help a brother out

[logun]

can we re-roll the ones on over watch if we use the wolf banner. does over watch happen in the assault phase. 

 

[SerEightBall]

Yes and yes. The only 1s we can't reroll with the banner in the assault phase are the 1s for leadership tests. Not that anyone would really want to, except in very rare situations.

 

Just be sure to state your intentions on using the banner that assault phase before rolling any dice. And I always use mine the very first assault my boys get into for its maximum effect.

[Urauloth]

Yep, I was wondering this too recently but the FAQ confirms it.

[logun]

thanks guys, just wasn't 100% on it and a couple of blokes told me i was wrong. one of them also stated that the banner didn't work until the following assault phase after the current phase in which you have declared your intent to use it, and then he proceeded to tell me he was 100% correct because he was the tactition for some blog i had never heard of, i loled so hard.

[dswanick]

 

thanks guys, just wasn't 100% on it and a couple of blokes told me i was wrong. one of them also stated that the banner didn't work until the following assault phase after the current phase in which you have declared your intent to use it, and then he proceeded to tell me he was 100% correct because he was the tactition for some blog i had never heard of, i loled so hard.

On this count, he is correct. The wording for the rule is "the next assault phase". So if you wait until an assault phase to declare its use, you won't get it until the next players phase. Simple solution - declare its use in the shooting phase.

[SerEightBall]

I kind of had the same thought on that wording, but to me that just didn't make sense for what the banner is supposed to do, say your opponent is about to start his assault phase. You declare using the standard and your opponent decides to charge a different target based on the use. All of a sudden you just wasted your banner (on the other hand that could be a useful tactical deterrent). Maybe it was written that way for balance, but the fact that it's one-use, you can still fail a charge or overwatch, etc with the rerolls covers that element. I just think it's poorly written, and RAI is that the banner is valid for that ENTIRE assault phase. And in reality, the unit wouldn't waste such a strong tactical advantage unless it was at just the right moment in battle.

 

Luckily, nobody in my group (and I play at a store that hosts TOs and judges from a major tournament around here), including the veteran wolf players, have ever argued that it would be the other way. However, I think this is something good for the community here to discuss.

[dswanick]

I kind of had the same thought on that wording, but to me that just didn't make sense for what the banner is supposed to do, say your opponent is about to start his assault phase. You declare using the standard and your opponent decides to charge a different target based on the use. All of a sudden you just wasted your banner (on the other hand that could be a useful tactical deterrent). Maybe it was written that way for balance, but the fact that it's one-use, you can still fail a charge or overwatch, etc with the rerolls covers that element. I just think it's poorly written, and RAI is that the banner is valid for that ENTIRE assault phase. And in reality, the unit wouldn't waste such a strong tactical advantage unless it was at just the right moment in battle.

 

Luckily, nobody in my group (and I play at a store that hosts TOs and judges from a major tournament around here), including the veteran wolf players, have ever argued that it would be the other way. However, I think this is something good for the community here to discuss.

1.  It is a tactical deterrent.  If your opponent is maneuvering a unit to assault you, it's pretty obvious which he wants to assault.  If your use of the banner causes him to assault a different target than the one he intended (or delay his assault for one turn), you've already gotten 10pts of use from it.

2.  Also, remember that the banner's rules were written for 5th, not 6th.  There were no Charge Range rolls or Overwatch to contend with.

3.  It has been discussed in this community at length (although good luck finding the archived threads since the server melt-down). :)

4.  It's good that your group has reached a consensus.  Hopefully we won't have to deal with the wonky wording for much longer.

[SerEightBall]

So I'm sure it comes down to semantics on when the banner is used and which assault phase it affects. The question I guess is when exactly does the shooting phase end and assault phase begin? According to the rules Assault starts when charges are declared in the charge sub-phase, or does the shooting phase end the moment the morale checks from shooting are resolved? So I assume one could state the intent of using the Wolf standard before declaring charges and it would affect that assault phase. Say it's my turn it's acceptable to say "This unit is calling on the Wolf standard and declares a charge." And it wouldn't be acceptable to say "this unit declares a charge and will call on the Wolf standard"? So then if you're charging multiple grey hunters in a turn you have to say "this unit and this unit will be using their wolf standard, and this unit and this unit will be charging"

I guess it gets more complicated when your opponent is about to declare charges and you have to pop the banner before they actually do. I can just see a waac player, while the last dice of his shooting phase are still tumbling across the board, rushing into declaring charges before you can say you're using the banner. He then then gets a safer charge in while your unit struggles to undo the knots on the damn flag for a turn. That's why we just call it good in our group to simply pull the banner before rolling any dice, because that is really what's at stake here.

 

And I'm sorry if this issue has been settled before, the mods may as well lock the thread since the questions of the OP have been answered, but where is the fun in that? And for those of us who are new to B&C and this army, and because GW will not answer our most frequent questions, these threads will keep popping up. If the archives were still in good condition I'd be more than happy to peruse the previous discussions without bumping old news.

 

We have a minimum of 6 months left to this codex, and then we can all argue about the new stuff in the next one! :D

[logun]

as long as you declare its use before the assault phase its ok?. so when does the assault phase technically start, is it before he issues his intent to charge or when you actually pick up the dice to roll the overwatch. 

[SerEightBall]

If we're going with rules as written, I'd say the assault phase begins after morale checks and any fall back moves from the shooting phase are resolved, but before any charges are declared.

[Urauloth]

Ahaha that's some really awful wording I'm amazed they never FAQed that

[Valerian]

You simply interrupt your opponent once he looks like he's starting to wrap up shooting and say, "hey, before you finish up your Shooting phase, I'm activating this Wolf Banner here, and this one over here (putting some reminder markers down). Please proceed."

 

Also, they haven't FAQed it in 5 years, so you have to assume that it's working exactly as intended.

[Urauloth]

I didn't mean to change the wording or the way the banner works (the more I think about it the more sense it makes) but some clarification on the specifics of when you have to activate them would have made a good Q&A point in the FAQ, especilly with 6E's radically different assault phases.