Omnissiah (similar to the Reclaimers chapter). This will save them from being branded heretics by that insufferable Echlessiarchy!
3. The purge idea is gone. I have replaced it with the concept of the Grey Riders redirecting their hatred instead of removing it. They also still use augments, but do so out of a sense of duty.
4. Their armoury will still be quite extensive, but it will consist of only Imperial technology. No uber-stealth suits, but they may still have a Fellglaive and a Fire Raptor.

[Quozzo]

History

The 26th founding occurred during 738M41 so the 500 year purge would not have had enough time.

500 years is not a long time, especially for a chapter to make a complete U-turn in it's beliefs. Ignoring the fact that most of the captains and sergeants would likely be from the parent chapter and would prevent such a huge change in the gene-seed from festering. That is why every marine undergoes gruelling indoctrination methods, to ensure they believe what they are told to believe, the only alternative is death.

Homeworld

If the Homeworld contains a rare pre-Imperial structure, dating back before the heresy then why aren't the AdMech studying it, if it's human, if not why hasn't it been stamped xeno tech and been blown up, along with the 10 billion poeple who may have seen it, understood it or consorted with xenos. Also why did the AdMech activate a satellite for which it's purpose is unknown and leave it. Why not study it, or blow it up.

Combat Doctrine

Why did the AdMech give the extremely new chapter clearance to use some really cool tech that not even the Ordos Xenos, specifically catered to dealing with xenos, has access to? Some of that super cool tech is even xeno in origin, heretical.

Beliefs

Disagreeing with the Ecclesiarchy would brand any chapter has heretics, coming into conflict with them would see that you are hunted down and every last marine is killed before wiping your name from the records. That last point was my opinion but the Ecclesiarchy is not a Imperial body you want to come under conflict with, ever.

Working with xenos is heretical, the Ordos Hereticus' Adepta Sororitas would be hunting you down, if they found out. The only exception really are the Ordos Xenos' militant arm the Deathwatch. The Imperium is xenophobic to the extreme, this has often caused a heated "debate" within the Deathwatch as the marines are all seconded from chapters, all of which believe xenos should perish.

Notable Chapter Members

Veteran Sergeant Maraad's suit is xenos in origin which is of course heretical. That alone would brand your chapter as traitors.

It looks like your trying to make your chapter special in every way, which is making it too far fetched. I mentioned in a previous topic of yours that if you change a chapter too much they are no longer Space Marines. Guessing by your username that you're a fan of Tau but the any chapter has not used any new weapons for over 10,000 years and that is hardly about to change overnight considering the stance the AdMech takes on the subject and the Imperiums complete lack of knowledge about anything, bordering blatent ignorance.

All the unique items weapons and technology each chapter has access to is Imperial technology because they are part of the Imperium. If you want xenos technology you need to be a xeno, or get seconded into the Deathwatch.

Making the chapter special doesn't make them so, a unique and interesting chapter character is what makes them special and what a reader likes to read. Saying they have technology bordering the Tau is not interesting but maybe how they have adapted strategies to combat their difficulty in battling more advanced races whilst still adhering to the codex by interpreting the scripts unlike any other may be a way to go.

In any case what you missing are reasons why the chapter does things in a specific way, why did the AdMech give them super cool tech, what do the AdMech gain from this allegiance. Why did the Ecclesiarchy not brand them as heretics despite clear friction between the two. Why did a sergeant think using xeno tech was a good idea and not get reprimanded. You're saying what the chapter does but not the reasons.

I hope that wasn't too harsh, take it for what it is, constructive criticism.

[ShasVa]

Not harsh at all. Appreciate the input.

 

1. Why stand at odds with the Echlessiarchy? This is due in-part to my own real-life beliefs. I'm not a fan of religion, at all (long story not for this forum). I am aware of a few First Founding chapters that don't like them much either, such as the Space Wolves and Salamanders. I would say that the Grey Riders barely tolerate them, but don't like working with them if it can be avoided.
2. What is the go with Zarkand IV's pre-Imperial defenses? Yes the "satellite network" does date back some time ago. It is definitely human in origin (think space-based defense laser batteries). The AdMech would confirm this through study and give clearance for their reactivation, but citing that great care must be taken to ensure they do not malfunction permanently, as they don't have the know-how to repair them (not even Techmaster Daelo is that smart).
3. Why make the chapter hi-tech? SImple; in order to fight back against other hi-tech races like the Tau and Necrons. And after all, they do descend from the Iron Hands, who themselves are somewhat techy. The Grey Riders also have a good relationship with the AdMech, offering to accompany them on tech-rediscovery missions in exchange for possible use of said tech in future battles.
4. Do they like xenos? Not in the way I may have originally posted. In game terms, the Grey Riders would see the Tau and Eldar as "Allies of Convenience", or "Desperate Allies", depending on the situation at hand. One of the primary directives of the Grey Riders is to use Imperial hi-tech against xenos hi-tech. This is why they are cleared by the right people to use certain things other chapters are not. As far as Maraad's armour goes, the Imperial design is based off of study of how the XV22 functions from an AdMech perspective. Game wise, it would act like an "advanced Camo Cloak" (Stealth+Shrouded when in cover, normal rules otherwise, or something similar).
5. How do they see the Inquisition, and vice versa? The Grey Riders have made both allies and enemies within all facets of this organisation. The views of the chapter have brought them to the attention of a few Radical factions, particularly the Recongregationists and the Xeno Hybris, who support the Grey Riders. Other factions, the majority of which are Puritan based, are wary of the Grey Riders having access to hi-tech armaments.
6. What is the relationship with Deathwatch? The Grey Riders and Deathwatch have been an asset to each other. Deathwatch reap the benefits of having Astartes that can combat hi-tech xenos races in their ranks. In turn, the Grey Riders gain further insight into how to fight such races, and also gain hi-tech armaments for study and analysis, and possibly Imperial re-design.

I'll be happy to answer any further questions you may have.

[FunkyMonkey]

I think the point Quozzo is making about the high tech and AdMech relationship is that with the way your chapter is currently set up, most likely your biggest enemies within the Imperium will be the AdMech.  Relationship or no relationship, the AdMech can't stand other people having tech that they don't, and the AdMech aren't going to have the technology your chapter has, even if it's only Imperial attempts at mimicry of Xenos Tech (which honestly, is going to most likely be of horrendous quality).  AdMech are notoriously intolerant of technological advancements that don't come from the rediscovery of an STC fragment.  Trying to mimic Xenos tech is straight up grounds for heresy.  Most magos who do that kind of stuff end up being labelled as Hereteks and eventually find their way being lumped in the Dark Mechanicus.  If those rules apply to the AdMech within itself, it's highly unlikely that they'll let your chapter have such technology, much less let you use it without first claiming your chapter as heretics and getting the Inquisition to get medieval on your chapter so that they can get the technology for themselves and then store it in a safe vault where no one will ever touch it.  In all likelihood, the most advanced tech you're going to get is probably Great Crusade or Dark Age of Technology level of equipment, and that's assuming that those pieces can even be produced anymore.  At that point, that only puts your chapter on technological par with some of the First Founding chapters that got to keep leftover equipment from their time as legions.

 

 

However, cooperating with the Xenos, while heretical as Quozzo mentioned, certainly isn't unheard of.  In my opinion, you could pass that off as long as you are only desperate-allies level of cooperation, as you said.  And upon the Ecclesiarchy topic, it's definitely a bad idea.  You should just go with lip service rather than outright disagreement.  Disagreement loses you your chaplains and quite likely will cause you to come to blows with the Sisters and possibly the Black Templars.  In terms of power balance between the three major branches of the Inquisition, I think Hereticus is the most powerful given that it seems to be the largest branch, followed by Malleus, then Xenos.  Possession of high-technology and good standing with the Ordo Xenos is not going to protect the Grey Riders from the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition, especially when the Inquisition can requisition chapters that tend not to question it, such as the Minotaurs.  Even more, I think that the Ordo Xenos is also in charge of regulating (read as seizing) alien technology under the advice of the AdMech, so the good standing might change if they realize that the Grey Riders are imitating Xenos tech.  Also, the Space Wolves are at most ambivalent, given that they have Ecclesiarchy-sanctioned wolf priests.  The Salamanders also get along with the Ecclesiarchy given that the Promethean Cult was recognized as an official sect of the Cult of the Emperor.

[NightrawenII]

In terms of power balance between the three major branches of the Inquisition, I think Hereticus is the most powerful, given that it was the original founding branch and also the largest branch, followed by Malleus, then Xenos.

Actually, Hereticus branch was established after age of apostasy in M36.

[FunkyMonkey]

Ah, my mistake.  I was under the impression that only the Sisters of Battle were formed after Goge Vandire's Reign of Blood and were attached to the Hereticus after the fact.  I'll edit that.  Still, I would say that it exerts the most tangible influence in the Imperium out of the three major branches by virtue of the sheer size needed to police the Imperium.  It's funny that they originally were formed to police the Ecclesiarchy, but now more than ever, they seem to work in concert together as the historical inquisition did.

[ShasVa]

Two chapters apparently have a lot of technology on their side; the Reclaimers and the Praetors of Orpheus. Why couldn't my Grey Riders?

[FunkyMonkey]

That's not even a similar comparison.   The Grey Riders are being set up as going above and beyond what these two, and the AdMech have in terms of technology.  What those two chapters have are essentially high-grade master crafted or Great Crusade/DAoT level of equipment.  Nothing's wrong with that.  What they don't have is technology imitating xenos tech.  That right there is foul tech heresy.  Essentially, those two chapters are going to be the highest level of technology achievable by the Adeptus Astartes, and that's where your Grey Riders should be at if you want them at the forefront of Imperial tech, but your current Grey Riders setup are going beyond that, which is not really possible for a loyalist chapter given the state of knowledge as well as the xenophobia and ignorance of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

[Veteran Sergeant]

One thing that pops out that I didn't see anybody mention:  Navigators are their own "race" of mutants. Space Marines aren't Navigators, nor do they really have any reason to be. A Chapter has a limited amount of geneseed, and a Navigator would be way too valuable to risk in a ground operation. So you're not going to implant Space Marine geneseed into somebody  with the Navigator gene, even if it was possible (we really don't know if it is or not, for exactly that reason, it wouldn't be done).

[Andurin Marvak]

As everyone has commented upon, you're trying to cram too much cool stuff into one chapter. To me, it really looks like you're trying to yoink tidits from here and there to put together a pretty darn noble-bright chapter that really doesn't have anything going against it. To do this, you've crossed several lines in the lore that aren't exactly easy to cross, or are actually impossible to logically cross.

 

Again, as others have said, you need to be able to elaborate on why the marines do what they do.

Some key points to consider:

 

-What exactly caused them to reverse the "flesh is weak" decision? Sure, they might have access to some of Manus' stuff...but do you think the actual Iron hands don't? Why would their reaction be so radically different than other IH successors?

-What reason do they have to start treating their serfs and the citizens of their homeworld with the same respect Salamanders do theirs? Again, these are Iron Hands successors. Why would they suddenly become more humane?

 

-Why all the bikes? Again, these are IH successors. I could see massive drop pod usage, as well as heavy firepower, but why bikes? Was there some new, dangerous threat that required this sudden mobility change?

 

-Why are they magically so high-tech? Granted, they are Iron Hands successors...but that said, they aren't the Iron Hands. There are plenty of ways to fight high-tech with high-tech, none of them require a special chapter to be created out of nowhere when the Iron Hands, and more importantly, the Adeptus Mechanicus, already exist.

 

-Is there any reason or history that would make them hate the Ecclesiarchy so much? I could understand a less than friendly rivalry between AdMech and Ecclesiarch, but only on certain fronts. Also, in this case, trying to bring your chapter closer to your own ideology might be tempting, but unless things are well thought out, it makes everything tainted with Mary-Sue.

 

-Why the name changes for ranks? If anything, they'd follow IH convention. I know the rule of cool is fun and all, but if you actually want to flesh out the chapter, willy-nilly aesthetic changes tend to make it cluttered and less appealing.

[ShasVa]

1. An early idea, but one I could possibly change. I wanted to know that both flesh and machine have strength, not just the latter. Didn't like the idea of eventually nothing more than a brain in an armoured suit.
2. This is one idea I'd like to keep. I didn't find any information on how the Iron Hands, or their known successors, treat their chapter serfs, Guardsmen, or Imperial citizens.
3. This is a strategic choice made for any would-be future gaming I might end up doing.
4. AdMech don't have a Codex, and the Iron Hands may not get a supplement. In any case, I wanted something of my own creation. Game-wise, the Iron Hands have the Chapter Tactics I was after, which also works with the Grey Riders using bikes.
5. Again, this was due to my real-life distaste for religion. But...I think I can come up with a compromise for the Grey Riders at least.
6. Supreme Commander sounded cooler (to me) than Chapter Master.

It seems I may have to redo quite a few of my points for the Grey Riders. Doable, but with a little bit of time. Appreciate the honesty though with all of your replies.

[Andurin Marvak]

Some helpful advice stemming from what I did when I invented my chapter: Just because the rules are Iron Hands, does not mean they have to be Iron Hands successors. If you like a playstyle, create fluff to fit it that's your own. For example, I needed a way to make a model with rules that would fit a dragon ridden by a marine. I started with Canis Wolfborn of the Space Wolves, then a Librarian Furioso Dreadnought for the Blood Angels, and finally, a Dreadknight from the Grey Knights Codex.

My chapter has remained Blood Angel in geneseed and culture throughout.

 

For example, using Iron Hands rules (which I might for an allied detachment), I could, instead of bionics, state that members of the chapter use meditation and great physical perfection through training to withstand wounds even other astartes might balk at. (FNP Save) They also might be very handy at repairing their own gear because they go on protracted crusades, etc., and have less access to Forgeworlds. For these, I would suggest Salamander geneseed, but again, the rules are Iron Hands.

[Quozzo]

ShasVa, your using real life to rationalize the choices your chapter has made when it is in fact quite the contrary. If you want hi-tech goodies, xeno sympathizers and non-religious warrior-monks then you need to ask why your chapter made those choices, not you, and then hopefully answer them

Just be aware that no-matter what your reasoning may be, it may contradict already established fluff, but if your comfortable taking that route then so be it.

[ShasVa]

I've purposely limited their access to cool toys like Fellglaives and Fire Raptors. I understand that such things would be rare in the "present" timeline. Regardless, they would have one of a few cool toys, yet treat them with great respect and care, only calling them to battle when it really, truly demands it. Or they could be Minotaur-like, and deploy everything and everyone regardless of the size of the conflict.

 

I've also accepted that being anti-religion is fine for me in real-life, but maybe not so for the chapter. So I've concluded that they won't be anti-Echlessiarchy, but just annoyed by any interference from them. Pretty much "we'll do our thing, you do yours, but get in our way and there'll be a major ****** problem!".

 

Could the chapter not know their founding or progenitor, but still be on good terms with the AdMech? I know of a few chapters that don't know who their "parent" is, like the Storm Giants and the Mentors. Not knowing their lineage is also an idea I've been tossing around, as it could give me a bit more freedom with their history/beliefs.

[Quozzo]

Note in the Mentors article on Lexicanum it states they use Imperial tech, just saying

Also I accidentally clicked on the Minotaurs, and although the have some form of direct tie to the High Lords of Terra, they can almost instantly regain any losses of man or machine but they still don't use xeno tech.

"we'll do our thing, you do yours, but get in our way and there'll be a major ****** problem!"It's usually a problem for the chapter, as their small size is intentionally limited so they don't pose a threat should any chapter step out of line or become aligned with the forces of chaos. Which is why if the Ecclesiarchy wants you to do something you do it, or at least pretend you do.

As for the unknown gene-seed. Only one founding resulted in all the records being lost and that was aptly named the Dark Founding, as everyone was kept in the dark. Whether it was intentional or not is another matter, but it means that most chapters know their lineage. If your chapter is from the 26th founding then it is highly likely they know there lineage, if not they could just ask the AdMech. They may not want other organizations knowing that information though, especially the inquisition who may be looking for any flaws to call you traitors should you disagree with them.

[FunkyMonkey]

Yeah, I know that you're not too fond of huge organized religion, but in Warhammer 40K, religion is the name of the game.  If it's not the Ecclesiarchy's Cult of the Emperor, then it's the Adeptus Mechanicus's belief in the Omnissiah and the the cult of knowledge.  Both are insanely oppressive when it comes to violating their very strict doctrines, and the way you have it know, you're running afoul of both.  I'm not really sure what forces can be left to shelter your chapter from both, except for maybe devotion to Chaos, if you both pursue imitating Xenos tech and refuse to pay, at a minimum, lip service to the Ecclesiarchy.  Not even prior good standing with the High Lords of Terra will help, because the Fabricator General and the Ecclesiarch are both High Lords.

 

Like said before by multiple people, make your chapter the pinnacle of Imperial tech, like the Praetors of Oprheus and Reclaimers you mentioned but go no further.  Pay lip service to the Ecclesiarchy and do as they say when they ask of it.  Make your chapter special by showing how they adapt to real changes in the universe.

[Ecritter]

I can't keep quiet any longer.  SM Chapters are allowed their own religions, they are not subject to the Cult of the Ecclesiarchy or anyone else for that matter.  No one questions their religions whatsoever.  In fact, very few Chapters actually follow the cult.

[FunkyMonkey]

That's because those chapters are allowed to have their religions.  With the exception of the Iron Hands and some of their descendants, they all have sanctioned chaplains, which means that the Ecclesiarchy went and found out about their religion and decided it was acceptable.  That's called deference to the Ecclesiarchy and paying lip service.  If the Grey Riders don't do even that, as it seems to be suggested, then the Ecclesiarchy will surely declare them heretics after enough times being told to bugger off.

[Veteran Sergeant]

No it isn't... I don't know where you got that idea, but the Ecclessiarchy holds no sway over the Space Marines. The Rosarius was more of a peace offering than anything else. A "Same team" sorta thing.

 

The Space Marines have never taken their orders from the Ecclessiarchy. In fact, the fluff is usually fairly clear about Chapters that do follow the Cult of the Emperor being the exception, not the rule.

 

I have my doubts on the rest of his fluff, but telling the Ecclessiarchy to buzz off is fairly standard operating procedure for the Space Marines, even if some of them are much more polite about it.

[Veteran Sergeant]

In fact, the Space Wolves just one day decided to murder a bunch of Ecclesiarchal investigators, and then tried to shoot an Ecclesiarchal fleet out of space when they came to investigate what happened.

[FunkyMonkey]

Yeah, the Rosarius is a peace offering, but that implies a sanction, even if it's only a passive condoning.  I know that very few chapters follow the cult of the emperor, but if chpaters got rosarius(s) for their chaplains, then their beliefs had to have been at least acceptable to the Ecclesiarchy.  If it were a blanket peace offering, all chapters, including then the Iron Hands, would get rosarius(s) for their chaplains/iron fathers.  There has to have been a minimal level of compatibility, and the way his first chaplain was portrayed at being vocal proponents of the Imperial Truth probably doesn't pass that minimal compatibility level.

 

Yeah you are right about the chapters telling the Ecclesiarchy to buzz off, though.

 

But anyways, this discussion is moot.  OP decided to make the Grey Riders like the Iron Hands descendants with the Emperor/Omnissiah belief while avoiding the Xenos tech heresy, so that would avoid all the troubles we've been talking about.  In my opinion, though, that's still an organized religion, even if it isn't the stereotypical religion, but if OP decides its a better religion than the Ecclesiarchical religion, then that's totally his right.

[Quozzo]

The Space Wolves, like many first founding chapters, can get away with a lot. Blood Angles still haven't turned over the Infernus Pistol STC to the AdMech with little to no consequence.

 

While Space Marines may not follow the Ecclesiarch, they do have their own religion and they don't piss off the one organization that could and will brand them as heretics or traitors.

[NightrawenII]

SM Chapters are allowed their own religions, (...) . No one questions their religions whatsoever.

This is outright wrong, the Ordo Hereticus and even the Adeptus Ministorum can question anyone's faith.

 

Yes, the Adeptus Astartes fall in category of 'live and let live', but there are still limits to their practices and rites and the Chapter can be excommunicated on the religious grounds like any other of Emperor's subject.

 

 

~ NightrawenII

[ShasVa]

 

SM Chapters are allowed their own religions, (...) . No one questions their religions whatsoever.

This is outright wrong, the Ordo Hereticus and even the Adeptus Ministorum can question anyone's faith.

 

Yes, the Adeptus Astartes fall in category of 'live and let live', but there are still limits to their practices and rites and the Chapter can be excommunicated on the religious grounds like any other of Emperor's subject.

 

 

~ NightrawenII

 

Dual veneration of both the Emperor and the Omnissiah should keep the Grey Riders relatively safe from that irritating church! Seeing as they can't be proponents of the Imperial Truth then this is the best I can do within the boundaries of the fluff! :) :(

[Ecritter]

SM Chapters are allowed their own religions, (...) . No one questions their religions whatsoever.

This is outright wrong, the Ordo Hereticus and even the Adeptus Ministorum can question anyone's faith.

Yes, the Adeptus Astartes fall in category of 'live and let live', but there are still limits to their practices and rites and the Chapter can be excommunicated on the religious grounds like any other of Emperor's subject.

~ NightrawenII

Well yeah, they can't openly worship Chaos for instance, but they'd have to go pretty far outside the box to draw attention.