Scribe Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 I dont see it as Anti-Ultramarine/Rob at all. I can almost put myself in those shoes. "Seriously, you guys, again? Go back up the stairs, you're annoying." I...just supremely dislike what they have done with the Wolves, completely at every step including and after Prospero Burns. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3483429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorWesJanson Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 "For me" being the key words here... Of course they're disobeying the Emperor's orders, but can't you really find any distinction between a Legion never enforcing the Edict and another which enforces it and then disobeys for a greater purpose. After all the distinctions and the explanations have been made, the fact remains that Guilliman is still disobeying the Emperor's orders. You can take that however you want, but Guilliman is certainly disobedient and thus disloyal, hence why I condemn him. If Magnus is regarded as a traitor then Guilliman is a traitor as well. Anything else is a double standard. Disobedient does not equal disloyal. It's not a double standard, but a false equivalence. And Guilliman reinstates the Librarium, a controlled use of Astartes psykers, as does Sanguinus, and IIRC the Lion. Magnus traffics in straight up sorcery and warpcraft, using that power to rip a hole to Terra melting part of the Golden Throne and ruining the Emperor's human webway project. Guilliman and others brought back Librarians as they were one of the only effective tools against the daemonic allies working to tear down the Imperium. As for why Guilliman was not punished? Why should he be? At that point, the Emperor had defacto rescinded the Edict. WD 261 even mentions that he led Blood Angels and Imperial Fists Librarians (see, they do have them, Dorn isn't exempt) to counter the Sorcerers of the Thousand Sons. Magnus was disobedient, and was intended to be punished (changed to destroyed thanks to some manipulation by Horus and some others). Then he actively took up arms against the Emperor's forces on Terra, and proved his disloyalty and deserved the title of traitor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Disobedient does not equal disloyal. It's not a double standard, but a false equivalence. And Guilliman reinstates the Librarium, a controlled use of Astartes psykers, as does Sanguinus, and IIRC the Lion. Magnus traffics in straight up sorcery and warpcraft, using that power to rip a hole to Terra melting part of the Golden Throne and ruining the Emperor's human webway project. Guilliman and others brought back Librarians as they were one of the only effective tools against the daemonic allies working to tear down the Imperium. That doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter what reasons Guilliman did it for. At the end of the day he broke the law and ignored the Emperor's orders. He's a traitor in my eyes, along with several others of the ''loyalist'' Primarchs. As for why Guilliman was not punished? Why should he be? At that point, the Emperor had defacto rescinded the Edict. WD 261 even mentions that he led Blood Angels and Imperial Fists Librarians (see, they do have them, Dorn isn't exempt) to counter the Sorcerers of the Thousand Sons. Such fluff was from before the BL retcon of the Emperor banning all psykers. You cite fluff from the days when the Emperor permitted Librarians at Nikaea, but banned sorcery. Now in the more modern fluff the Emperor has banned all psykers at Nikaea. Perhaps the Emperor might rescind Nikaea in the future, but as of now he has not and that makes Guilliman an oathbreaker. ''Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion shall maintain a Librarius department. All it's warriors and instructors must return to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers. Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy and I will visit such destruction on him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my might,''-A Thousand Sons. pg. 356 Those are the Emperor's current orders regarding Librarians. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 On a side note, just got told mine have been dispatched. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorWesJanson Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 That doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter what reasons Guilliman did it for. At the end of the day he broke the law and ignored the Emperor's orders. He's a traitor in my eyes, along with several others of the ''loyalist'' Primarchs. Again, Disobedient does not equal traitor. None of the loyalist Primarchs took up arms against the Emperor. And do you include Johnson, Sanguinus, and Khan is your "traitor you my eyes" list? And even Dorn disobeyed the letter of the Emperor's decree- he didn't exactly disband the librarium and return them to the ranks, he simply put all of the Librarians into isolation on the Phalanx. Such fluff was from before the BL retcon of the Emperor banning all psykers.You cite fluff from the days when the Emperor permitted Librarians at Nikaea, but banned sorcery. Now in the more modern fluff the Emperor has banned all psykers at Nikaea. Perhaps the Emperor might rescind Nikaea in the future, but as of now he has not and that makes Guilliman an oathbreaker. ''Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion shall maintain a Librarius department. All it's warriors and instructors must return to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers. Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy and I will visit such destruction on him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my might,''-A Thousand Sons. pg. 356 Those are the Emperor's current orders regarding Librarians. Absolutely nothing in that quote retcons or contradicts the following: "The combined powers of Imperial Fists and Blood Angels librarians were directed by the Emperor to counter the Thousand Sons sorcerers. The opposing psykers were stalemated, Horus' forces stood poised for the final attack, but the Ultimate Gate remained closed to them." -Siege of the Emperor's Palace, WD 261 pg. 25. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Again, Disobedient does not equal traitor. None of the loyalist Primarchs took up arms against the Emperor. And do you include Johnson, Sanguinus, and Khan is your "traitor you my eyes" list? And even Dorn disobeyed the letter of the Emperor's decree- he didn't exactly disband the librarium and return them to the ranks, he simply put all of the Librarians into isolation on the Phalanx. Then they are all traitors then. Perhaps Ferrus Mannus is the only truly loyal Primarch then. Absolutely nothing in that quote retcons or contradicts the following: The older fluff you cite was from when the Emperor had sanctioned Librarians during Nikaea. My point was that era of fluff has since been superceded, along with many other things, like Legion sizes, the Battle of Calth, Fulgrim's turning, etc, etc. You can keep on bringing it up if you wish, but it's frankly irelevant to my point. Regardless of what the Emperor might have commanded later in a peice of outdated fluff, as of right now the Emperor has not resinded Nikaea and as such Guilliman is an oathbreaker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 If they are all disloyal, and it just becomes about degrees of disloyalty, then aren't we back to where we started with nine traitors and nine loyalists? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I'm not going back in the middle of this discussion, it's just to point out that El'Jonson would probably have punched your head clean off already, Gree =) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 If they are all disloyal, and it just becomes about degrees of disloyalty, then aren't we back to where we started with nine traitors and nine loyalists? No. We simply have sixteen or seventeen traitor legions and one totally loyal Legion (The Iron Hands) I'm not going back in the middle of this discussion, it's just to point out that El'Jonson would probably have punched your head clean off already, Gree =) I'm hardly concerned about the anger of fictional characters.=) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 If we accept that reinstating the Librarians as a desperate act for survival is a betrayal, then how is Ferrus Manus, the Primarch who went against orders and committed himself and his brothers to a massacre that would have largely been avoided if he hadn't disobeyed, any more loyal? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Gree, how does all this factor in when considering Malcador, whom is the emperors Regent and holds nearly as much power, and has been actively recruiting some of the most gifted psyckers about? In terms of the Blood Angels, Sanguinius never actually acknowledges the reinstatement of the Librarius, the Librarians themselves act of their own accord when their father is brought low, and all but one of them die in the process, technically unless they train a whole lot more before the battle of Terra, they are supposed to only have one Librarian, and it's unclear on his status after Fear to Tread, he may or may not be a fully reinstated Librarian, I suppose we'll find out whenever the BAs get a proper role in another book again (my one disappointment with unremembered empire was the false advertising of it's cover lol) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 It isn't that he's less strict, but that he comes off rather . . . Pre-teen-ish. I am all for Guilliman loosening up, but that is just wrong of Primarchs in general. But I honestly felt the same about the conversation at Ullanor in the Scars book, so my opinion might not be BL's. That, and it irritates me to see him act this way with the Wolves, when he's supposed to be on good terms with Russ and his boys. It's a matter of Abnett's gift for natural conversation leaking into places some don't like. Personally, I love it. The parallels in the chatter between Army and Ultramarine units in Know No Fear (havn't read UR yet) are one of the little things which are both enlightening about the characteristics of the legions and that made the book for me. You'd be surprised how quickly the formal facade slips from even the most regal persona when in the right company. I'd wager even the Siggilite swears when the toilet roll's missing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Again, natural conversation? Perfectly fine. But that is natural conversation between twelve year old kids, not a Primarch and some Legionaries. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Matter of interpretation, it seems. I disagree with you there, Cormac. I did find the 'Sorry and all that' a bit strange, but my guess is it might be a common expression among some cultures, not the 'Yeah, whatever, sorry...' it initially reads like. Although Wolves are majer basterds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I'm sorry, but I read that and I got the impression of schoolyard politics and chest puffing, mostly from Guilliman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 If we accept that reinstating the Librarians as a desperate act for survival is a betrayal, then how is Ferrus Manus, the Primarch who went against orders and committed himself and his brothers to a massacre that would have largely been avoided if he hadn't disobeyed, any more loyal? Did Ferrus Mannus obey the Emperor's orders? I recall Mannus being reckless, but I don't recall him disobeying the Emperor's direct orders at all. That already nets him more brownie points from me. Gree, how does all this factor in when considering Malcador, whom is the emperors Regent and holds nearly as much power, and has been actively recruiting some of the most gifted psyckers about? Then Malcador is a traitor too. In terms of the Blood Angels, Sanguinius never actually acknowledges the reinstatement of the Librarius, the Librarians themselves act of their own accord when their father is brought low, and all but one of them die in the process, technically unless they train a whole lot more before the battle of Terra, they are supposed to only have one Librarian, and it's unclear on his status after Fear to Tread, he may or may not be a fully reinstated Librarian, I suppose we'll find out whenever the BAs get a proper role in another book again (my one disappointment with unremembered empire was the false advertising of it's cover lol) Well, good to know that Sanguinius is loyal then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Well, Gree, if we put it that way, every single character in the Heresy could be a pontential traitor. I don't find the use of pykers in that moment as an act of treason. I mean, when the Edict was established the Heresy wasn't in play, the Great Crusade could continue without Psykers, but the Heresy? It's legions against legions, every single asset that could be used should be used. Besides, the Emperor is too far away, Guilliman doesn't know for sure if he's dead or alive or what is going on. He did what he thought was better for the Imperium. So with the Psyker stuff I'm not suspecting him. The only thing that keeps intriguing me is: Why didn't he march to Terra? Was it a meditated decision? Was there an accident in the translation through the warp? o something else? I just pray: BL Don't let the Ultramarines reach Terra for the Siege, that was a battle for the White Scars, the Blood Angels and the Imperial Fists, and should keep it that way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 So wait, the Raven Guard Librarian that the Emperor hijacked in Deliverance Lost to open the psychic lock in the gene-vault so Corax could rebuild the Raven Guard and attack the Traitors is an Emperor-approved Traitor? Dear god, the Emperor is a Traitor for rescinding the Edict! The blasphemy! The Heresy! The Emperor is a Traitor! Wait, now I sound like Horus..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 So wait, the Raven Guard Librarian that the Emperor hijacked in Deliverance Lost to open the psychic lock in the gene-vault so Corax could rebuild the Raven Guard and attack the Traitors is an Emperor-approved Traitor? Dear god, the Emperor is a Traitor for rescinding the Edict! The blasphemy! The Heresy! The Emperor is a Traitor! Wait, now I sound like Horus..... Well, Gree, if we put it that way, every single character in the Heresy could be a pontential traitor. I don't find the use of pykers in that moment as an act of treason. I mean, when the Edict was established the Heresy wasn't in play, the Great Crusade could continue without Psykers, but the Heresy? It's legions against legions, every single asset that could be used should be used. Besides, the Emperor is too far away, Guilliman doesn't know for sure if he's dead or alive or what is going on. He did what he thought was better for the Imperium. So with the Psyker stuff I'm not suspecting him. The only thing that keeps intriguing me is: Why didn't he march to Terra? Was it a meditated decision? Was there an accident in the translation through the warp? o something else? I just pray: BL Don't let the Ultramarines reach Terra for the Siege, that was a battle for the White Scars, the Blood Angels and the Imperial Fists, and should keep it that way. I'd just let it go guys, these threads always end up one way.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Just pointing out that if breaking the Edict makes one a Traitor, then the Emperor personally made a "traitor" by directing a Raven Guard Librarian into opening a psychic lock that he also personally made. So by the narrow definition of "they broke the law; they are traitors", then even the Emperor is a traitor as we have no record of Him rescinding the Edict, but we do have a record of Him helping a Librarian to break the Edict, as it was not rescinded. Granted, I pointed it out in the most extreme, ridiculous way imaginable, but it gets the point across. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Just pointing out that if breaking the Edict makes one a Traitor, then the Emperor personally made a "traitor" by directing a Raven Guard Librarian into opening a psychic lock that he also personally made. So by the narrow definition of "they broke the law; they are traitors", then even the Emperor is a traitor as we have no record of Him rescinding the Edict, but we do have a record of Him helping a Librarian to break the Edict, as it was not rescinded. Granted, I pointed it out in the most extreme, ridiculous way imaginable, but it gets the point across. Reductio ad absurdum, it always works to prove a point haha Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Well, Gree, if we put it that way, every single character in the Heresy could be a pontential traitor. I don't find the use of pykers in that moment as an act of treason. I mean, when the Edict was established the Heresy wasn't in play, the Great Crusade could continue without Psykers, but the Heresy? It's legions against legions, every single asset that could be used should be used. Besides, the Emperor is too far away, Guilliman doesn't know for sure if he's dead or alive or what is going on. He did what he thought was better for the Imperium. So with the Psyker stuff I'm not suspecting him. The only thing that keeps intriguing me is: Why didn't he march to Terra? Was it a meditated decision? Was there an accident in the translation through the warp? o something else? I just pray: BL Don't let the Ultramarines reach Terra for the Siege, that was a battle for the White Scars, the Blood Angels and the Imperial Fists, and should keep it that way. He broke the Emperor's edict. Once you get down to it past all the justifcations and attempted explanations, he broke the Edict, and that's enough for me to condem him as a traitor. Guilliman had the arrogance to assume he knew better than the Emperor regarding witchcraft, much like Magnus the Red in some ways. It doesn't matter if he did it because it was pragmatic, he should have stood his ground and died rather than disobey the Emperor. After all, if be can disobey one order, then it just get's easier to disobey the next, and the next until Guilliman isimply ignores the Emperor whenever he pleases, and that's dangerous. It's a pity the Emperor was so surrounded by such traitors during the Heresy, otherwise he might have lived. And no, if every asset can be used then Guilliman might as well be making pacts with the daemons of the warp to combat Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Just pointing out that if breaking the Edict makes one a Traitor, then the Emperor personally made a "traitor" by directing a Raven Guard Librarian into opening a psychic lock that he also personally made. So by the narrow definition of "they broke the law; they are traitors", then even the Emperor is a traitor as we have no record of Him rescinding the Edict, but we do have a record of Him helping a Librarian to break the Edict, as it was not rescinded. Granted, I pointed it out in the most extreme, ridiculous way imaginable, but it gets the point across. Reductio ad absurdum, it always works to prove a point haha Hey, at least it caught attention. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3484828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 I liked the tie in with Sotha which becomes the Scythes of the Emperor's homeworld and the idea the farmers there use Scythes which I think could be the reason for the name. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3485271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Well, Gree, if we put it that way, every single character in the Heresy could be a pontential traitor. I don't find the use of pykers in that moment as an act of treason. I mean, when the Edict was established the Heresy wasn't in play, the Great Crusade could continue without Psykers, but the Heresy? It's legions against legions, every single asset that could be used should be used. Besides, the Emperor is too far away, Guilliman doesn't know for sure if he's dead or alive or what is going on. He did what he thought was better for the Imperium. So with the Psyker stuff I'm not suspecting him. The only thing that keeps intriguing me is: Why didn't he march to Terra? Was it a meditated decision? Was there an accident in the translation through the warp? o something else? I just pray: BL Don't let the Ultramarines reach Terra for the Siege, that was a battle for the White Scars, the Blood Angels and the Imperial Fists, and should keep it that way. He broke the Emperor's edict. Once you get down to it past all the justifcations and attempted explanations, he broke the Edict, and that's enough for me to condem him as a traitor. Guilliman had the arrogance to assume he knew better than the Emperor regarding witchcraft, much like Magnus the Red in some ways. It doesn't matter if he did it because it was pragmatic, he should have stood his ground and died rather than disobey the Emperor. After all, if be can disobey one order, then it just get's easier to disobey the next, and the next until Guilliman isimply ignores the Emperor whenever he pleases, and that's dangerous. It's a pity the Emperor was so surrounded by such traitors during the Heresy, otherwise he might have lived. And no, if every asset can be used then Guilliman might as well be making pacts with the daemons of the warp to combat Horus. What on earth would dying for those principles have achieved? Nikaea may as well have occurred in a different era for all the bearing it has during the actual heresy. The point of it was to strip the imperum of the tools it would need to battle against daemonic forces. When you have no idea whether the Imperium in the conventional sense still endures, or if the Emperor himself is still alive, it isn't exactly an act of monstrous treachery to say buggery to the edict. There are degrees here man, its not just psykers today, daemonic pacts tommorow. Guilliman is one of the finest generals in the galaxy but no, he absolutely should cede all initiative to the traitor forces because taking the logical approach is some sort of imagined heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281046-tallarn-and-unremembered-empire-is-up-for-pre-order/page/8/#findComment-3485300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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