Gentlemanloser Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Edit: Also, I love this mentality of "its only two sixes to wipe out a vehicle" considering all the whining I hear about needing 6's to hit flyers or wound wraithguard etc. Massive difference. One's an end result. The other is only the beginning in a chain of hardship. Right at the end, 2 6's then kills *anything* (bar a LR/Mono). Right at the start, you need a 6 to hit. Then you need to Glance/Pen. Then you need them to fail any saves (Not sure if any fliers can currently get saves...). Then you need to roll a damage result. No where near the same. Or short version: Bikes are about a durable as marines? That's the short version isn't it? But they have better mobility and far better shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3488540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 10 marines- 10 shots at 24", 140pts. 6.6 hits.7 Bikes- 7 shots at 24", 147pts. 6.1 hits, including rerolls. Pt for Pt nothing bolters better than a tactical marine, and when you add in the right chapter tactics it just looks worse for the bikers. You pay alot for the mobility and the toughness increase, the stable platform just makes special weapons viable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3488747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 10 marines- 10 shots at 24", 140pts. 6.6 hits. 7 Bikes- 7 shots at 24", 147pts. 6.1 hits, including rerolls. Pt for Pt nothing bolters better than a tactical marine, and when you add in the right chapter tactics it just looks worse for the bikers. Let's put chapter tactics to the side for now. That right there is where the money's at. Bikes would be a good idea if they had some rule like eldar jetbikes or Tau battlesuits - but they don't . It would be a very cool idea if they had heavy weapons .- but they don 't. (tho AB do) What further makes the bikes somewhat a sub par choice . If you advance forward away from the main force, the eldar will just engage them with multiple units . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3488805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 I think very few people will agree bikers are substandard against Eldar. In a vacuum then sure, they'll die. But they are a unit that is fairly cheap (5 with 2 Grav-guns and a combi grav comes in at just 145pts) and able to put pressure on opponents. Consider your Eldar opponent needs to decide whether to deal with the very imminent threat of bikers coming for them or your transports moving into position or your fire support hitting them consistently from afar. Not an easy choice eh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3489009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Indeed, I've fought Eldar enough times to know that just because they're more mobile that doesn't mean you should give up maintaining your own mobility. Give them tricksy xenos something to worry about and buy your main force the breathing space to get into position and deliver the goods :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3489039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Those bikes will die. And when they do, it's just an easy KP-or even worse- First Blood Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3489061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonah Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Those bikes will die. And when they do, it's just an easy KP-or even worse- First Blood This is my problem with them. Their mobility suffers because they're an obvious target for focus-firing, so they spend most of their time dodging bullets rather than dishing out the pain. Pretty much everything is good at killing them - templates, massed fire, AP2/3 shots... I'm having to hide them behind buildings until they can pop out and shoot. They're a massively cool unit, don't get me wrong, and on paper they're devastating, but in practice a decent opponent will sweep them off the board in no time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3489097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Those bikes will die. And when they do, it's just an easy KP-or even worse- First Blood Those Marines will die. And when they do, it's just an easy KP-or even worse- First Blood Especially when shot by Dark Reapers. 10 marines- 10 shots at 24", 140pts. 6.6 hits. 7 Bikes- 7 shots at 24", 147pts. 6.1 hits, including rerolls. Pt for Pt nothing bolters better than a tactical marine, and when you add in the right chapter tactics it just looks worse for the bikers. And now add in Special/Heavy Weapons and attack bikes. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3489101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 First Blood goes both ways. If the opponents don't get them quickly then we can get them. And killing bikers as a first blood risk is much less of a priority than Rhinos. It's easier. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3489118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 It's practically impossible to score first blood on a tactical squad- just place sarge behind a tall wall,outside LOS. The rest of the unit does congo line and you're good to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3489124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Vehicles are the big risk with First Blood. You can still win without it though, either through table dominance or killing the Warlord but retaining your own. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3489141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 It's practically impossible to score first blood on a tactical squad- just place sarge behind a tall wall,outside LOS. The rest of the unit does congo line and you're good to go. Garath, I'm not just going to change your quote again, but consider what you just typed. That can be applied to Bikes as well. And next turn you can 12" move them and do the same thing again. Or, the Eldar use thier massive mobility to move into LoS with your Sarge... Anyway, this discussion of First Blood doesn't really have anything to do with combatting the Eldar. I'm just surprised that Gravs were mentioned as Eldar killers, but with mobilty/range as thier weakness, and Bike versions (which rather negate the mobility/Range weakness) just seemed to be dismissed. Especially as a combination of Drop Pod/Bike Gravs seems to be the staple go to 'power' build for Marines now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3489178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 It's an Eldar conspiracy to limit the Internet approved army lists that can cope with Eldar supremacy! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3489473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Them sneaky pointy eared freaks! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3489562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 It's practically impossible to score first blood on a tactical squad- just place sarge behind a tall wall,outside LOS. The rest of the unit does congo line and you're good to go. Garath, I'm not just going to change your quote again, but consider what you just typed. That can be applied to Bikes as well. And next turn you can 12" move them and do the same thing again. Or, the Eldar use thier massive mobility to move into LoS with your Sarge... Anyway, this discussion of First Blood doesn't really have anything to do with combatting the Eldar. I'm just surprised that Gravs were mentioned as Eldar killers, but with mobilty/range as thier weakness, and Bike versions (which rather negate the mobility/Range weakness) just seemed to be dismissed. Especially as a combination of Drop Pod/Bike Gravs seems to be the staple go to 'power' build for Marines now. Perhaps I was unclear. You have a 10 man tactical squad that doesn't need to advance much to engage the enemy with it's best weapon - heavy weapon. Then you find a piece of terrain tall enought to hide a single small based model out of LOS-the sarge . The rest od the unit moves,shoots -whatever. You can stretch the unit up to almost 30". All the while that sarge will keep the squad alive , and his combi flamer ready. Bikes cannot do that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3489652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 10 man units wasting time firing a heavy weapon at a tank are grossly inefficient in Codex Space Marines since like 3rd edition. With split fire then sure, but you limit the points you can spend on offensive weapons and units this way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3490006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Garath, what are you trying to advocate here? Streaching a conga line of marines out of Cover? That's bad for a number of reasons. Also don't forget that in order for the Marines to shoot thier Heavy, they forgo all mobilty (Snap Shots are terrible). Unlike Bikes. Anyone can hide units for a turn or two to try to stop First Blood. But FB is so easy to get (Unless you plan specifically for it, like going second with a full reserve army) it's usually not worth the bother worrying about. It's also harder to hide a Rhino, as has been mentioned. And again, this isn't really relevant for taking on the Eldar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3490042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 It's an Eldar conspiracy to limit the Internet approved army lists that can cope with Eldar supremacy! Nah, I just honestly dont think theyre that great. On the other hand.... Alot of eldar players dont take variety in their lists like alot of marine players dont, so if youre just fighting cookie cutter net lists all the time, then go for it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3490046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 I think White Scars chatper tactics has a lot to do with it. Bikes that; Are scoring Have Scout Have H&R Have +1 Jink Save. Edit: I forgot the auto pass dangerous terrain tests... Consider the Jink save bonus. There's been a lot of talk about utilising Cover. Well on the move (not even turbo-boosting) WS Bikes have a 4+ Cover Save. Just for moving. And being relentless, why wouldn't you move them? If they Turbo, that increases to 3+. If you're going first, you can scout them closer, then move 12", gain a 4+ Cover save in the open and Relentlessly shoot your Heavy/special weapons of choice to full effect. You can even finish with an Assault to tie up any return shooting, and Hit and run away form it, to carry on shooting. With increased Strength Hammer of Wrath attack to boot. Or you can have 10 Marines, static, in 5+ Cover to shoot a single Heavy Weapon. Or their bolters, if you're lucky enough that your enemy moves to within 18" of you... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3490108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyJZuko Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 How does everyone feel about using drop pods to minimize Eldar mobility. Thinking of dropping in a 10-man tac with flamer and combi-flamer and a dreadnought (either ironclad w/ 2 heavy flamers or standard with ass. cannon and heavy flamer) in two drop pods on turn one right on top of some of the squishy troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3490248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Drop Pods will only dictate your own mobility against Eldar - and only briefly at that. Once you get disembark you're yomping across the table and I'm sure you can imagine how that could end up against the nippy Eldar and their mean guns. I don't see it being very reliable or effective unless you can deliver a crippling strike right off the bat which seems unlikely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3490270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 If they're Serpent heavy, they'll just skimmer over/around Drop Pods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3490272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Potentially that'll put them in between two swathes of enemy units so it's not necessarily bad for them to just nip over the top of us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3490321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Ive had good success using DPs- but as a SW force the extra specials likely make the difference there. Though, you could make up some of it using combi weapons. Id be interested in the overall viability of 5 man squads with combi+matching special in a DP as the backbone of the force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3490595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Don't forget Ultramarines enable you to use Tactical Doctrine if needed. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281003-beating-the-eldar/page/4/#findComment-3490627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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