Beating the Eldar

[DannyJZuko]

I did some searches and most of the material about the Eldar and how to play against them was pretty speculative. It either came in the early days of the 6th Edition Eldar Codex or before it. There is next to nothing (that I could find) that dealt with tactics from the 6th Edition Space Marine Codex. There was also nothing definitive in terms of proven strategies. So, as someone who has been struggling against these pointy-eared bastards and desperately needs a win, I am asking you all:

 

What works? How do you beat them? What's the strategy?

 

Thanks, everyone!

[WarriorFish]

The best strategy is to wax lyrical about how mighty Space Marines are. Beloved by GW with the quickest updates, best models, most plastic and peerless rules surely you are part of the master race unlike those puny xenos. Seriously, why does anyone even bother with Eldar? They're like all dying and stuff so there's only a few left so you shouldn't be flinging them like Guardsmen at the heroic Space Marines...

Keep it up all game. Your opponent's tears of rage will obscure his vision; his Eldar complain-stones will be in overdrive hampering his ability to properly enact tactical manoeuvres and it will be a cake walk to claim victory!

Actually, what you should probably do is give us a bit more detail. Are you playing Ultramarines Chapter Tactics? What sort of Eldar units are you having difficulty with? What sort of lists do you build/like/have? Common points value games? Otherwise you might not get much better than the speculation you've already found.

There are lots of experienced brothers here who love sharing battle wisdom, but you have to help them out a bit first with something to go on

[Garath]

Some words from a Veteran. Haven't tested it this edition- but the advice I'll give you is solid - always was and will be.

I will assume you are facing a list somewhere along these lines:

Farseer on jetbike/mantle

3-4 Wave serpants with Dire avengers,Firedragons,Guardians etc

Jetbikes

Fire Prisms

Point costs and why life sucks

This is a hard fact of life.No unit in SM codex can match the Wave serpant in both mobility,firepower and ressilience . Period. It's as survivable as a land radier,mobile as a speeder - shots like both added together

The only way to counter them with price/firepower is to take units that have long range , ignore cover (to negate their 4+ jink) and multiple shots. One units comes tom mind- Hydra...

Hydra is a hard counter to the whole codex. Costing a little more then a land speeder for a tank that comes in squadrons, has solid AV and awesome firepower that has the highest chance to knock out a Wave serpant by itself.

A fire battery of 4 , costing a little over 350 pts can dominate the battlefield

No unit in the SM codex can match this .

Why Mobility is their way and not your way

If we stick to codex SM, things get a bit difficult - but if it where easy you wouldn't be asking for help ,right ? First thing is to understand that any and all combat you might end up in will probably be on his terms (unless yiou field bikes- but later on that) . Getting into combat will be next to impossible . There's little reason to take any cc units at all. So forget about assault termies and a land raider and such things. Eldar will be too mobile . Every model in their list can move 12" and shoot at 24". With pre-measuring he can easly stay out of combat and flank your army in a way that his smaller force will first try to divide your army and completely destroy one part- then move onto the next.

That's what he will aim to do. He will have a plan of priority roughly like this:

- dostroy the mobile parts of your army

- destroy the heavy weapons

- deal with the rest

Now how to counter this ? Consider placing objectives near to his objectives. Seriously. This will allow you not to split your army into sections that can be dealth with seperately. Keep your army together so you can hit a single target with multiple units. For example a wave serpant with wraithblades in it poses a threat to any one or 2 isolated units- but cannot deal with 3 or four and hope to survive .

Never,ever leave a unit isolated. Always have another unit that can put rounds to ground and is nearby.

To sum up : Superior Mobility can be countered by staying together

Fancy isn't always needed

Space marines are an elite army. That statemant holds much truth. Our basic trooper armed with a bolter is superior point for point then any other model in any army. I'm currently doing a whole article on the humble marine - and how good it is.

Any eldar unit that can outshoot a 10 man tactical squad in a rapid fire range firefight will cost a LOT of points.

....to be continued

[Garath]

Continuing...

 

    Let's taka an example :  Guardian Defenders.  Costing 3 pts less then a scout per model. For 2 marines they get 3 guardians. 

  For 170 pts you can field a 10 man tac squad with a heavy weapon and a special one. That's 13-14 guardians plus heavy weapon platform.   I know my points are a little off - for a reason (I'll get to it).

   There are several problems for the eldar player here. First and foremost, range.  You hit him from 30"  with bolters (move + shoot)  ,he hits you from 18+6+run move(battle focus) .  And he get's no save apart from cover. Or he's packing a Warlock- further increasing the cost of his unit  (and that just means we calculate in - more marines).

     

   See where I'm going  with this?  

 

  In case you just hug cover , and put 2 tactical squads next to each other- he will have a very hard time to come on top with his shootiest thing in the whole codex .  A full volley of fire from 13 guardians might kill 4-5 marines- but if 15 are firing back - no eldar will survive, especially if you're packing flamers.

   But hey, for 20 marines (320+ pts) he can take 30+ guardians.  Yes. But they can't all fit into 12" range.  If they can, they will end their movement bunched up- not a good thing for them if you're packing flamers.

 

  All other eldar units have similar damage output per model(but less per point!)- but far less then the simple guardian. A jetbike costs simmilar to 2 guardians  - but kills only as much as one and a half. It has better T and a better save - but it's range is the same. 

   Dire avengers are expensive guardians with a better range and a better save, Their damage output is the same.  Wraithblades/guard cost twice as much as a single tactical marine . 

 

  Why tactical marines?  

 

   The sole point of the whole former section is that a single marine , in great numbers, can deal with almost every eldar unit on foot.

 

  You can have 5 full tactical sqauds plus the cheapest librarian for a 1000 pts,

 

   Your basic squad setup is 10 tacticals, a plasma gun ,missile launcher and a combi flamer on the sarge.  Five such squads and a naked Libby come out to 30ish pts less then a 1000.  Taking them all out is a pain , especially if you gang up. Missile launcher is a weapon capable of both taking down jetbikes, infantry and the odd tank . It's also blast for those cheap infantry choices, Plasma is also a weapon that can take care of multiple roles.

  The searge is packing a combi flamer , that can be both a bolter (which is important earyl on) and a flamer for that one situation per game that might arise.  That is the reason why I was talking in abstract numbers earlier.

 

  The humble tactical marine  is the best point for point answer to anything he can field- if you take enough of them. That big squad of 9 jetbikes doesn't seem so scary now , when you have 50 marines in one place, and 3 squads start firing.

 

  Sure, he can take 120+ guardians - but more then half will die before they even get into range.  Move back and apply bolter to face.

 

   There are other choices

 

 Yes, the codex gives other choices too.  The main problem with these is the die just as easy as a tactical marine , but cost more pts.   Sterguard are a good unit, but 6 of them equals to a tactical squad ...and they die just as easy, but don't kill more if they're shooting at troops.   I'll come back to them. 

  Same thing with bikes.  They are mobile,true, and do have higher T.  However , that doesn't make any difference since eldar guns have rending now....so the damage output of a 10 man guardian squad  is the same against bikes and tacticals.  We have seen how tacticals can screw them over- can bikes do it?

   Yes, but not after they start taking casualties.

 

  Terminators are really the point sink here, Costing more then twice then a tactcal marine. We have to realize here, that a marine in cover 5+ has sthe same cahnce of surviving a rending hit as aterminator with his 5++.

  Sad but true

 

  Those other choices do have a role, but I'll get to it later when we look at the whole picture.

 

 

  Transports and why people thing eldar are...less then masculine

 

    Hey, that'a all cool Garath, but Eldar don't go on foot- they ride in cheesy transports that shoot a bunch!!!   

 

  Thank you ,imaginary voice  that questions my claim.   How to counter the fact that Eldar can, and will bring awesome firepower in form of massed troops deployed from transports once  your army is weak and down on numbers - to finish it off?

   

   There's this thing that Eldar players used to name " Opening" .

 

   Opening, quite simply is that moment when the eldar playere spots an isolated unit, blocked off by terrain or simply range,from the rest of the main force. A lone squad if you will.  Then they go in for the kill. A wave serpant positions itself so that the rest of the enemy force cannot see it well and deploys the squad inside in front of the lone target unit.

   That unit might be able to take the damn thing down- but it will not happen since they are doomed for sure.  There's usually a supporting element in place to, like a long ranged multi fire unit such as War walkers of snipers or Fire prism.

   

   How do they create an Opening?

 

  Mostly by flying around and picing off targets of opportunity. If you look at my first post- the first thing to go down  will probably be the fastest thing you have. This is the reason why, if the fast elements in your army exist(like land speeders) an opening will be hard to create.  A wave serpant deplying a sqaud of Dire avangers to finish of a lone tactical is a good idea, but if you still have an operational land speeder with a heavy bolter and CML- he's going  to have to wait.

 

   A single land speeder can either pop that Wave serpant (since you target the rear AV- no shield no nothing) or murder the squad with template fire- from far far away.

 

  Preventing this Opening is done in a couple of layers if you will:

 

- never leave a squad unsupported

-have a large mass of troops

-have a unit in reserve to respont

[Garath]

    continued....

 

   The Opening and transports

 

   I still haven't said a sinlge thind about actually killing those things- apart from how not to get killed. Again, it's a game of numbers. And you can have more.

    Think about it this way- he can have both tranksports and troops inside fire at your guys, but not at the same time if he want's the troops to survive.  He has to wait for an Opening to beat you. If he commits to early, the troops inside will get killed on the counter attack. 

   Wave serpant carrying 10 guardians (cheapest option)  costs 240 pts.  You can have 10 marines and a land speeder (just an example) for those points.  That's his cheapest deal, and yours too.

   His problem lies in that fact that he must separate your army to defeat you. And weaken it.  The solution to the transport problem are things that can target the serpants' rear AV(later on that)

 

   Firepower and mobility

 

    His lifesaver.  He needs to fly around and concentrate his firepower . Wave serpants and jetbikes supported by Fireprisms crippling your squads before your numbers are thin- then he can safely deploy his troops from the transports and finish your units off.

   There's a hidden gem in that tac squad setup.  The searge, He packs a flamer for the following situation:    The eldar player commits and deploys a squad in front of your tacticals and opens up fire. Your guys are in cover , but the eldar supporting elements  do a good job and kill almost all mraines except the Sarge  and a single trooper.

   Now it's your turn, Searge moves up and flames their ass before the charge!   A cool trick here is to naturally use another squad near by to provide more firesupport, Another less then friendly trick is to use the flamer to target the Wave serpant but catch the guardians with it too...so they die and the searge can charge the Wave serpant.

   Guess what ? He's packing grenades for free,and hist the thing on a 3. Has 2 attacks  and the Serpant shield doesn't work in combat.

 

  I know it's a corner case scenario ,but remember it just in case.

 

 How do we prevent the eldar from killing so much with their firepower before they commit their troops to take objectives?  

 

   Targeting and killing the Wave serpants will be hard for tacticals to do. It takes like 18 m.launcher shots to take down a single Wave serpant. I know it's insane that a unit resilient as a land raider can cost almost half as much.  We will leave them to other choices- later on that.

 

   What tacticals might be able to do well is deal with the other supporting elements of his list.  Jetbikes, Vypers, Fireprims ,Warwalkers etc.  Key here is hitting the soft things first.  Seriously. You gain nothing by stripping 2 HP from a Fireprism when that same firepower could have been used to kill a unit of jetbikes.

   jetbikes should be a prime target here, as they are scoring - and will zoom in for that last turn objective grab. Do not despair or second guess this.  Pick a target for all of your squads (careful deploymentof heavy weapons is key here) to deal with and kill it !

   If it's a Vyper squad, hit it with everything ! - kill them dead ! No holding back !

 

   Seriously, my hating them put aside now, the more you kill early on, the more marines you will have later- and the harder it will be for him to create Openings .  And you will get First Blood.

 

 Counterpunch

 

 Still, those Wave serpants are dangerous.  A counter-punch is needed,  That, quite simply is a number of units that can either match the Eldar speed or deep strike in to destroy their transports.

 

Examples:

 

  2 Land speeders with MM and CML in deep strike. Where will they turn up ? Who knows, but it doesn't really matter- does it?  Where ever they land , all you need is for the to:

 

a) land in the back arc of the Wave serpant

b) be within 24" so melta will be in range- don't worry about 2d6 as you will target  the Rear AV 10- so a 3+ is needed for a penetrating hit. That combined with 2 CML shots for less then a 100?

 

 Think about it- 2 land speeders cost roughly the same as a Wave serpant- and if they target the rear AV- they have a good chance to take it down.  His whole plan revolves around the idea that you will waste some firepower on those serpants and fail- and here we have one of the codex choices that counters it. 

 

Tacticals in a drop pod

 

 5 marines, melta and a combi melta. Simple,cheap , effective as hell.  If you go first , it's a pain!   they drop in, deploy very near and destroy something.  You get to pick.  They can easily  take down a Wave serpant  if it didn't move- and you drop in behind it.

   If you show up with this, he will have to reserve some things in order to save them.  That's a good thing since it means you just  altered his  plan.

 

 Dreadnought

 

 Seriously, they are still good in a pod. Multi melta to the face, same as tacticals . Except if you can drop in behind a building (and move into it) the dread will have cover. It's cheap enough, and powerful enough to deal with squads inside transports should you choose to destroy one.  Eldar units do have grenades, but the Dread has a heavy flamer- which is good on Overwatch.

 

Tactical Terminators

 

  Not discarding those. Never. They do need a good plan tho. Always deep strike them against eldar-there's čittče reason not to. They are prefect for those back field objective grabbing missions.  They also might be able to target rear AV of tanks . 

 

 Sternguard

 

 I said earlier I'll comment on them.  There are several ways to field them. In a pod, or on foot. If they go in with the pod, keep the price down as they will not live more then one turn. That are perfect for one thing tho- an that is killing the HQ model with the mantle.  So he has a guy that gains a cover save 2+ with a re-roll.  Guess what, that is from turn 2.  On turn one , your pod goes in , they fire and ignore cover...

   BAMM!  the game hasn't started and he's already behind!  First Blood and Slay the Warlord all in one! 

 

  Second choice is having them on foot. That way they can deal with the bis stuff like Wraithknights , or deal wounds onto bikers. Don't expect them to last long tho.

 

  Putting it all together

 

 1.Take as many models as you can, leave all expensive units behind

2. Support your sqauds

3.Have a planned Counterpunch

4.Stick to the plan

5.If you spend more then 150 pts on any one unit, make sure you know why you're taking it instead of something cheaper

 

  It's a game od numbers

 

 

 

 Conclusion

 

 That's pretty much what I have to say speaking of Eldar in general.  I haven't talked about chapter tactics,special characters etc. The reason for this is that fact that all those extra rules should be taken...as extras. They are not the backbone of the plan.They are gravy,  This plan is solid -regardless  of chapters.

 

 

   If you have specific questions or comments - they are more then welcome

[DannyJZuko]

@Garath: THANK YOU! That is a lot to digest, I will certainly pick your brain some more as I work through all of that.

 

@WarriorFish: Sorry for the vagueness, here is some extra info.

 

I am running Ultramarines Chapter Tactics.

 

He usually runs a list that changes but has these core elements:

 

Exarch with Guide, Doom, and Fortune.

 

Swooping Hawks (enough to get the big blast)

 

3 War walkers with scatter lasers and bright lances

 

Rangers with snipers (usually about 6 or so)

 

Wraithlord with scatter lasers and bright lance

 

Then with a smattering of some of these units depending on his mood:

 

3-6 jetbikes

Striking Scorpions

Fire Dragons

Dire Avengers

Fire Prism

Wave Serpent

Wraithguard

 

I like to play aggressive lists that usually consist of the following elements:

 

Assault squad w/ chaplain and Ironclad w/ 2x HF in a Stormraven that is escorted by a Stormtalon

 

Terminator Assault Squad in LRC

 

2x Tac Squads (toying with the idea of running all bolters...)

 

I will then add different elements and have yet to hit a good balance:

 

Predator (usually AC and HBs)

Another Stormtalon

Tigurius with Centurions (Grav)

CC Scouts in LSS

Sternguard with Combi weapons (2x melta, 2x flamer, 1x grav)

 

We usually play between 1250 and 2000 points.

 

I am just generally having trouble because shurikens or AP2 weapons mow down anything on foot, lances wreck my vehicles, guide and scatter lasers twin-link most stuff, and doom almost always guarantees a pen or glance or nullifies invulns.

 

Thank you all for your help! It is much needed and greatly appreciated!

[Calnus]

Couple points--Rhinos are only slightly less survivable than land Raiders against Bright Lances.  You might want to take a few.

--Eldar don't bring much Skyfire, but certainly can twin-link damn near everything.  Stormtalons are in the sweet spot where the S6 and S7 guns used by the bulk of Eldar units can down them relatively easily.  Stormravens are just that much harder to kill for Eldar with the S6 vs. AV12 problem.

--You can't pick psychic powers, so the Farseer taking Guide Doom and Fortune in most games is slightly suspicious.  And there is nothing that removes invulnerable saves, you don't even have to re-roll them now that SM is updated and you can't take Null Zone anymore.  Check his rules.

--Wraith-type units are allergic to Krak Missiles and Lascannons.  When models pile out of a transport, they're bunched up nicely for flamers and Frag Missiles.  You should get a lot of mileage from your standard Missile Launchers against Eldar

--Once a Wave Serpent uses its shield offensively, Melta can one-shot it.  Remember they can't downgrade pens to glances if they shot the turn before.

--Swooping hawks have to be on the board for a turn before leaving again.  So you'll get a turn to shoot at them, and they're only T3 4+ save.  Heavy bolters remove Eldar like its going out style.  Also, the grenade pack that he places anywhere he wants doesn't have Haywire, only the actual melee grenades of the Hawks themselves.

[bystrom]

Firstly, he cannot choose which psychic powers to use, since farseers now roll on a random table. For example, it is never guaranteed that he is going to get fortune and/or doom.

 

I think that you shouldn't really go with all-bolter tactical marines, even if it is only adding a plasma gun, it's usually worth it.

 

Since you use two large/expensive close combat units, I suggest using cheaper support rather than more expensive. Maybe some 5-man tactical squads with heavy weapons, rhinos for larger tactical squads and either predator or devastator squads. For a predator, I personally prefer an anti-tank variant over the autocannon/heavy bolter against eldar, since you need more AT than normal to shoot down their skimmers, and you can kill most eldar infantry with bolters/tactical squads. What I like doing is have a land speeder with two multi-meltas deep-strike behind an eldar vehicle. It'll get a 4+ cover save, but the serpent shield doesn't work from the back, so its still a good, 80 pt investment against eldar tanks.

 

Other than that, use terrain for cover saves.

[DannyJZuko]

@Calnus - I have thought about the rhino solution. Been considering it for a while if not just for one tac. As for the psychic powers, I know you can't pick them, and he does roll for them. Just, with a level three psychic, primaris powers, and the number of dice rolling, those are the three he usually goes for and at least two of them are practically guaranteed. But, doom does not force rerolls on invulns? That could be huge.

 

@bystrom - Good advice about the tacs. My only thought is that maybe those points could be better spent in other places? Versus Eldar, what do you think is the best upgrade to take with a tac squad?

[WarriorFish]

No need to apologise brother, just wanted to advise you on the best way to get good feedback Though I have to say Garath did a sterling job of typing out generalist tactics, I didn't think anyone would take the time and effort for such a vast tome!

It looks to me like you're spending too many points on units, a lot of eggs in a Stormraven basket for example. I like my armies on the cheaper side, numbers are good and even a basic Marine is pretty handy at most things so you're not holding your army back in doing so. Eldar can hit very hard but like the cowardly and weak xenos they are can't take the same back, by taking expensive units you're playing into his hands.

Eldar have no lack of good weaponry either (AP2 shuriken aside) so again, cheap and numerous helps dilute that. I'd drop the Assault Marines and focus on shooting. Overwhelm him with numbers and bullets, play to your strengths and do everything you can to deny his. Like Garath said Eldars are very mobile and will redeploy and pick your exposed areas apart if you'll let them.

So I think you're on the right track by being aggressive, you've just got to make sure the aggression is only on your terms and not to get baited. You want to attack as soon as possible and with as many units as possible though, so don't tarry unless it suits you. Good target priority will be essential.

Unfortunately I don't have the time to give detailed points about individual units etc at the moment, but I'm sure someone else can do just as good a job (or better). That's one of many benefits of the B&C

[Grey Mage]

I did some searches and most of the material about the Eldar and how to play against them was pretty speculative. It either came in the early days of the 6th Edition Eldar Codex or before it. There is next to nothing (that I could find) that dealt with tactics from the 6th Edition Space Marine Codex. There was also nothing definitive in terms of proven strategies. So, as someone who has been struggling against these pointy-eared bastards and desperately needs a win, I am asking you all:

 

What works? How do you beat them? What's the strategy?

 

Thanks, everyone!

Depends on what youre seeing. Waveserpent spam? Bring alot of missile launchers and lascannons, and learn wich ones to target.

 

With a 4+ cover save and a 2+ to make pens glancing, theyre a survivable transport. Very survivable. However most of these youngins are shooting their shields off while on the move, enjoy a TLd S7 barrage with the scatter lasers as backup- great and all, but not incredibly decimating against a tactical squad or devastators. Once the shield is down like that wave serpents are fairly vulnerable to lascannon fire, and are always vulnerable as any other AV 12 vehicle really to massed missile launcher fire.

 

Wraith Knights are killed the same way by the way. The reason these two units are seen so much, and seen so strongly, is that the ML/LC spam from the end of 5th has largely died out in favor of S6 weaponry or plasma, wich simply isnt as good in these cases.

 

Ravenwing will struggle against mechdar in alot of cases, theyre faster and shootier, so catching them is a multi-turn affair. However green with with or without Deathwing support has alot of strong options.

 

Against footdar- like your opponent has there- the tables are reversed- shrouded ravenwing are a strong option, with whirlwind and a bit of greenwing support if you like. The speed of the bikes and the cover saves available to you, or the 4++ for that matter, help mitigate the effects of eldars pseudo-rending shurican weapons while their T5 and good shooting make them both survivable in CC and willing to get up close and personal. Heavy cavalry tactics here pay strong dividends.

 

Theres less 4+ saves in the eldar army than ever before. Plasma will be your friend for special weapons, and the plasma talon kind of makes me drool...Rad weapons allowing you to insta-kill HQs on the charge is kind of obscene too.

 

 

@Calnus

- I have thought about the rhino solution. Been considering it for a while if not just for one tac. As for the psychic powers, I know you can't pick them, and he does roll for them. Just, with a level three psychic, primaris powers, and the number of dice rolling, those are the three he usually goes for and at least two of them are practically guaranteed. But, doom does not force rerolls on invulns? That could be huge.

 

@bystrom - Good advice about the tacs. My only thought is that maybe those points could be better spent in other places? Versus Eldar, what do you think is the best upgrade to take with a tac squad?

Doom gives him a reroll to wound or penetrate/glance only, its potent, but expensive. Id say Plasmagun and Lascannon are all you really need for upgrades on a tactical squad, but if your drop podding a combi-flamer wouldnt go amiss.

 

Rhinos though... field them in large numbers or dont bother. Same for razorbacks. Theres so much midstrength shooting in the army that a couple of rhinos will be quickly overwhelmed. Of course, if you enjoy 35pt terrain pieces this might not be a horrible idea in and of itself.

 

One thing you might do is consider taking some Company Veterans with Combi-plasmas and a Plasmagun in a drop pod- plunking that down next to his warwalkers will quickly cripple his firebase.

 

I agree though, dropping the landraider is in your best interest- it just isnt tough enough when its AV 12 vs most of the firepower headed its way.

 

Just be careful with your deathwing- eldar love eating elite units like them for breakfast, so choosing the right targets for their deep strike is critical.

 

The more bodie you have on the field, the better off youll be. Eldar excell at killing marines of any variety, so dont load up on toys unless you can guarantee that youll get a chance to use them- like the aforementioned combis in a DP.

[Tiger9gamer]

the question needs to be asked though.... why the flying frak is Wave serpents so overpowered like this?

[Azash]

Think someone already mentioned it but a LR is meh against Eldar unless you think you will be going up against a serpent spam list.

 

However let's talk 6th ed Eldar not the dancers from last edition. They don't need an opening and you most certainly need Rhinos. In one turn a wave serpent with 12 12 10, a working shield (kiss your first pen good bye), and 3+ cover saves will be parked next to your army. Inside are 5 wraith with ap 2 Template flamers. Yep kids that's the 6th ed eldar version of a throw away suicide unit. You will blow so much fire power on the serpent you cant kill the wraiths if your marines are not in rhinos they are screwed. Depending on points you can expect up to 3 of these.

 

I would suggest sticking together with over lapping fields of fire. I would also suggest grav cannon centurions. One unit can clean sweep wraiths leaving the rest of your army to worry about the rushing serpents. Grav cannon cents are also a good threat to serpents. A 6 auto immobilizes if the serpent went flat out an immobilized result wrecks it! Pound for pound that is the best way we have to kill serpents.

[Garath]

Think someone already mentioned it but a LR is meh against Eldar unless you think you will be going up against a serpent spam list.

 

However let's talk 6th ed Eldar not the dancers from last edition. They don't need an opening and you most certainly need Rhinos. In one turn a wave serpent with 12 12 10, a working shield (kiss your first pen good bye), and 3+ cover saves will be parked next to your army. Inside are 5 wraith with ap 2 Template flamers. Yep kids that's the 6th ed eldar version of a throw away suicide unit. You will blow so much fire power on the serpent you cant kill the wraiths if your marines are not in rhinos they are screwed. Depending on points you can expect up to 3 of these.

 

I would suggest sticking together with over lapping fields of fire. I would also suggest grav cannon centurions. One unit can clean sweep wraiths leaving the rest of your army to worry about the rushing serpents. Grav cannon cents are also a good threat to serpents. A 6 auto immobilizes if the serpent went flat out an immobilized result wrecks it! Pound for pound that is the best way we have to kill serpents.

 

   Eldar are still dancers- that much hasn't changed,  

 

  There's a simple solution for the "flamer to the face" problem.  Take a lot of tactical sqauds and combat sqaud them.  That way, the most models he can kill is 5.   

 

  Rhinos might work. Might.  They might take the enemy fire and survive, or they might blow up and your sqaud is left bunched up-to be flamed to death.

 

 

   Centurions

 

  I'm not sold.  They cost a lot of points. 3 of them cost more then a full squad of any  other troop .And have 6 wounds.  No save from rending(duh). Range of grav guns is 30" after move.

      All eldar skimmers outrange them- they will not live to fire a single shot. Even if they do, getting that 6+  is unreliable .  Skip them

[Grey Mage]

the question needs to be asked though.... why the flying frak is Wave serpents so overpowered like this?

Theyre not. People just arent taking the tools to kill them. They cost more than a vendetta.

[Captain Idaho]

Eldar are one of those armies that get disproportionately weaker as you kill them off. Weakening a few Wave Serpents won't stop the Eldar player from being able to jump and throw Xenos control around a table at their discretion. When you start concentrating your attention on the danger units at a time, the Eldar combined arms approach falls apart to specialists fighting alone, which gives an advantage to Marine players.

 

Don't discount Land Raiders in all comers lists just because of Eldar either. They anchor your own army with a unit that can only be killed a few ways, and for Eldar that usually means Fire Dragons, Wraith Guard or Bright Lances. They have other methods but these will be the most common. Looking at these methods you have essentially committed the opponent to launching an attack on your clumped up army just to try and get your Land Raider which means you've scored a great opportunity to take out his committed models, or just plain forced an opponent to reduce their Scatter Lasers numbers for lance shots (thus helping the rest of your army).

 

And it's fairly easy to put models in the way of a Fire Dragon attack so they can't get to close range. A 6" a turn advance with a Land Raider and a bunch of other stuff can lay down fire that is too much attrition for an Eldar player to cope (they start to worry when they realise they will start to lose a transport here and here at range) so they will commit to a full attack because the risk is they won't be able to later on.

[minigun762]

 

the question needs to be asked though.... why the flying frak is Wave serpents so overpowered like this?

Theyre not. People just arent taking the tools to kill them. They cost more than a vendetta.

If not overpowered, I would say that Wave Serpents are very cost effective for their price.

Part of this is the current nature of the 6th edition meta but packing 2.5 heavy weapons on a very durable and fast transport for the price of a basic Dreadnought is quite the deal.

[Captain Idaho]

I do agree. If we had something like that in our Codex it'd be a good 200pts.

[WarriorFish]

Please no more Dreadnought bashing, they've suffered enough...

Idaho is right, Eldar suffer from losses quicker - especially with good target selection. That's why hitting hard and fast is best as the sooner you reduce their strength the less you suffer. From there onwards you further reduce his effectiveness each turn so he is unable to compete. Be systematic and no army is safe from how good it is - many of my victories are directly the result of this ruthless persecution of my opponent's ability to wage effective battle against me.

[bystrom]

A serpent+d-scythe wraiths aren't that bad. A 5-man tactical squad has pretty good odds of krak:ing a serpent to death (about 33% if my calculations are correct). Best situation is if you can place models on the rear armour (unlikely), or you get a crew stunned or shaken - that way you don't have to worry about them shooting one turn. If not, you've lost a 5-man squad, boo hoo. As long as the serpent died it was worth it.

 

Another unit that can completely kill off a land raider is a fire prism, inbetween guide/prescience from a farseer for twin-linked, S9, AP1 and lance, it destroys heavy vehicles quite easily.

[Grey Mage]

 

 

the question needs to be asked though.... why the flying frak is Wave serpents so overpowered like this?

Theyre not. People just arent taking the tools to kill them. They cost more than a vendetta.

If not overpowered, I would say that Wave Serpents are very cost effective for their price.

Part of this is the current nature of the 6th edition meta but packing 2.5 heavy weapons on a very durable and fast transport for the price of a basic Dreadnought is quite the deal.

Still more expensive than a vendetta. And while its firepower is strong, its all mid strength- youre getting good armor saves against it, and heavy armored vehicles largely dont care- glancing on a 6 isnt taking down combipreds anytime soon. Its a viable threat, but if theyre dropping the shield to shoot you then you should in turn be dropping the wave serpent with AP2-firepower.

[Captain Idaho]

As an Eldar player, perhaps you're a little biased? ;)

 

Pointing out a Vendetta is over powered doesn't mean a Wave Serpent isn't!

 

I was about to say, it's actually in our favour if they shoot at us! Dirty Eldar tricks and all, but if they are avoiding shooting at us with their crazy Serpent shield then we'll suffer a lot less damage at closer range. In reverse, they become easier to kill if they do use it.

[Grey Mage]

As an Eldar player, perhaps you're a little biased?

Pointing out a Vendetta is over powered doesn't mean a Wave Serpent isn't!

I was about to say, it's actually in our favour if they shoot at us! Dirty Eldar tricks and all, but if they are avoiding shooting at us with their crazy Serpent shield then we'll suffer a lot less damage at closer range. In reverse, they become easier to kill if they do use it.

Im an Eldar player who has better things to bring than a half dozen waveserpents. I think its a boring and cheap gimmick, and the only reason its working is that missile/las spam has fallen out of favor since mid-armor spam has fallen out of favor.

S7 can struggle against AV 12, and it seems to be what most people are truely spamming these days, with a bit of melta as backup. Well, a melta is no better than a ML against a shielded serpent- but at a quarter the range, and often less numbers for similar price. Against an unshielded serpent... well, I think your opponent is dumb to unshield their expensive transports when you have good anti tank weapons in close range.

And fine, the vendetta is a broken pain in my arse. The Landraider is just as survivable and has better firepower- so of course its more expensive. One could try to compare it to the stormraven- wich is a flyer, that doesnt have to hover to disembark, and has more effective TLd heavy firepower, an anti air role, and can bring in two (and a dread) squads at once- compared to that, a 65pt price drop seems pretty reasonable, and the switch from HS to dedicated transport is an important point, to be sure, but given that skimmers are vulnerable to skyfire weapons without the advantages vs non skyfire weapons I think its a reasonable price point.

[Kaedes Nex]

I would gladly forego taking Stormravens to field Vendettas.

[Garath]

I would gladly forego taking Stormravens to field Vendettas.

Same here. just as I would forego taking a Predator destructor or the new SM AA tanks for a Hydra