Beating the Eldar

[tdemayo]

I've played a bit with the new Eldar Codex, both as marines and (heresy!) as Eldar.

 

Wave Serpents are quite powerful, but they can be killed. In fact, in my experience, most of them WILL die in the course of a game.  (Or maybe that's just mine.)  They are pretty survivable at range, and have good firepowerpower, but I've found their biggest weakness is that they can't get too close to the enemy and live.  A tac marine with a krak grenade charging one always hits the rear armor.  Boom! The elves inside are squishy, especially the cheap and common Dire Avengers, and are vulnerable to massed bolter fire.

 

So they are pretty good at prancing around at the 24" range and wounding marines on foot on a 2+.  But they have a lot of trouble closing and sealing the deal.

 

When playing as a Marine player, I know the helpless feeling of having my models scooped up by the handful from  scatter laser, shield and shuriken cannon.  It feels like there's nothing you can do to survive all that fire incoming.  But bear in mind that on the other side of the table, the Eldar player is worried (and rightly so) about getting too close to any Marines that survive.  Your surviving squads constrict the movement of his vehicles, and your potential counter-attacks can dictate his options.

 

Case in point:  This weekend I fielded 2k of Eldar against a Marine army. I had 4 serpents with DAs, two Wraithknights (I'd just finsihed painting them and wanted to try them out), and two Crimson Hunters.  He had two tac sqauds with Assault Cannon RBs, A Land Raider Redeemer with Assault Centurians, two land speeders, a stalker, some scouts with sniper rifles, an infiltrating CC scout squad (weird huh?), 5 devies with flakk ML and 5 devies with Lascannons, and Tigurius.  By the end of the game we'd both suffered ridiculous losses.  I had I think a few remnant DA squads, a WS and a WK left.  I lost my Autarch. He had a 2-3 squads with 1 or 2 marines left.  But he won because he got Tigurius and a 5 man combat squad into my deployment zone and scored linebreaker.

 

I spent most of the game trying to keep distance from even very small tactical squads and quite light vehicles (like Land Speeders).  Every time I tried to break through and reach the Marine objective, I had to worry about being assaulted or flanked.  In the end, my opponent played to the mission, despite heavy losses, while my Eldar dithered and died.

 

So, lesson:  Even a non-optimized Marine army, played well and to the missions, is quite viable against Eldar.

[Axagoras]

 

 

 

the question needs to be asked though.... why the flying frak is Wave serpents so overpowered like this?

Theyre not. People just arent taking the tools to kill them. They cost more than a vendetta.

If not overpowered, I would say that Wave Serpents are very cost effective for their price.

Part of this is the current nature of the 6th edition meta but packing 2.5 heavy weapons on a very durable and fast transport for the price of a basic Dreadnought is quite the deal.

Still more expensive than a vendetta. And while its firepower is strong, its all mid strength- youre getting good armor saves against it, and heavy armored vehicles largely dont care- glancing on a 6 isnt taking down combipreds anytime soon. Its a viable threat, but if theyre dropping the shield to shoot you then you should in turn be dropping the wave serpent with AP2-firepower.

A wave serpent is only 10 more then a vendetta but has a static 4+ cover save... with that in mind vs missile launchers it takes 18 missiles to glance it down (18 shots, 12 hits, 6 results, and 3 failed cover saves) so unless there taking IF trip dev squads it will take over a turn to pop one with long range firepower alone. also it fires so many high strength shots at range that can easily wipe out 5 man marine squads with no problem. The only way to nuke one is to pod in behind it but the cheapest option for that it a command squad in a pod for around 200 which will be wiped out for a net loss of 60 points on your end.

[Garath]

Lucius Pattern Drop pod+ Venerable/Ironclad?

[Grey Mage]

 

 

I would gladly forego taking Stormravens to field Vendettas.

Same here. just as I would forego taking a Predator destructor or the new SM AA tanks for a Hydra

Yet the IG players cry about how the Hydra sucks compared to the broadside, and so on and so forth.

Everyone wants the toys they dont have, because those are the ones they miss.

 

the question needs to be asked though.... why the flying frak is Wave serpents so overpowered like this?

Theyre not. People just arent taking the tools to kill them. They cost more than a vendetta.

If not overpowered, I would say that Wave Serpents are very cost effective for their price.
Part of this is the current nature of the 6th edition meta but packing 2.5 heavy weapons on a very durable and fast transport for the price of a basic Dreadnought is quite the deal.

Still more expensive than a vendetta. And while its firepower is strong, its all mid strength- youre getting good armor saves against it, and heavy armored vehicles largely dont care- glancing on a 6 isnt taking down combipreds anytime soon. Its a viable threat, but if theyre dropping the shield to shoot you then you should in turn be dropping the wave serpent with AP2-firepower.

A wave serpent is only 10 more then a vendetta but has a static 4+ cover save... with that in mind vs missile launchers it takes 18 missiles to glance it down (18 shots, 12 hits, 6 results, and 3 failed cover saves) so unless there taking IF trip dev squads it will take over a turn to pop one with long range firepower alone. also it fires so many high strength shots at range that can easily wipe out 5 man marine squads with no problem. The only way to nuke one is to pod in behind it but the cheapest option for that it a command squad in a pod for around 200 which will be wiped out for a net loss of 60 points on your end.

Valkyire has a better armament vs tanks, period, and never flubs the twin linked part. Also, only hitting on 6s youre looking at ~36 missile hits to take it down. *shrugs* Thats not counting if it evades. The DP would be even less effective in most cases vs it, just because its a flyer. Period.

And if youre doing it turn one, it doesnt have a cover save. And Devastator squads are hardly the only option. And these darn youngins are so busy shooting their shields I rarely hear about the 2+ to downgrade to glancing really, wich makes them in turn quite vulnerable to lascannons OR lacking in firepower, they cant be shooty and survivable.

Lucius Pattern Drop pod+ Venerable/Ironclad?

Cant assault out of a lucius on the drop anymore.

[Silvs]

And why is that?

[Garath]

  Can't do it?  (droppod+assault )  Did i miss a meeting?    What's the point in taking it then?

 

  I don't want a Wave serpant , Vendetta or the Hydra.  I want the models in the game to be correctly priced .  

 

 

   But, let's get back to topic -  How to beat Eldar

      Pointy ears sure cannot take a hit.   I did talk about this im my second (long) post.  Reducing the firepower coming our way should be done by shooting the squishy stuff first.    Shooting that unit of warwalkers might seem like a secodary thing, but they will kill a lot of stuff if left  alone early on

[totallynotchaos]

My brother plays Eldar, and while I mostly play nids (and therefore rarely have problems with their vehicles thanks to hive guard) I have found that destroying scatter lasers is vital, especially with their new twin linking rules. The have effectively become the markerlights of the Eldar.

 

Thankfully, their shuriken weapons are, for the part, painfully short ranged. But still nasty.

 

Also, word of warning: The Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders can be surprisingly devestating. Thankfully shining spears still suck at their job.

[Scarrie]

It's interesting the different experiences people have, I've played my mates Eldar many times and not once has he fired the Wave Serpent blast thingy.

I'm playing in my very first tournament this weekend so it will be interesting to see if I come up against a new Eldar player and whether they utilise it.

 

I also agree that Warp Spiders are surprisingly nasty, I've had a quite a lot of marines killed by those things!

 

I also concur with the viewpoint that if Eldar get close, they're dead, generally speaking. I have to grind Wave Serpents/Fire Prisms etc down from range but if they/I get close then they go down pretty easily in my experience.

[Garath]

Comment on Scarrie's post.

 

  Different experiences are to be expected since we all play with the same ruleset, but the armies fielded and the opponents we face are very different indeed.  

 

   First and foremost comes table experience .  You cannot pull off a cheap trick against a veteran since he's seen it,talked about it a can prevent it from working.  Veteran competitive players also have a thing for effective units  and incorporate several "safety" layers into their game plan ( If you try tactic A, he counters with B.  Then you try fixing A, and he turns the game around with xy).

    I know I explained it in a very blunt way- but hope to point came across.

 

        Second thing to consider is cash. Building a specific list gets expensive fast- and we all know it's not going to last very long , so most people avoid it altogether. So you might encounter an IG list with a bit of everything , or Ellysian drop troops.  The latter, however, will be less common.

 

     Thirdly , play style.  I like fielding terminators and tacticals.  I love tacticals.  I don't like devastators and assault marines.  So I never field them.    We can have a discussion about those units, and agree that they might work better in some lists, more then in others.  Someone might convince me that they do not fit into specific list I post here.

   At the end of the day, I want to have fun while playing- so I will be more likely to field units that I find fun.

[Captain Idaho]

Eldar and Marines are funny together really. Eldar pack a wallop but can't weather one back as easily, yet Marines can soak s beating yet sometimes struggle to do as much damage as other armies in a short space of time.

 

There are obvious exceptions to this but still.

[Scarrie]

Comment on Scarrie's post.

 

  Different experiences are to be expected since we all play with the same ruleset, but the armies fielded and the opponents we face are very different indeed.  

 

   First and foremost comes table experience .  You cannot pull off a cheap trick against a veteran since he's seen it,talked about it a can prevent it from working.  Veteran competitive players also have a thing for effective units  and incorporate several "safety" layers into their game plan ( If you try tactic A, he counters with B.  Then you try fixing A, and he turns the game around with xy).

    I know I explained it in a very blunt way- but hope to point came across.

 

        Second thing to consider is cash. Building a specific list gets expensive fast- and we all know it's not going to last very long , so most people avoid it altogether. So you might encounter an IG list with a bit of everything , or Ellysian drop troops.  The latter, however, will be less common.

 

     Thirdly , play style.  I like fielding terminators and tacticals.  I love tacticals.  I don't like devastators and assault marines.  So I never field them.    We can have a discussion about those units, and agree that they might work better in some lists, more then in others.  Someone might convince me that they do not fit into specific list I post here.

   At the end of the day, I want to have fun while playing- so I will be more likely to field units that I find fun.

 

I totally agree about fielding units I enjoy.

I often field a LR Redeemer, it only gets to fire it's Flamestorm cannons in anger about half the time I'd say and it's probably not the best LR for my army but when it works it's so hilariously satisfying that I stick with it.

[totallynotchaos]

That's true. Even with Hit and Run and their heavy aspect armor, Warp Spiders can have a fairly short life expectancy. Although you need to beware of autarchs, my brother uses a squad of Spiders to get a fully kitted Autarch with a Warp pack. I almost never manage to kill all of them with shooting, and that guy is surprisingly ridiculous in CC. Plus he has the suicide bomb thing.

 

I have yet to go up against their artillery piece, shadow weaver or something. Anyone have an accurate measure of how damaging it is?

[Scarrie]

That's true. Even with Hit and Run and their heavy aspect armor, Warp Spiders can have a fairly short life expectancy. Although you need to beware of autarchs, my brother uses a squad of Spiders to get a fully kitted Autarch with a Warp pack. I almost never manage to kill all of them with shooting, and that guy is surprisingly ridiculous in CC. Plus he has the suicide bomb thing.

 

I have yet to go up against their artillery piece, shadow weaver or something. Anyone have an accurate measure of how damaging it is?

 

It can be nasty to units camped in the back field. The one time I've faced a battery of them they slowly whittled down my Dev squad and a Tac squad camped on an objective.

They don't seem devastating to Marines but can be an annoyance and over the course of a game can deplete squads making them easier for other units to take out. Definitey a support unit.

[totallynotchaos]

 

That's true. Even with Hit and Run and their heavy aspect armor, Warp Spiders can have a fairly short life expectancy. Although you need to beware of autarchs, my brother uses a squad of Spiders to get a fully kitted Autarch with a Warp pack. I almost never manage to kill all of them with shooting, and that guy is surprisingly ridiculous in CC. Plus he has the suicide bomb thing.

I have yet to go up against their artillery piece, shadow weaver or something. Anyone have an accurate measure of how damaging it is?

 

It can be nasty to units camped in the back field. The one time I've faced a battery of them they slowly whittled down my Dev squad and a Tac squad camped on an objective.

They don't seem devastating to Marines but can be an annoyance and over the course of a game can deplete squads making them easier for other units to take out. Definitey a support unit.

 

That's irritating. I suppose at least it's not as powerful as Imperial Guard artillery.

 

I'm at school, don't have my CRB on me. Dangerous terrain tests no longer deny you an armor save, correct?

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not afraid of Autarchs. I've got a Chapter Master who wants a word...

 

;)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm not afraid of Autarchs. I've got a Chapter Master who wants a word...

Yeah, me too. Bring the weak flesh to my hammer, you spindly little thing...

[totallynotchaos]

 

I'm not afraid of Autarchs. I've got a Chapter Master who wants a word...;)

 

Yeah, me too.  Bring the weak flesh to my hammer, you spindly little thing... :devil:

Well, yes, but remember that an Autarch is a surprisingly inexpensive HQ (70 base) that can deal horrendous damage when not sent up against something far out of its weight class. I doubt a player will drop their Autarch in such a stupid position.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm not afraid of Autarchs. I've got a Chapter Master who wants a word...

Yeah, me too. Bring the weak flesh to my hammer, you spindly little thing...

Well, yes, but remember that an Autarch is a surprisingly inexpensive HQ (70 base) that can deal horrendous damage when not sent up against something far out of its weight class. I doubt a player will drop their Autarch in such a stupid position.

You'd be surprised. My buddy, who is a tournament master with his Eldar -- seriously, he's one of the guys who was ROFLstomping folks in 5th Edition with them despite "Internet Wisdom" declaring their suckiness -- threw his Mask/bike/laser lance Autarch into close combat with a Riptide on Turn Two of a team tourney we went to, completely against my advice. I warned him what was going to happen, but he didn't listen, and the 'tide literally smashed the Autarch into a grimy paste on the landscape.

[totallynotchaos]

You'd be surprised. My buddy, who is a tournament master with his Eldar -- seriously, he's one of the guys who was ROFLstomping folks in 5th Edition with them despite "Internet Wisdom" declaring their suckiness -- threw his Mask/bike/laser lance Autarch into close combat with a Riptide on Turn Two of a team tourney we went to, completely against my advice. I warned him what was going to happen, but he didn't listen, and the 'tide literally smashed the Autarch into a grimy paste on the landscape.

... that's not really surprising. If a CM is out of an Autarchs class, a riptide definitely is.

 

Also, a mask/bike/lance Autarch? That's kind of a horrible loadout. I suppose it could take a chunk out of a unit with 3+ saves, and maybe pop a rhino.

 

Was he in a unit?

 

-edit-

 

Oh, I see. You were talking about how sometimes smart players can make dumb mistakes. Right, sorry.

[Grey Mage]

  Can't do it?  (droppod+assault )  Did i miss a meeting?    What's the point in taking it then?

 

  I don't want a Wave serpant , Vendetta or the Hydra.  I want the models in the game to be correctly priced .  

 

 

   But, let's get back to topic -  How to beat Eldar

      Pointy ears sure cannot take a hit.   I did talk about this im my second (long) post.  Reducing the firepower coming our way should be done by shooting the squishy stuff first.    Shooting that unit of warwalkers might seem like a secodary thing, but they will kill a lot of stuff if left  alone early on

Yep, the most recent update makes it an assault vehicle, and doesnt force you to disembark- so you can hide inside it for a turn if you like, then charge.

 

Oh, and it gives shrouding to itself and any dread touching it.

[WarriorFish]

I warned him what was going to happen, but he didn't listen, and the 'tide literally smashed the Autarch into a grimy paste on the landscape.

Say what you like about Eldars, but nobody deserves to have their model crushed. Did he at least apologise and offer to buy your buddy a new Autarch?

 

Anyone got some blurb on the Wraithguard units? They've always been high on my target priority but I've not yet encountered the new types so I'm wondering if there's anything I need to be on the look out for.

[Grey Mage]

 

I warned him what was going to happen, but he didn't listen, and the 'tide literally smashed the Autarch into a grimy paste on the landscape.

Say what you like about Eldars, but nobody deserves to have their model crushed. Did he at least apologise and offer to buy your buddy a new Autarch?

 

Anyone got some blurb on the Wraithguard units? They've always been high on my target priority but I've not yet encountered the new types so I'm wondering if there's anything I need to be on the look out for.

S10 AP2 or S4 AP2 flamers... still short ranged, but now they can be scoring AND in a wave serpent, and that adds a whole new dimension to them.

 

They **can** have battle focus- the shoot/run shenanigans- but it takes a psychic power and the use of the Iyanden suppliment. The AP 2 flamers are an upgrade, and you cannot under any circumstances mix them, mores the pity. I love the flamers though, D-scythes as theyre called, for clearing out units behind aegis lines, or blobs of battlesuits and drones. Good times. Its instant death on a two wound of 6, and causes damage on vehicles on a 6 too- something the S10 D-cannons dont really need a special rule for most of the time.

 

The Wraith Blades on the other hand are far less popular- becasue well, assault is less popular. Two AP3 sword attacks at high strength, or one at S7 AP2, with a 4++ to back up their decent armor saves. Same cheap price, just under a rhino per model. I think they aint horrible, but lacking even a single choice of assault vehicle means you will in fact see them coming. Low numbers of attacks combined with high toughness seem to make axes the favored way of taking them on the rare occaisions someone does... and I tend to agree. These really do IMHO require a spirit seer to be effective, so expect hijinks from that.

 

A squad in a serpent runs about... 330-380pts, without a psyker. So they are a significant investment. Of course, AP2 flamers will make mince meat of most things without storm shields, so getting those points back isnt really a matter of luck so much as it is application. And dont make the mistake of assaulting them- D3 auto hits per model will cause quite a dent, I promise. Shoot them down with plasma after you drop the serpent with missile fire. Id say a vindicator, but its short range makes that situational for non-BA players, and plasma is ubiquitous and perfect for the job. Bolters will just bounce off T6, but *shrugs* if you gottem, rollem.

 

They are less survivable than before though- no warlock in the unit, so you have to use the HQ choice... and fortune is far, far, far from guaranteed with a farseer, who is an entirely different HQ than the spiritseer who grants them battle focus etc.

[WarriorFish]

So more or less different tricks for the same old dog then? That's not too bad, thanks for the write up Grey

[Captain Idaho]

The biggest risk to us Marines players is the difficulties in dealing with multiple Wave Serpents under fire from so many shots. Rejoice if the Eldar players bring expensive but killy units as that means there won't be small squads of weakling Eldar to maximise how many Serpents get.

[Axagoras]

 

  Can't do it?  (droppod+assault )  Did i miss a meeting?    What's the point in taking it then?

 

  I don't want a Wave serpant , Vendetta or the Hydra.  I want the models in the game to be correctly priced .  

 

 

   But, let's get back to topic -  How to beat Eldar

      Pointy ears sure cannot take a hit.   I did talk about this im my second (long) post.  Reducing the firepower coming our way should be done by shooting the squishy stuff first.    Shooting that unit of warwalkers might seem like a secodary thing, but they will kill a lot of stuff if left  alone early on

Yep, the most recent update makes it an assault vehicle, and doesnt force you to disembark- so you can hide inside it for a turn if you like, then charge.

 

Oh, and it gives shrouding to itself and any dread touching it.

Yep its a sad change but now you can have a dreadnought acting like a trap door spider, runs out of the pod to mince a squad nearby then run back into it till the next prey comes along :P