Beating the Eldar

[Garath]

  interesting ....link anyone?  my search-fu is getting weak...

[Grey Mage]

  interesting ....link anyone?  my search-fu is getting weak...

I havent seen any discussion on it, and I know you didnt just ask for a link to a pirated copy on the open forum, as that would be an automatic warning since its against the rules.

 

You might consider starting a talk about it though...

[Garath]

 

  interesting ....link anyone?  my search-fu is getting weak...

I havent seen any discussion on it, and I know you didnt just ask for a link to a pirated copy on the open forum, as that would be an automatic warning since its against the rules.

 

You might consider starting a talk about it though...

 

  No, I wasn't asking for a Pirate copy.  I was talking about an official update...  is there one?  

[Grey Mage]

 

 

  interesting ....link anyone?  my search-fu is getting weak...

I havent seen any discussion on it, and I know you didnt just ask for a link to a pirated copy on the open forum, as that would be an automatic warning since its against the rules.

 

You might consider starting a talk about it though...

 

  No, I wasn't asking for a Pirate copy.  I was talking about an official update...  is there one?  

No its just a new book sadly.

[Gentlemanloser]

No one's mentioned Grav Bikes for taking out Serpents?

[Grey Mage]

Probably because eldar are highly effective at killing bikes?

[goosey_j]

 

  Can't do it?  (droppod+assault )  Did i miss a meeting?    What's the point in taking it then?

 

  I don't want a Wave serpant , Vendetta or the Hydra.  I want the models in the game to be correctly priced .  

 

 

   But, let's get back to topic -  How to beat Eldar

      Pointy ears sure cannot take a hit.   I did talk about this im my second (long) post.  Reducing the firepower coming our way should be done by shooting the squishy stuff first.    Shooting that unit of warwalkers might seem like a secodary thing, but they will kill a lot of stuff if left  alone early on

Yep, the most recent update makes it an assault vehicle, and doesnt force you to disembark- so you can hide inside it for a turn if you like, then charge.

 

Oh, and it gives shrouding to itself and any dread touching it.

 

Wait, so your saying that my drop pod units don't have to disembark the turn they show up?

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Probably because eldar are highly effective at killing bikes?

 

More so than killing Marines?

 

There was discussion about Grav (for killing Serpents and MCs) with the drawback being the lack of mobility Marines with Gravs have.

 

Bikes are more durable and have more mobility than Marines.  And Gravs wreck Serpents and MCs, the 'big bads' of the Eldar lists.

 

Why are they not a go to option?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

  Can't do it?  (droppod+assault )  Did i miss a meeting?    What's the point in taking it then?

 

  I don't want a Wave serpant , Vendetta or the Hydra.  I want the models in the game to be correctly priced .  

 

 

   But, let's get back to topic -  How to beat Eldar

      Pointy ears sure cannot take a hit.   I did talk about this im my second (long) post.  Reducing the firepower coming our way should be done by shooting the squishy stuff first.    Shooting that unit of warwalkers might seem like a secodary thing, but they will kill a lot of stuff if left  alone early on

Yep, the most recent update makes it an assault vehicle, and doesnt force you to disembark- so you can hide inside it for a turn if you like, then charge.

 

Oh, and it gives shrouding to itself and any dread touching it.

 

Wait, so your saying that my drop pod units don't have to disembark the turn they show up?

 

Only Dreadnoughts in Lucius-pattern pods.

[goosey_j]

 

 

 

  Can't do it?  (droppod+assault )  Did i miss a meeting?    What's the point in taking it then?

 

  I don't want a Wave serpant , Vendetta or the Hydra.  I want the models in the game to be correctly priced .  

 

 

   But, let's get back to topic -  How to beat Eldar

      Pointy ears sure cannot take a hit.   I did talk about this im my second (long) post.  Reducing the firepower coming our way should be done by shooting the squishy stuff first.    Shooting that unit of warwalkers might seem like a secodary thing, but they will kill a lot of stuff if left  alone early on

Yep, the most recent update makes it an assault vehicle, and doesnt force you to disembark- so you can hide inside it for a turn if you like, then charge.

 

Oh, and it gives shrouding to itself and any dread touching it.

 

Wait, so your saying that my drop pod units don't have to disembark the turn they show up?

 

Only Dreadnoughts in Lucius-pattern pods.

 

Oh right. Well that's much less exciting.

[Grey Mage]

 

Probably because eldar are highly effective at killing bikes?

 

More so than killing Marines?

 

There was discussion about Grav (for killing Serpents and MCs) with the drawback being the lack of mobility Marines with Gravs have.

 

Bikes are more durable and have more mobility than Marines.  And Gravs wreck Serpents and MCs, the 'big bads' of the Eldar lists.

 

Why are they not a go to option?

Well 1) I dont agree that theyre very good vs serpents and I expect a FAQ on the cover save thing before to long wich will make them even worse....

 

2) Dark reapers wipe units of bikes off the board, ignoring jink, without even thinking about it really. Its another one of those- its maybe good vs mechdar but itll suck against footdar things really.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes but people who take Dark Reapers aren't spamming those Warwalkers etc. It's good for the game basically!

[Grey Mage]

Hah, its true- the Hvy slot fills up about as fast as the fast attack slot does.... yikes. Still, one can easily take both.

[Scotyknows]

 

 stormraven- wich is a flyer, that doesnt have to hover to disembark, and has more effective TLd heavy firepower, an anti air role, and can bring in two (and a dread) squads at once.

Just so you know the rules for the storm ravens transport capacity reads...

 

{The Stormraven can carry two separate units: one unit of up to 12 models in its cabin, plus a single Dreadnought in its rear grapples.}

 

So it can only carry one unit of up to 12 models in the cabin.  It cannot carry 2 units of 5 marines or something like that. I've seen a few players try to sneak by with that one.

[Captain Idaho]

Don't forget we can Combat Squad and put both squads in the same transport.

[Grey Mage]

 

 

 stormraven- wich is a flyer, that doesnt have to hover to disembark, and has more effective TLd heavy firepower, an anti air role, and can bring in two (and a dread) squads at once.

Just so you know the rules for the storm ravens transport capacity reads...

 

{The Stormraven can carry two separate units: one unit of up to 12 models in its cabin, plus a single Dreadnought in its rear grapples.}

 

So it can only carry one unit of up to 12 models in the cabin.  It cannot carry 2 units of 5 marines or something like that. I've seen a few players try to sneak by with that one.

As Cpt Idaho stated, you can combat squad inside of it, giving one a very strong ability to alpha strike 5 targets from one transport.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Well 1) I dont agree that theyre very good vs serpents and I expect a FAQ on the cover save thing before to long wich will make them even worse....

 

If they get FAQed, expect the FAQ (as per the OR/Rumor thread) to make the Imobilized result strip another hull point.

 

2 6's any any vehicles bar a LR/Mono is dead.

 

 

2) Dark reapers wipe units of bikes off the board, ignoring jink, without even thinking about it really. Its another one of those- its maybe good vs mechdar but itll suck against footdar things really.

 

Dark reapers wipe units of Marines off the board.

 

And they don't get Jink saves.

 

So why are bikes not the option?

[Grey Mage]

Units of marines tend to use solid cover, and can actually be used at full effect inside cover, thus keeping a decent save. Also, you get more marines for your points than bikes, so each wound hurts less.

[Garath]

Units of marines tend to use solid cover, and can actually be used at full effect inside cover, thus keeping a decent save. Also, you get more marines for your points than bikes, so each wound hurts less.

 True,i've already talked about this- my second post in this topic.Or was it the first? 

[Gentlemanloser]

Units of marines tend to use solid cover, and can actually be used at full effect inside cover, thus keeping a decent save. Also, you get more marines for your points than bikes, so each wound hurts less.

 

I thought we we taling about the Eldar's massive mobility.

 

Staying in static cover (5+ at that, compared to the better Jink save possible for bikes) is just allowing the Eldar thier mobility, and does nothing to counter thier 'hard' units.

 

 

Same thing with bikes. They are mobile,true, and do have higher T. However , that doesn't make any difference since eldar guns have rending now....so the damage output of a 10 man guardian squad is the same against bikes and tacticals.

 

This isn't correct.

 

The rending lite is only on a 6, so for 5/6th of all Shuriken wounds caused, the Bikes have more durability than the Tacs.

[Garath]

 

Units of marines tend to use solid cover, and can actually be used at full effect inside cover, thus keeping a decent save. Also, you get more marines for your points than bikes, so each wound hurts less.

 

I thought we we taling about the Eldar's massive mobility.

 

Staying in static cover (5+ at that, compared to the better Jink save possible for bikes) is just allowing the Eldar thier mobility, and does nothing to counter thier 'hard' units.

 

 

>Same thing with bikes. They are mobile,true, and do have higher T. However , that doesn't make any difference since eldar guns have rending now....so the damage output of a 10 man guardian squad is the same against bikes and tacticals.

 

This isn't correct.

 

The rending lite is only on a 6, so for 5/6th of all Shuriken wounds caused, the Bikes have more durability than the Tacs.

 

 

   We have spent the first page of the topic rambling on how Eldar will be mobile no matter what you do, and how one of the best ways to counter this is :

 

a)take enough models that can take a hit - tacticals for example

b) not to take expensive models

 

   10 taticals cost around 170 pts give or take- with weapons

   that equals 6-7 bikes

 

  10 guardians fire 20 shots and kill around 2-3 tacticals (including cover and rending).  Or 2 bikes.

 

  The main difference here is the fact that tacticals have longer ranged weapons, are cheaper and (in case you need it) have more attacks for the points.

 

  ...if you have the time, read my first and second post- they are very down to earth.  

[WarriorFish]

Rambling seems a little harsh, I'd prefer "musing" :P

 

I don't think Gentleman is advocating taking Bikes exclusively or expecting them to suddenly turn the tide, but I can see how they'd be useful. They could match the Eldar for speed and draw attention away from other units. They could charge down vehicles with kraks and generally make a nuisance of themselves which I can't see as a bad thing - surrendering all the initiative to the enemy isn't wise so bikers would provide some push of your own.

 

Otherwise we start veering into "vacuum syndrome" when comparing units which is always shaky ground when dismissing something outright.

[Gentlemanloser]

I read all the posts in this thread.

 

The Eldar are mobile.  But no matter what you do?  You can slow them with Thunderfires (unless that round changed).  You can increase your mobility.  There are things you can do.

 

Also,

 

Versus Tacticals (In Cover);

 

20 Shots, 10 hits

1.667 Rends, (5+ Cover) 1.111 Casualties

3.333 Wounds, 1.111 Casualties

Total: 2.222

 

Versus Bikes (4+ Cover from Turbo/Skilled Rider);

20 Shots, 10 hits

1.667 Rends, 0.834 Casualties

1.667 Wounds, 0.6 Casualties

Total: 1.434

 

Normal Tac marines take about 55% more casulaties on average than SM Bikes.

 

With 7 bikes, you get about 42% more models in Tac Marines.

 

Lets not quibble about 13%, or static cover to Turboboosting/Skiled Riders or throw 'scout' into the equation.

 

Tacticals are no more durable than Bikes when facing Eldar.

 

And with Salvo Wepaon on Relentless Bikes (as well as Twin-Linked Bolters...) Bikes have more 'attacks'.  I hope thier Mobility isn't in question either.

[Grey Mage]

I read all the posts in this thread.

 

The Eldar are mobile.  But no matter what you do?  You can slow them with Thunderfires (unless that round changed).  You can increase your mobility.  There are things you can do.

 

Also,

 

Versus Tacticals (In Cover);

 

20 Shots, 10 hits

1.667 Rends, (5+ Cover) 1.111 Casualties

3.333 Wounds, 1.111 Casualties

Total: 2.222

 

Versus Bikes (4+ Cover from Turbo/Skilled Rider);

20 Shots, 10 hits

1.667 Rends, 0.834 Casualties

1.667 Wounds, 0.6 Casualties

Total: 1.434

 

Normal Tac marines take about 55% more casulaties on average than SM Bikes.

 

With 7 bikes, you get about 42% more models in Tac Marines.

 

Lets not quibble about 13%, or static cover to Turboboosting/Skiled Riders or throw 'scout' into the equation.

 

Tacticals are no more durable than Bikes when facing Eldar.

 

And with Salvo Wepaon on Relentless Bikes (as well as Twin-Linked Bolters...) Bikes have more 'attacks'.  I hope thier Mobility isn't in question either.

Now... lets remember that turboboosting bikes 1) Arent getting a cover save vs. Footdar DRs, nor are they as fast as eldar jetbikes or FA choices, 2) after rerolls are still getting fewer shots per point than tacticals or devastators, and 3) Arent dealing any damage the turn they turboboost. So if you want them to actually do damage then its 2.3 casualties vs those same shuricans, but more importantly:

 

S5/AP3 vs T4 with a 4+ cover save (because youre using hard cover, right? Right)- 10 hits, 6.6 wounds, 3.3 dead. Thats 46pts.

S5/AP3 vs T5 with no cover save (relying on a jink save you dont get)- 10 hits, 5 wounds, 5 dead. Thats 105pts.

OR

S4/AP2 vs T4 with ... no save, flamers....= 10 hits, 5 wounds, 5 dead- or 2.5 dead on your skyshield- thats 70pts.

S4/AP2 vs T5 with no save= 3.4 wounds, 3.4 dead- 72pts.

OR

S6/AP-/Rending- 10 hits, 1.6 rends, 6.6 wounds, for 3.8 dead- thats 53pts. Or if in solid cover 3 dead for 42pts.

S6/AP-/Rending- 10 hits, 1.6 rends, 4.8 wounds, for 3.2 dead- thats 68pts or if turboboosting and thus not shooting 2.4 dead or 50pts.

 

Or short version: Its rougher on a force when bikers die, and bikers cannot use their extra cover save reliably if they want to be dishing out damage. Many of the best marine killers are approximately as good at killing bikes as they are marines, while infantry forces can fire while in cover and use well placed heavy weaponry to force the eldar in closer.

 

This is why a conversation about fighting eldar isnt as simple as talking about shurican weaponry. Its quite possible- and viable- to make an army with nothing but a handful of twin linked catapults anywhere in the force- and that only on a few vehicles or a couple of jetbikes. Fighting vs mechdar requires you to have enough mobility or ranged anti-tank fire to force them to fight on your terms, vs footdar you need enough survivability to take their hits and enough 24-48" range weaponry to strike at them reliably- something marines excell at, but need numbers to back it up. If you dont know what youll be facing a heavily foot force with DP, Speeder, or biker support will give you the most bang for your buck.

 

Edit: Also, I love this mentality of "its only two sixes to wipe out a vehicle" considering all the whining I hear about needing 6's to hit flyers or wound wraithguard etc.

[El_Jairo]

It is very true that grav bikers won't shoot a vehicle to death but they can prep it to be killed in the assault after that.

 

This is why grav-cannon dev centurions are very promising on paper. If you can twin-link them they will kill any 3HP vehicle. Assuming that double immobilize takes away an additional HP.