Space Wolves Codex Disadvantaged

[DanPesci]

Our guys are just as customisable as pretty much everything in the new SM codex, my flatmate is an avid dark angels player, and still claims that the SW dex has better options than his new one (which id probably agree with), and the one list he's been able to produce from his choas dex which gave me any bother (plague marine/vindicator heavy list) ive been able to completely table twice (much to his disdain) after losing once to it and learning from that.

 

Our dex is still competitive in 6th...for one we still have one of the best troop choices, and cost effective heavy support, in the game. sure, flyers might give you some bother, but as grey mage has pointed out above, there are several ways round them, and most of the time, its only really the helldrake ap3 flamer that you even need to worry about.

[Grey Mage]

Which wont happen (or unless I need to start buying forge world) unless we get a new codex. 

 

Are we still more customizable than the new C:SM? I understand in a 5e enviroment, C:SW were probably pretty nasty. My personal experience with my SWs in 6th edition hasn't really seemed that way. It appeared to me that most of the other Armies I played against had a few special rules that and units that really made me feel at a disadvantage with the options in my codex. Could just be I'm a beginner, I didn't necessarily catch a lot of crap for it, but there were a few guys that would snicker and say "psshh.. space wolves player complaining about his codex?" Which they all knew I was a new guy.. anyway. Here recently after the new dexes have been released and after talking with some of the guys (to include SW players) the disadvantages of a 5e book in a 6e environment have been talked about. I personally felt like it was noticeable to me on the table as well. 

 

I did not mean to come off with the idea that Space Wolves suck, more that they have a hard time. They are my favorite chapter.. it's not like I'm coming from a different forum into the Space Wolves forum just to troll and talk about how much worse Space Wolves are than another Codex.

Certainly seemed based on the idea that we somehow couldnt counter enemy flyers....

 

How much use do you make of counter-attack? It should come up alot. How much use do you make of free 2nd specials? That should come up alot too.

 

Do you often take a Rune Priest? How often do you use Scouts or DPs? We have people ally in our RPs specifically because they are so effective all over the place over codices that are newer by miles- take advantage of them. Take advantage of the fact that we are ***The best, bar none*** The Drop Pod Army.

 

SWs shouldnt struggle much, and shouldnt struggle at all against DA or C:SM with a well rounded GH heavy DP list. With a heavy contingent of Long Fangs and/or Typhoons and the aforementioned bodies we shouldnt fear taudar either. Id say to this day the only things I wince at are IG air cav- and its not insurmountable- and seeing more than 3 Nightscythes across the board.... honestly, I dont have a solution to 12 necron flyers, and Im not honestly sure anyone really does.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I always use counter attack, and I don't always take the free special weapon because I'll take 9 GH and 1 WGL and give him a PF and a Combi-Plasma.

I do like to carry a rune priest with me, but I haven't figured out the best way to use him. Of course there is the psychic defense and psychic attacks. I seem to get him killed pretty quick in CC

[Blacksad]

Rune Priests aren't CC chars. They are eighter unit boosters of ranged mass murderers, aswell as psychic defence.

 

They are the wise old men of the packs, not the buff duel-winning meatheads. (not to say they can't do anything decent in CC, they just can't take hits)

[Jarl Deathwolf]

 

I do like to carry a rune priest with me, but I haven't figured out the best way to use him. Of course there is the psychic defense and psychic attacks. I seem to get him killed pretty quick in CC

 

I tend to field two Rune Priests. One for the front line Grey Hunters, one leading the Long Fangs. The Front-Liner gets Biomancy, Divination and Runic Armor. Maybe even a Wolf Tooth Necklace and Saga of the Beast Slayer. Biomancy is meant to get the AP2 shots to help deal with terminators. Divination for either re-rolls or 4+ Inv. Sometimes I give him Storm Caller, Living Lighting or Jaws of the World Wolf. 

 

The older Rune Priest leading the Long Fangs is the Warlord, with 2 Divination and a Chooser of the Slain. The reason he has chooser of the slain because I always have a Quadgun or Icarus Lascannon, and he is firing. BS5 Anti-Air for the Win!

 

Both get melta bombs because, well, it makes me feel better. 

[Forté]

Why take power fists on pack leaders? Too expensive and will go last in most challenges. And the combi is only one shot on the plasma. Personally I'd go for:

 

10x GH, Power Axe, 2x Plasma Gun, Wolf Standard

 

Not too sure on MotW personally with 6e being a bit more shooty.

Add in a double plas-pistol, MotW pack leader and plas-pistol Wolf Priest for extra s7 and rerolls. Can get pricey though and you'll have to use cover to get you closer for the pistol shots.

 

IIRC, Ramses is a fan of the 'keep it cheap and basic but use squads to support each other' tactic. I may be wrong but I know someone pretty much hinted that way.

 

 

As for the comments comparing the C:SW and C:SM. Yes, the new one has new toys which can get expensive. Yes, they have new chapter specific rules. Yes, they have flyers. But...our basic troup types (GH, LF, WS) are well worth their points and still perform well in unison. And with great anti psychic abilities too.

 

I admit, anti air doesn't exist in the Dex but options are out there.

[DanPesci]

Rune Priests aren't CC chars. They are eighter unit boosters of ranged mass murderers, aswell as psychic defence.

 

They are the wise old men of the packs, not the buff duel-winning meatheads. (not to say they can't do anything decent in CC, they just can't take hits)

 

This.

 

I either go for divination RP, who sits back usually with 1/2 squads of long fangs, and my home objective hugging twin plasma grey hunter squad, giving prescience where/when needed (best other power to try to go for here IMO is the ignore cover or 4+ inv)

 

or

 

Rune priest with 2 CSW powers, usually living lightning and Jaws, or L.Lightning and M.hurricane. Unlimited range d6 S7 shots from living lightning is horrendous against light armour.

 

 

As for your 9 men GH packs led by powerfist wolf guard..this was a common tactic in 5th edition (usually 8 in a rhino with a wolf guard and rune priest)...but with changes to shooting and the new challenge rules...its more effective generally to either run a full 10 man squad with twin specials, or run say 8 in a drop pod with a TDA wolf guard to soak up wounds.

[Vash113]

Which wont happen (or unless I need to start buying forge world) unless we get a new codex. 

 

 

The Stormraven was given to the Dark Angels, Black Templars and Codex Space Marines without those armies needing a new codex, same thing with the Stormtalon. It's become relatively common practice for GW to release new units in supplement books or white dwarf before the army for those units gets a new codex. Then of course we have fortifications and allies which should not be dismissed. I maintain allies lists from both the Imperial Guard and Blood Angels to back up my wolves as needed. 

 

It hardly comes off as sensible to dismiss options and then remark about how your lacking options.

[Bulweih]

Hyá brothers,

I'm with the others on this one as well.

Can't agree we're disadvantaged, as time moves on and other codices and the new edition have been released, sure one can feel changes forced on you. Our Scouts beeing one major issue through FAQ nerv for example.

 

Sanctioned answer:

"But as ever is the case, we adapt, in terms of fliers we endure if no other option presents itself, because as the Wolf King taught: it is our sole imperative to win at all costs!"

 

I understand that nowadays as a new player it's harder and more expensive to get your hands on other armies codices to learn their strenghts and weaknesses, but I assume you're better at finding a digital copy etc.pp.- for me it's part of the learning curve and essential to developing new lists. So you might want to give that a try.

Don't let people behaving odd get to you, had a rough time starting too, it tends to get better.

For me it's still pure wolves, period, in apoc I had 2 Ikarus LC in my area, but in normal games the RP letting the LF re-roll to hit is suffice to deal with fliers.

If you resent all outside help, there's no way around learning even more about our troops and the ways to use them.

Best of luck in this.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Hyá brothers,

I'm with the others on this one as well.

Can't agree we're disadvantaged, as time moves on and other codices and the new edition have been released, sure one can feel changes forced on you. Our Scouts beeing one major issue through FAQ nerv for example.

 

Sanctioned answer:

"But as ever is the case, we adapt, in terms of fliers we endure if no other option presents itself, because as the Wolf King taught: it is our sole imperative to win at all costs!"

 

I understand that nowadays as a new player it's harder and more expensive to get your hands on other armies codices to learn their strenghts and weaknesses, but I assume you're better at finding a digital copy etc.pp.- for me it's part of the learning curve and essential to developing new lists. So you might want to give that a try.

Don't let people behaving odd get to you, had a rough time starting too, it tends to get better.

For me it's still pure wolves, period, in apoc I had 2 Ikarus LC in my area, but in normal games the RP letting the LF re-roll to hit is suffice to deal with fliers.

If you resent all outside help, there's no way around learning even more about our troops and the ways to use them.

Best of luck in this.

Appreciate the post, bud!

[Grey Mage]

Hyá brothers,

I'm with the others on this one as well.

Can't agree we're disadvantaged, as time moves on and other codices and the new edition have been released, sure one can feel changes forced on you. Our Scouts beeing one major issue through FAQ nerv for example.

 

Sanctioned answer:

"But as ever is the case, we adapt, in terms of fliers we endure if no other option presents itself, because as the Wolf King taught: it is our sole imperative to win at all costs!"

 

I understand that nowadays as a new player it's harder and more expensive to get your hands on other armies codices to learn their strenghts and weaknesses, but I assume you're better at finding a digital copy etc.pp.- for me it's part of the learning curve and essential to developing new lists. So you might want to give that a try.

Don't let people behaving odd get to you, had a rough time starting too, it tends to get better.

For me it's still pure wolves, period, in apoc I had 2 Ikarus LC in my area, but in normal games the RP letting the LF re-roll to hit is suffice to deal with fliers.

If you resent all outside help, there's no way around learning even more about our troops and the ways to use them.

Best of luck in this.

Remember, theres a reason you and your opponents both bring your books to the table with you- feel free to ask to look at the stat summary before the game, ask questions, anything funky ask if you can read it- I know that many like myself simply absorb the written word better than often badly paraphrased speech- and go from there.

 

Yes, pirating is a thing- but not a thing we discuss here at the B+C because its illegal and one of the fastest ways of getting the website in trouble so please dont go asking on the general forum for such things.

 

It is a sadness though that incredibly few people will have hardcopies of the whole set at home these days.

[Bulweih]

Hjoldá!

I recognize my failing and will be sure to correct it, I didn't want to bring pirating up so much, just a turn of phrase I'd say.

 

Agreed on the sadness of not beeing able to have a hole set of codices anymore.

[Forté]

Erm..most of the new digital copies on the Black Library are cheaper than a printed copy. And not pirated at all. Still not the same as a real book though.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I'm by no means a SW 'dex expert, but can't yall take wolf guard leaders in termie armor to tank those baleflamer shots?  It may not the the best solution to the heldrake, but at least the SW 'dex has a lot of options despite no access to a flier which is a credit to how flexible your army has been lately.

[Grey Mage]

Because its on a turret, a good player will just make sure hes at the right angle to hit your PA guys so the TDA cant tank, but still- its better than a stick in the eye.

[the jeske]

 

. Then it killed half of those 20 heavy weapons. I lost that game by

being tabled, having killed precisely two models, one a Soul Grinder,

one a vanilla Chaos Marine. In 1500 point army.

Wait a big blast hits max 3 dudes , you want to tell us that you have been firing all your hvy weapons at an av12 for 4 turns. What was it standing on a landing pad?

 

 

Because its on a turret, a good player will just make sure hes at the

right angle to hit your PA guys so the TDA cant tank, but still- its

better than a stick in the eye.

He could take two in those units that are out of transports [WG+RP] and run a crusader for GH and an ally BA crusder with another libby as his tank force , or a DA one to get the power generator .

[Warhead01]

I have enjoyed very entertaining thread. It got me thinking more about my army composition. I recently got to play a 3500 point game against Chaos and crush them with minimal losses though he didn't have a hell bird. Which might have changed a few things. 

This was my first time using my wolves in 6th. I really enjoyed seeing what the lads would do. I have almost all the parts for one more Wolf guard pack leader in TDA and was thinking long fang leader. He will lead my Missile Launcher pack. 7 krack or frag missiles and I was thinking about the ADL and quad gun. I have a few other options. I spent last night looking at Ebay and Forge World for more options. The Land Raider Helios is looking like a good answer and cheaper then the Storm Egale. Points wise it's only a 30 point up grade over the cost of a land Raider. I would feel safe deploying 2 of these and loosing first turn. 

 

To the OP. I would only suggest learning to "power game" to crush this player and his Hell Drake. Once you have put that army to the ground you will see other ways to do it again and won't need such an over the top list. And if you have lost to that player enough times then one over the top list is forgivable. 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Maybe it's a combination of not investing my points properly or not having enough of the key units. I only have enough troops for about 30 power armor marines. I have quite a few termies and some good HQ units/characters. The rest of my army consists of 2 LRs, 2 Vindis, 1 Rhino, 1 DP, 1 LF unit and a dreadnought I hardly ever use. 

[Warhead01]

That looks like part of it. The more options you have the easier it gets.  Depending on the opponent their are loads of way to win. 

You could use another 2 droppods for sure. Don't be afraid to drop in a dred. it'd big and scary. support that with at least 2 more squads. a small Wolf Guard pack a hero and another dedicated unit.Changing you play style might even throw off the other player if you both play a lot. Mind games are sometimes as strong as a good list. But planning to minimize the effect of his hell drake as well as how to squish it. it's a puzzle. 

 

Ah, I found all the parts I was looking for and made my TDA wolf Guard pack leader! cyclone missiles away! 

[MaveriK]

I'm amazed this thread is kept going.

 

At the end of the day, your army is only as strong as your general. It's all about your priorities and tactics. We've been through allot worst during 3rd edition with having only a small SW supplement book as a codex, yet those few who are still here at the Fang today who played wolves back then, still held up their own and put up a worthy fight against far updated armies. For some wolf players that was enough. But in today's gaming standards, the value/effort isn't appreciated as much. Sure nobody likes to lose, but how does one learn or grow as a gamer if there aren't any challenges to match you. Only those who have felt defeat know the true value of victory and the lessons learned from it. Whelps will always be the first to do the whining and complaining, while the greybeards are the ones who sit back, laugh and do all the thinking. Nuff said.

[hendrik]

despite what mav said there are plentora of methods to get anti-flyer tactics/units in the game, allies,fortifications and forgeworld.

Choosing not to use these is like a fat man complaining he's fat,yet refusing to hit the gym or go on a diet...

[Warhead01]

 

We've been through allot worst during 3rd edition with having only a small SW supplement book as a codex

 

 Yes, yes.. And that book aged like wine.. I remember something like ... So those a re Khorne Berserk are they, How cute. And now we will teach them fear and pain..lol  And many a zerker did die that day.. Silly chaos..

[Blacksad]

Maybe it's a combination of not investing my points properly or not having enough of the key units. I only have enough troops for about 30 power armor marines. I have quite a few termies and some good HQ units/characters. The rest of my army consists of 2 LRs, 2 Vindis, 1 Rhino, 1 DP, 1 LF unit and a dreadnought I hardly ever use. 

2 vindis and long fang pack as heavy slots, 2 runepriests, 4 units of grey hunters (2 5man packs) and termies as a pack of wolfguard, and 2 lone wolves. split off a wolfguard to the long fangs pack, one each to the 5 man squads that you keep to guard backyard objectives, one full 10 man pack in rhino, other in dp (or have both footslogging it, with a WG attached, use the dp for the remaining 5 WG, and get the rhino as a dedicated transport for one, deploy it empty and use it as mobile cover)... plenty of options really, if you prioritise correctly. kill his scoring troops, his long range support, then wittle away at whatever he has left

[Fhyn]

Granted just coming back to my Wolves. But was thinking about them, and their anti-air, and yeah, was thinking about the Heldrake, cause one of our guys plays them.

 

So was debating on bringing Rune Priests with Divination, Long Fangs with Missile/LasCannons and bringing a skyshield.

 

Granted, dont get the Quad gun that comes with the Aegis line. But the Skyshield, gives a 4+ Invul, not a Cover Save. Plenty of room up there for 2 or more units of Long Fangs, spread out.

 

Sorry didnt read all the posts, was busy writing up my introduction post for coming back to my Wolves, from my break. In case this point was already made.

[Castellan Michael]

Did we not just have this discussion in another thread?

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282501-space-wolves-losing-their-edge/