Greyall Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 A distinction should be made Thing One: Breaking an edict that was shown to be a conspiracy by the Chaos Gods after it was found that it prevented the Astartes from using their most powerful weapon against Daemons. Thing Another: Disobeying said edict from the start before the Chaos plot was uncovered, like Magnus and Russ did. The Imperium secundus makes sense at the time and with the info available, and you can see Guilliman, the Lion and, I assume, Sanguinius are incredibly uncomfortable about doing it. I do hope this 'they broke the Salamanders' fluff' chorus will subside by the time someone realizes there's half an Heresy to be written yet. An Heresy in which, again, ressurrection is common. Failing that, retcons are available and absolutely not earth-shattering. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopkins Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 imperium secundus is not official, it's a backup, a disaster recovery plan the ruinstorm has blinded them, worst case scenario is terra has gone. with everyone on it sanguinius insists that at the first sign of terra, the plan goes in the bin but he doesn't appear to have misgivings as depicted in the covert art roboute doesn't want it, as it makes him seem like horus the lion is the lion, he has massive trust issues, holds too many secrets, but he seems happy with it this was all off the table, no remembrancers witness it, which is why it's unremembered .... they are not disloyal, or traitors, or usurpers at all Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 A distinction should be made Thing One: Breaking an edict that was shown to be a conspiracy by the Chaos Gods after it was found that it prevented the Astartes from using their most powerful weapon against Daemons. Thing Another: Disobeying said edict from the start before the Chaos plot was uncovered, like Magnus and Russ did. That doesn't matter at all for me. The Emperor's orders are the Emperor's orders. Guilliman apparently thought he knew better than the Emperor and reworked the Librarius. You can make all the distinctions you want, but at the end of the day Guilliman is still disobeying the Emperor's orders. (What did the Emperor say at Nikaea? That he would cast down anyone who disobeyed his edict or something like that? I don't have my copy of A Thousand Sons on me) And was Nikaea widely known as a Chaos plot? There was revealed to be some behind the scenes manipulation by chaos daemons to affect the outcome, but was it widely known to be a Chaos plot by Guilliman and the others? I don't recall any such statement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Andrew Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 All I want to know at this point is do the Ultramarines and Guillimanthe get any badass moments or are they simply the re to make everyone else look awesome? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 On Librarians Doesn't matter anymore really. The Emperor will be dead before any punishment can be handed out. Now its stupid to argue about it. On Curze The ONLY reason this Crispin Glover-esque character is getting as much word count as he is is strictly because of A D-B. On Vulkan These guys aren't GRR Martin, aint nobody dying for good up in here. He is a perpetual, he will come back eventually in some weirdly written plot device by Nick Kyme that will totally ruin the continuity. On Guilliman Maybe its the summary, but everybody is really making it look like the Imperium Secundus never actually existed since Kurze showed up so all the Night Lord fans got their jollies at seeing him :cuss up the Ultras. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 On Librarians Doesn't matter anymore really. The Emperor will be dead before any punishment can be handed out. Now its stupid to argue about it. Guilliman was never punished for it yes, but my point is that he disobeyed the Emperor's clear orders. He simply had the good luck to never be punished for his oathbreaking. Instead he got a chance to shape the new Imperium while Magnus suffered the punishment instead. Well, nobody said life was fair. At least Dorn remained true to the Emperor's words. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopkins Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 slight difference between what magnus did and the other guys using librarians again and by the time the siege of terra happens, who knows what the orders are malcador may give them the nod anyway Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 That doesn't matter at all for me. The Emperor's orders are the Emperor's orders. Guilliman apparently thought he knew better than the Emperor and reworked the Librarius. You can make all the distinctions you want, but at the end of the day Guilliman is still disobeying the Emperor's orders. (What did the Emperor say at Nikaea? That he would cast down anyone who disobeyed his edict or something like that? I don't have my copy of A Thousand Sons on me) And was Nikaea widely known as a Chaos plot? There was revealed to be some behind the scenes manipulation by chaos daemons to affect the outcome, but was it widely known to be a Chaos plot by Guilliman and the others? I don't recall any such statement. "For me" being the key words here... Of course they're disobeying the Emperor's orders, but can't you really find any distinction between a Legion never enforcing the Edict and another which enforces it and then disobeys for a greater purpose. If I recall correctly, the Lion at least (and I think Guilliman and Sanguinius as well - not so sure here) come to the logically easy conclusion that the events that lead to the Space Marines losing their greatest weapon against the Warp seem mighty suspicious, especially since the Warp came to their doorsteps right after Nikaea. And like Marshal says, it's a greater purpose. The Chaos forces that are about to destroy the Imperium can only be destroyed if they disobey an order given by a soon-to-be-dead Emperor (if they don't disobey him). As any person would, the loyal Primarchs do what must be done and then deal with the consequences later - at least that'll mean they're still alive. Edit: Also, you assume Imperial Fists Librarians will just use their Bolters until the very end of the Heresy. You willing to bet on it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 slight difference between what magnus did and the other guys using librarians again and by the time the siege of terra happens, who knows what the orders are malcador may give them the nod anyway But until then Guilliman is breaking the Emperor's orders. There is probably a difference between Magnus and Guilliman's use of Librarians, but it doesn't matter at all for me. After all the distinctions and explanations are made, the fact remains that Guilliman is still breaking the Emperor's orders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopkins Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 how long do you follow orders, if to all intents and purposes, the person who gave said order is assumed dead? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Looking at the base actions without circumstances is the cornerstone of injustice, Gree. Although your best argument is that Guilliman acts and feels as if on the edge of treason - because conscience. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 "For me" being the key words here... Of course they're disobeying the Emperor's orders, but can't you really find any distinction between a Legion never enforcing the Edict and another which enforces it and then disobeys for a greater purpose. After all the distinctions and the explanations have been made, the fact remains that Guilliman is still disobeying the Emperor's orders. You can take that however you want, but Guilliman is certainly disobedient and thus disloyal, hence why I condemn him. If Magnus is regarded as a traitor then Guilliman is a traitor as well. Anything else is a double standard. And like Marshal says, it's a greater purpose. The Chaos forces that are about to destroy the Imperium can only be destroyed if they disobey an order given by a soon-to-be-dead Emperor (if they don't disobey him). As any person would, the loyal Primarchs do what must be done and then deal with the consequences later - at least that'll mean they're still alive. Better dead and loyal than living and treacherous. Edit: Also, you assume Imperial Fists Librarians will just use their Bolters until the very end of the Heresy. You willing to bet on it? If they don't then they're traitors as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Something bad happened to the Imperial Fists librarians. It was mentioned in one of the books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verity Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Didn't Dorn lock them all up, or something? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Aye, well pointed. But they're not dead, I think. Bringing them back from imprisonment to save the day would be pretty awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Didn't Dorn lock them all up, or something? Yes. Dorn locked away all of his legion's Librarians deep within Phalanx, to sit in meditation, rather than send them back to the rank and file where they might pose a danger to their battle brothers. Garro wound up sneaking onto Phalanx to borrow one of them for the fledgling Inquisition that he's forming for Malcador. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3481951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 That'd be a heck of a prison. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3482014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Well, according to the old fluff, the Phalanx comes crashing down, so I'd expect Dorn to save his Astartes psykers and get them out before the boom. So they'll be out, eventually. This is off-topic, though. Very nice to see the Lion interact with his brothers, he tries to do the right thing while listening to his suspicions. Interestingly, Guilliman seems much more familiar with the suspicions part of the Lion. He seems to be mistrusted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3482040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 The sky-fortress crashes down, not the Phalanx :P The phalanx is as big as the moon! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3482045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Ah, my mistake. It's not THAT big, though.... http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/129/88911c8871cf4dd3b3e5325f0334f427/l.png Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3482046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 @Gree: No. When one teleports, they enter directly into the warp, typically with a transponder to guide them in or some sort of sensoria directing them forward. Vulkan did a blind teleportation jump. It resulted in him going from somewhere in the Eastern Fringe roughly one year after Istvaan V to Macragge three years after Istvaan V. He is a timelord in the same vein as Talos and Co and most CSM to one degree or another. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3482116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosco Toppings Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Meanwhile on Terra: "I spy with m-" "ONE more time, Sigismund and I'll throw you off this battlement myself!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3482124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 The idea behind Vulkan in this book makes sense to the point as to why Vulkan simply disappeared throughout the rest of the Heresy, only to spring up near the end to argue about chapters and relics etc. Perhaps Vulkan will be the most major change to lore in that he becomes the guardian of a gate to the Emperor's Palace at the end? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3482131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 @Gree: No. When one teleports, they enter directly into the warp, typically with a transponder to guide them in or some sort of sensoria directing them forward. Vulkan did a blind teleportation jump. It resulted in him going from somewhere in the Eastern Fringe roughly one year after Istvaan V to Macragge three years after Istvaan V. He is a timelord in the same vein as Talos and Co and most CSM to one degree or another. I was referring to his ''immortality'' and possibility of return, not his time travel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3482135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Still no. Time Lords regenerate with each regeneration being basically a new person who retains all of the previous memories. Vulkan is more like Vandal Savage, that one guy from Star Trek the Original series, Highlander, Ramirez and the Kurgan. Effectively immortal and virtually able to survive death. Although Vulkan can survive being gutted with a forkhaving his head removed. EDIT: By "that one guy from Star Trek TOS", I mean Flint from the episode "Requiem for Methuselah" who had been alive for 6,000 years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/6/#findComment-3482142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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