Space Wolves Codex Disadvantaged

[Bloody Legionnaire]

So I played against Chaos Space Marines again today, and I have to say that Space Wolves really need their new codex. I think with the direction Games Workshop is going in (which IMO has been done very well and is very good) the Space Wolves players are very disadvantaged. I know some of it is attributed to the HQ chosen and what not.. but I was pretty much smacked by all of the preferred enemy rerolls and other special rerolls CSM has. AND THEN.. there is the fire breathing Mechanical Chicken. It's bad enough that we have ZERO Anti Air Capabilities... Not being able to take any cover save at all and not being able to take any armor saves (for power Armored Marines) is terrible. My Long Fangs were blown away as well as all my troops like nothing. I finally hit the SoB once, and got a shaken result, which of course went away the next round because of some demon power.. and then the hull point was regenerated so that went away pretty quickly as well. 

I really don't care who you are but you're an idiot if you think Anti-Air is going to have any sort of impact on this flyer.. unless they come out with some super duper uber awesome new weapon. At this point I am 100% that we desperately need our own flyer. I'm going to be pretty disappointed in GW if they do nothing about this for the SW. 

Today, I got tabled, but it really wouldn't have been so bad if it wasn't for the Hell drake, my Long Fangs, one of Vindicators, and two units of Grey Hunters would have done very well if they hadn't been cooked. I love my Space Wolves, but I think now (because of the new dexes) we are way over priced and way underwhelmed. 

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

I know the aftermath of defeat is always bitter, but try to get some perspective on the game you just played. By the sounds of it, you had the same experience I had in my first game of 6th ed with Wolves against Chaos - you didn't lose to the Chaos 'dex, you lost to the Heldrake.

 

Can't write much at the moment, but the Space Wolves are in no way disadvantaged in the ground wars of 40k. They're still one of the strong codexes. However, their antiair is crippling against Chaos and Necrons. Look into an Aegis defence line, a Forgeworld flyer (Storm Eagle/Caestus Assault Ram) or simply ally in anti-air units from C:IG (this is a very good idea and more cost-effective than FW, plus you get IG blob squads for holding objectives, win-win).

 

Arkhan

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Principal wise.. I don't want to ally. When I play I would like one pure force. I also do not like the idea of having to spend points on something like an Aegis defense line taking points away from some other area they can be used in my Army. i think Space Wolves *WERE* one of the stronger codices... However now that more and more new ones are coming out I can't say I agree now. A couple months ago sure.. 

I didn't necessarily "lose" to the heldrake, but it hurt. My rolling hurt me more than anything and there's just nothing you can do about that. He and I both (he is also a Space Wolves player) could see the difference in how the Armies played and worked with their rules, and the Space Wolves just feel outdated. Oh and spensive!

[Urauloth]

The CSM codex is weak, riven with internal balance problems and largely propped up by situational benefits and the arguably overpowered helduck. The SW codex is solid, largely balanced and, besides a few pricing issues, only lacks 6E's shiny toys (mainly a flyer of any kind, or some manner of reliable native anti-air) to be a top-notch codex in all respects. A lot of CSM players compare their codex unfavourably to wolves to this day - I saw it happen minutes ago - and I don't think SW overall can be considered a weak or disadvantaged codex at all tbqh.

 

Yes, anti-air is an issue. It's an issue you're compounding, however, by turning down the aegis. You're discarding the one skyfire intercept weapon available to you without turning to allies, and not to be rude but that doesn't really seem very sensible if you're struggling against flyers.

 

Hopefully when the SW 6E codex drops (rumour is may, last I heard) there'll be a flyer of some description and at least one more AA option (flakk missiles on fangs, at the very least) but for now, an aegis is a very good investment. Yes, it takes points away from the rest of your force, but what good do the extra models those pounts would buy do you if they're wiped off the board by a baleflamer? Above a certain points value and in a certain meta, you can't run without some kind of anti-air in 6E, and if your principles stop you from allying, you probably need an aegis.

[Wulfebane]

I played two games yesterday where I included the Firestorm Redoubt. One was against a CSM noise marine/defliers list (won) and the other against a BT-toting LRRs army (tied). Admittedly, neither had flyers, but despite that, the "anti-air" defense fortification I brought more than made up its points by shooting ground troops with it's horrible BS, negated by the twin-linkage. Had my opponents brought flyers, I feel extremely confident that they would have been extremely upset encountering my Firestorm. 

 

So while yes, SWs have no AA or flyers in their own personal 'dex, they still have options in fortifications (the aegis and the firestorm, among others) and still manage to keep things "pure" and potentially fluffy.

 

 

I also do not like the idea of having to spend points on something like an Aegis defense line taking points away from some other area they can be used in my Army.

 

As to the OP, explain to me where your points would go, should we be granted our own flyers/AA? Due to your claim above, you want your points to go elsewhere, than to the more-than-capable and fully accessible fortifications, so how would that change if say GW decided to slap a wolf paw emblem on an aegis and stick it in our codex? Still gunna bluster about it and buy more grey hunters, or are you going to make a sensible choice?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i65/kieran_m/1377264860120_zpse62dda41.jpg

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Seriously, your complaining over a single unit and then rejecting the methods of countering it? And blaming dice for it?

 

Allies are the easiest. You reject that

The Aegis Line can also be effective. You reject that.

 

try picking up a Storm Eagle or Caestus Assault Ram. Both are Wolf legal.

 

More importantly, try and act like a Son of Russ when you post. The above posts are embarrassing.

 

WLK

[Roma]

Well, not pretending i played much this edition, or at all vs helldrakes but:

Basic regurgitated knowledge all over the internet indicates doing basic maths to draw "helldrake free" zones on the board. Not sure how well this works google it.

 

Common sense would say: go for ruins, and spread out along the levels. Ideally a baleflamer blast should only be hitting a maximumof 3 marines on a level.

 

Im a fan of the skyshield. 4+ invuls and premium firing positions is sick.

[Urauloth]

I really don't care who you are but you're an idiot if you think Anti-Air is going to have any sort of impact on this flyer.

 

That's certainly an... interesting... opinion, but how exactly would you know, given your apparent refusal to actually try any kind of anti-air in the first place? A quad gun firing at BS4 averages 3.5 hits, stripping hull points on 5s and penetrating armour on 6s. You can seriously dent a heldrake the turn it appears. Even factoring in its invulnerable save, you have a statistically significant chance (6.6%) of killing it outright before it even uses its baleflamer. Of course, you'd be an idiot to think that would have any impact on it,

[Jarl Deathwolf]

Basically, if you face heldrakes, you are gonna have a bad time. I find it funny, though, that in the Chaos forums they are organizing themselves to face down GW because they think their codex is weak (exluding heldrake) and here we are.

Regardless, the very first battle the local Tau fought with his bright and shiny new dex, I curb stomped him. With my 5th edition tactics. Same with the eldar. It has gotten a bit harder to go beyond Rune Priests, Long Fangs and Grey Hunters, sure, but we are by no means an outdated or disadvantaged codex. We can still tear out the throats of kings with the best of them.

[SerEightBall]

Personally I just run a divination priest with my long fangs set up in ruins. It's tried and true to deal with flyers. 5 Missile/lascannon LFs, with prescience need sixes twin-linked, but only need 4's/3's to glance. On the other hand a quad-gun fires 4 shots, twin-linked, needing 3's to hit, but needs 5's to glance. Now if we put our goal to penetrating hits, the quad gun will need 6's! So either way sixes are needed somewhere for anything to be fully effective against AV12 flyers, and you get the +1 to vehicle damage results with the lascannon's AP2. Not to mention the long fangs will do more to ground targets with better AP. What kills MEQs better? 3-5 S8 AP3 Krak missles or 4 S7 AP4 autocannon bullets?

 

I don't do (or care for) playing mathhammer, but at face value, with the choices we have, I like the long fangs better for versatility (weapon options, fire control), maneuverability (if you need sixes anyway, moving them won't make it worse), and output. Hell, we can put them behind the defense line, the RP on the quad-gun, a Chooser of the Slain at the highest point on the table, and your quad gun is hitting on 2's ON TOP of everything the Long Fangs do! But wait! There's more! Put a TDA wolf guard pack leader inbetween your squad and the dragon, and BAM you've got a 2+ save to soak that AP3 baleflamer. Flyers hate us.

 

One final point: Heldrakes are fairly expensive. More expensive than most anti-flyer units out there (the 70/75pt Hunter/Stalker comes to mind) The more of them he takes, the fewer scoring units he will have. Focus on his troops, keep your arms and legs inside your rhinos at all times (until the last minute), and you can win on objectives alone.

 

Tl;dr: long fangs are better than quad guns anyway, or just ignore flyers and play objectives.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I tried the whole ignoring flyers sitting on objectives. When it Ignores cover.. it doesn't do much good. I tried keeping them in Rhinos (I have one so challenged in that area) Rhino was vector strike and the Fire breathing mechanical chicken then hit my only LF squad and turned all of them but one into ash. 

Guy in the rhino were assaulted tied up and systematically ended before they could really do anything. 

I had a LR as my cover cover thingy.. it had a nice WGTDA squad inside which I had depart so I could shield my last GH squad inside (he made quick work of my other GH squad with the Hell Drake as well). But the LR got assaulted and everyone of course had to get out again.

 

I in no way blamed the heldrake for the over all outcome of the game.. I merely said it really hurt, but didn't completely smoke me
 

Wolf Lord Kieran

 

(smh) if you actually read my third post, you'd see where I said the Heldrake definitely hurt but wasn't what caused me to lose. I had some really good units that shouldn't have gone down as quickly as they did thanks to rolling lots of ones. My Thunderwolves and thunder bear fell victim to that and before I knew it were just gone (thunder bear even had runic Armor... just one after bloody one) That's just part of the game some times you're rolling bad dice.. learn to read or don't read into things. There was no complaining, it is what it is. 

 

To the guy that talked about sensibility.. don't be ridiculous, not everyone has to play the game like you do. I don't really care what edition you are stuck in. I love the Space Wolves, I think they are great.. and maybe it's not knowing my Army well enough but to say we are disadvantaged does not mean we are horrible. 

 

SerEightball

Lucky for me the guy only has one Heldrake. I did hit the thing once with my Assault cannon WGTDA.. the one hit penetrated and created a shaken result. Because of some demonic power the heldrake was able to resolve the shaken result and do some more damage and also did the healing thing where it had the hull point taken off. I could careless about math hammer and what I "should" be rolling we all know good and well that the dice have minds of their own and could give a :cuss less about what math hammer says should be rolling. I do not want to pay for or use an Aegis defense line. It's not part of my codex.. and in your mind(s) that may be ridiculous but I really don't care. It's not something I want to use in my Army and I don't know if it's really all that flufly.. debatable I know. However as far as what my codex alone grants me is what I am going off of. 

I don't really see why CSM players feel all that disadvantaged. Their stuff seems pretty well priced, they have a ton of goodies and modifiers in their codex and every time I have played against them they all seemed really well and balanced. It seems to me like they had the customization SWs are famed for, but do it better. You guys may have had different experience and more experience with your Wolves... good for you. In my gaming community this has been my experience. At first.. people used to snicker and say "oh.. look at you complaining about space wolves" and not that more and more of the 6th edition codices are out they realize that the wolves are a little dated and don't work as well in certain situations with the new Armies.. that has been my experience. Don't get me wrong I have had some pretty crushing games since I've been playing, but there have been plenty of times when it's clear the other Army just fits better in this edition because they are newly written. 

For those of you who struggle with the idea of our codex being "disadvantaged" or "out dated" maybe it's the semantics and you're not getting what I mean by it. 

 

[SerEightBall]

Hey I don't play by math hammer either! I was arguing against everyone telling you to "just buy a quad gun" because pound for pound I like long fangs better. I scrapped the ADL+Quad Gun from my lists months ago.

 

Another option is to deploy them in an AV12+ building if available. The heldrake can't pen it (i don't have my rulebook here so i can't remember if they can vector strike buildings), and with the one glance it might do, you'll get an armor save. A skilled opponent may be able to maneuver a counter, but that's what this game is about.

It does have that 5++ demonic invuln and It Will Not Die, but that's annoying no matter what you shoot it with.

 

Believe me I know dice betrayal (I recall an incident when the Doom of Malantai dropped into the middle of my army) and I guess that's why math hammer is so popular.

 

I'm anxious to see what we'll actually get in our new codex along with everyone else and I agree that our codex simply wasn't written with the current rules in mind, but I think we still make do after we get over some annoyances in the current meta.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Yeah, I didn't meant to sound like I was getting off at you if it sounded that way.. I think I realized you were arguing against Aegis. Long Fangs are nice.. They aren't my favorite because of my love for tanks. But if we got access to flyers (as long as they are fast attack) then I will gladly make Long Fangs my only heavy support choice and use the flyers for what I normally use my tanks for. So much competition for limited slots with so many good units is tough :( 

I really thought I was going to use my long fangs at the beginning of the game to bring down his mechanical chicken in one volley but he made faster work of them than I anticipated. I only have one squad right now (of long fangs) and there are those who would argue I need more.. at which case I would argue back he would have made just as fast work of the next unit. I'm really happy I ran dual Vindicators.. they killed quite a bit of stuff and drew a lot of fire which was nice. It's the first time I ran them like they should be run.. drive up and kill! Other than the tanks though everything else was kinda blegh... 

I'm really kinda surprised by all of the guys acting so defensive about me saying I believe the Space Wolves really need updating. We all know the for every HQ but a Rune Priest war gear is entirely too expensive to build something remotely close to a death star. WG have in my opinion very expensive war gear as well and you don't get a ton of bang for you buck. There are some nice perks to all of them but nothing super stand out. Look at how over priced all of the options are on the Thunder Wolves which are arguably one of the best units we have. How useful are 85% of our HQs... and lets not even get into their point costs (Rune Priest..the exception). Yes Wolf Lords have some pretty fun things that you can do with them.. but other than the Sagas they are really kinda lacking in special rule department. My favorite HQ to run right now is a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with Stormshield, Thunder hammer, runic armor and saga of the bear. He has the potential to be a beast in CC but unless you have other wolves with him in CC to soak up some wounds he definitely dies very easily. If you want to go at initiative you have to take a weapon that is going to be near useless against most of the other warlords you come in contact with, and if you really want to have some punch it's either a powerfist or a thunderhammer definitely getting up there in points with those. The frost weapons are pretty much useless... how many of us even bother with them? Yes we have solid troops, awesome long fangs and remarkable rune priest.. and if you want to be generic the formula is out there, but that's how everybody plays their Space Wolves... how many of you try something else or different and have success? I mean honestly? Yes.. ranting and complaining a little bit but I'm sure you'll get over it. 

[SerEightBall]

Hey you won't get any of that from me, I got the same treatment from the Vets here when I complained about my army's performance against an Iron Hands list using the new SM dex that included 6 Ironclads and the unkillable Chapter Master biker (T5, 2+3++, EW, FnP, and IWND). I accepted the scolding, took their advice, and regained much of my confidence in our codex. And next time I face that list, I'll try and show the Iron Hands how sharp our claws still are.

 

I don't know, maybe some of the brothers are harsh because they don't want this turning into the Chaos forums, with acute green grass syndrome. They really are nothing without that Heldrake. ALL of the Chaos players in my group either quit playing altogether or switched to the new xenos books, while the wolf players are holding their ground. I think the only only downside for us right now is that our codex has been out for a while and most players know how to deal with us, I was getting fairly predictable in my group so I had to write some new lists and try some new things.

[Forté]

Have you ever tried making a decent list with the Chaos Dex? Frankly, it's a very poor marine Dex and only really gets effective with chickens (pricey and boring), oblits or daemon allies. The basic marine is nothing special, especially when compared to our hunters. And trying to get a characterful, fluffy army just isn't happening.

 

As for not using allies. If you're trying to keep it fluffy then why not Guard allies. They've together in countless stories and they have decent anti air and some flyers. Either that or stop blubbing, bit the bullet, drink your mead and go give them a stomping with what you have. Focus on your targets and don't get distracted by the poor chicken model. And maybe look into the FAQs. You may find that a RP may be able to counter the chicken in some way.

[Forté]

There's always these too

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Support/SPACE_MARINE_AIR_DEFENCE_MISSILE_LAUNCHER.html

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Support/SPACE-MARINE-AIR-DEFENCE-COMMAND-PLATFORM.html

[Rift Blade]

For the OP--try a Bastion. You get an elevated position that gives your LF's a cover save PLUS good fields of fire that HELP maximize split fire opportunities AND gives you an AA weapon WITH Interceptor. Drop a 5 man GH pack inside & LF on the battlements & you have a VERY HARD ROCK for your deployment zone. For 125 pts, you get the Bastion & Quad Gun which in 5 games has only let me down once when dealing with flyers. I've killed 2 Heldrakes & 2 Storm Ravens one with escorting Storm Talon as well as a Nephalim thingy. Yes, it took 2 or 3 turns & some extra units snap shooting, but it can be done. And on the outside chance that the enemy  brings his own ADL with gun, take it from him & use it against him. The look on your opponents face will be worth it, trust me. First time I ever played against the Heldrake, the Chaos player had an ADL w/quad gun protected by 15 Chaos Marines. Charged it with 4 TWC & a TWL, cleared out the Chaos loonies & the TO said my guys could use the Quad gun, so the TWL dismounted, manned the Quad gun & shot the Heldrake in the behind as it flew over me on to the table. 2 turns later job done.

 

Just remember, if your opponent has a flyer or three, the safest place for you is their deployment zone or in CC. I will not deny that flyers, especially the Heldrake or the Necron Flying Circus are more then a mild pain in the butt, but you can beat them & beat them badly. The Chaos player above I tabled & the Necron player using the 3 flyers moving troops around i beat.....just. But you can do it. My 2 cents anyways. Good Luck.

[Wulfebane]

Frankly OP, it is not the codex that is disadvantaged. You are choosing to be placed at a disadvantage by not adjusting your gameplay to meet the current edition's meta.. ie allies and/or fortifications. Even despite those options, SerEightBall has presented you a completely in-codex and viable option (*gasp* unless you don't like your Rune Priests using powers not in the C:SW too!). A Space Wolf player above all else should be the easiest to adapt to the situation, mostly because our codex IS so balanced (outside of Blood Claws) that we can counter every opponent in some fashion with minimal list tweaking.

 

If you don't like the options, that's fine; Don't use them. Stick to the old ways. But it eliminates all credence to your claims in the OP and title..... and honestly, we've known about the hell chicken for months nigh on a year. It's old news, with several old threads discussing it, and bottom line it was determined that those who cannot adjust their gameplay are left in 5th edition griping about it.

[WhiteShepherd]

I know the aftermath of defeat is always bitter, but try to get some perspective on the game you just played. By the sounds of it, you had the same experience I had in my first game of 6th ed with Wolves against Chaos - you didn't lose to the Chaos 'dex, you lost to the Heldrake.

 

Can't write much at the moment, but the Space Wolves are in no way disadvantaged in the ground wars of 40k. They're still one of the strong codexes. However, their antiair is crippling against Chaos and Necrons. Look into an Aegis defence line, a Forgeworld flyer (Storm Eagle/Caestus Assault Ram) or simply ally in anti-air units from C:IG (this is a very good idea and more cost-effective than FW, plus you get IG blob squads for holding objectives, win-win).

 

Arkhan

 

Aegis doesn't matter against hellturkeys, they ignore cover... just a bad matchup.  I ally with guard and wolves and run 2 vendettas... aka I don't worry about hellturkeys anymore

[Urauloth]

Well the point of the aegis is the quad gun. The fact that it comes with some walls attached is really just a nice bonus.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Wulfebane, on 29 Sept 2013 - 10:28, said:

Frankly OP, it is not the codex that is disadvantaged. You are choosing to be placed at a disadvantage by not adjusting your gameplay to meet the current edition's meta.. ie allies and/or fortifications. Even despite those options, SerEightBall has presented you a completely in-codex and viable option (*gasp* unless you don't like your Rune Priests using powers not in the C:SW too!). A Space Wolf player above all else should be the easiest to adapt to the situation, mostly because our codex IS so balanced (outside of Blood Claws) that we can counter every opponent in some fashion with minimal list tweaking.

 

If you don't like the options, that's fine; Don't use them. Stick to the old ways. But it eliminates all credence to your claims in the OP and title..... and honestly, we've known about the hell chicken for months nigh on a year. It's old news, with several old threads discussing it, and bottom line it was determined that those who cannot adjust their gameplay are left in 5th edition griping about it.

Lol the fact that you assume I am stuck in 5th edition is quite funny to me. I started playing 40k in 6th edition and know little to nothing about what may have worked in 5th edition.

 

I find it funny that on my last post I listed 90% of the common issues everyone has with the codex and no one attempted to comment on those... I guess I was wrong for expecting we would all take an objective look at things.. *Sigh* my fault for looking for maturity on the internet.

 

And seriously, to all the guys talking about me not speaking in the manner of a son of Russ...

 

http://holykkphils.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/facepalm.gif

 

Get real...

 

There are certain things I am going to spend my money on... whatever one has listed (with the exception of LFs) I will not be purchasing. I have no desire to go out and buy an Aegis defense line, or bastion, or whatever else. I don't even have a rule book yet for those things. A rulebook and building up my Army with Codex Space Wolves units takes precedence over all peripherals. I love Vendettas.. allies are a cool idea, yes it is fluffy.. it's just not an all space wolves force. I am reasonable.. I understand that Allies work well. You guys kinda prove my point when you bring that up though, what you have clearly stated is something more than what's in our Codex is necessary... why continue to fight me on this matter?

[Jarl Deathwolf]

 

what you have clearly stated is something more than what's in our Codex is necessary... why continue to fight me on this matter? 

 

Because Space Wolves are really weak only against Flyers (lacking any dedicated Anti Air, or flyers of our own), but flyers are seldom of such great combat potential that they cause Space Wolves to be destroyed without effort. The only ones that have even a claim to that are the Necron flyer and the Helturkey. Thus, we take offense to being called a disadvantaged codex. 

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

Can this thread end now? This is stupid. You asked for advice (although prefacing that request with the stipulation that anyone who provided you with the solution to your problem 'is an idiot') and it's been given. Some of it is very good advice. You don't want to take that advice. Fine. The problem isn't the Codex, or even necessarily the Heldrake, it's your refusal to adjust to the paradigm shifts 6th edition has provided. You're welcome to your opinion, but your refusal to change your outlook doesn't mean you're objectively right.

[Urauloth]

For the extremely specific purpose of reliably countering a single unit (the only good unit in an awful codex, in the case of the heldrake) then yes, you are going to have to look outside the SW codex (all the way to the 6E rulebook, which you should probably look into getting, because playing a game system without owning the rulebook for it isn't all that good an idea and the small rulebooks from the starter set aren't very expensive) but the fact that you've correctly identified the solitary and relatively easily remedied weakness the codex has doesn't mean that calling it a "disadvantaged" codex is reasonable or that people disagreeing with your conclusions aren't being "objective".

 

Lascannon longfangs buffed by divination average a 17% chance to outright kill a heldrake, better than either of the new AA units in the SM codex, better than a quad gun even with a high-BS operator. No non-SW models needed, no fortifications, no allies.

 

If you want an echo chamber about how terribly underwhelming and outclassed the codex is then tbqh you're probably going to be chronically dissatisfied with the discourse here, because it isn't, even if you impose metagame limitations on it by rejecting fortifications.

 

I mean, you know, putting it all politely.