Additional Info I got from Gamesday

[GhostMalone]

I think anyone complaining about the accessibility of these items as relics diminishing the unique identity of a given 30k faction should also direct their anger at anyone playing "counts as." If your concern is that the unique identity of an army should be maintained, anyone playing counts as is doing a far greater disservice to that than someone who chooses to take a relic tank. Someone playing their non Blood Angels or successor army is co-opting the entire list of the Blood Angels and robbing them of their uniqueness by subverting their stats and units toward their different Assault-Oriented Marines, for example. That seems to be a much bigger blow to army identity than allowing some relic vehicles.

So because I collect WE and no one in my state plays heresy era lists I'm supposed to never have a game!

 

I'm fine with the counts as as long as I'm fielding it as it is. Rampagers seem like good stand ins for death company, and I'm not fielding rapiers or anything like that.

 

So I think that whilst people fear 30k they should not be allowed to field 30k stuff.

 

It's a big hypocrisy I know but 40k can't have everything

[La'zaro Khan]

 

I think anyone complaining about the accessibility of these items as relics diminishing the unique identity of a given 30k faction should also direct their anger at anyone playing "counts as." If your concern is that the unique identity of an army should be maintained, anyone playing counts as is doing a far greater disservice to that than someone who chooses to take a relic tank. Someone playing their non Blood Angels or successor army is co-opting the entire list of the Blood Angels and robbing them of their uniqueness by subverting their stats and units toward their different Assault-Oriented Marines, for example. That seems to be a much bigger blow to army identity than allowing some relic vehicles.

So because I collect WE and no one in my state plays heresy era lists I'm supposed to never have a game!

 

I'm fine with the counts as as long as I'm fielding it as it is. Rampagers seem like good stand ins for death company, and I'm not fielding rapiers or anything like that.

 

So I think that whilst people fear 30k they should not be allowed to field 30k stuff.

 

It's a big hypocrisy I know but 40k can't have everything

 

I personally am not saying you shouldn't play counts as.  I have no problem with it.  I also have no problem with these relics showing up in 40K.  All I'm saying is that if your reasoning behind not wanting the 30K stuff to show up in 40K is that it diminishes uniqueness, then Counts As does so just as much if not more so by not only accessing a unit, but a whole list.  A Blood Angel is less unique than it was because a World Eater is being played as a Blood Angel.  Again, I don't have a problem with this, but if that's your reasoning behind not wanting 30K in 40K then it is as you point out, hypocritical, but you obviously can see that and acknowledge it.

[GhostMalone]

I completely agree with you, I just wish more people moved into the heresy base camp so I didn't have to do this

[Disruptor_fe404]

I think anyone complaining about the accessibility of these items as relics diminishing the unique identity of a given 30k faction should also direct their anger at anyone playing "counts as."  If your concern is that the unique identity of an army should be maintained, anyone playing counts as is doing a far greater disservice to that than someone who chooses to take a relic tank.  Someone playing their non Blood Angels or successor army is co-opting the entire list of the Blood Angels and robbing them of their uniqueness by subverting their stats and units toward their different Assault-Oriented Marines, for example.  That seems to be a much bigger blow to army identity than allowing some relic vehicles.

 

I personally am not saying you shouldn't play counts as.  I have no problem with it.  I also have no problem with these relics showing up in 40K.  All I'm saying is that if your reasoning behind not wanting the 30K stuff to show up in 40K is that it diminishes uniqueness, then Counts As does so just as much if not more so by not only accessing a unit, but a whole list.  A Blood Angel is less unique than it was because a World Eater is being played as a Blood Angel.  Again, I don't have a problem with this, but if that's your reasoning behind not wanting 30K in 40K then it is as you point out, hypocritical, but you obviously can see that and acknowledge it.

 

At first I thought you were laying the smackdown on counts-as. And I was outraged. Then I realised that you weren't and what you were actually doing is offering a juxtaposition. And so I re-examined my outrage.

 

And I realised that perhaps my outrage at 'HH selfishness' is quite similar to my outrage at people who disallow counts-as.

 

DOES MY OUTRAGE AT 'HH-SELFISHNESS' COUNT AS OUTRAGE AT 'COUNTS-AS-DENIAL'?!

 

Mind: blown.

 

Yo dawg, we need to go deeper!

 

Seriously though, good stuff. You just made me understand a little bit more of myself.

[RolandTHTG]

So would people have a problem if Vehicles, Part 2 was only things like Sicarus, Contemptor, new Whirlwind, The plasma/conversion beamer relic predator, plus consolidated updated rules for the other LR variants Forgeworld has always produced (i.e. finally get all the rules in one place) With certain things like the Sicarus and relic predator having rules like "Relic of Lost Technology: no more than 1 per 40k detachment" and none of the Heresy special equipment like phosphex or the Jetbikes (which do have fluff that they have been lost except for the dark angels)?

[GhostMalone]

Yeah pretty much except 40k get no siciran! I mean it ill allow storm eagle but not fire raptor

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

If Chaos had a decent codex, then you wouldn't have people playing Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or Codex Marines with Chaos figures.

[Toxichobbit]

With regards to the Fire Raptor and Sicaran, they are things (re?)invented by FW. They are not purely Heresy era until FW say they are, which I believe has not been confirmed nor denied so far. There is no breaking of the background if they are available to both eras and there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be available to both eras unless FW decide that they are 30k or 40k only. If you want to be really technical, the Fire Raptor is a variant of the Storm Eagle, which is a 40k vehicle that was put in 30k, so it's no different than the variant Predators and Land Raiders that exist in both eras. People getting their panties in a bunch over new stuff with no background being available to both systems is essentially getting upset because you want your time period to be a special snowflake with stuff that the other time period doesn't get.

 

Now, if FW or GW at any point say that they are 30k only then they are something that should not be appearing in 40k armies. I can think of a few things that are like that already - jetbikes, volkite, primarchs etc.. I'm fully in aggreement with those who are saying that these things, the things that are stated in the background as being 30k, stay in 30k. Seeing jetbikes popping up in 40k Chapters would most certainly diminish both their presence in 30k and their uniqueness in 40k Dark Angels. Seeing Primarchs pop up in 40k would .... well i'm not even going to go there. It would be wrong on so so many levels. But the stuff that has no background yet - it can be either era or it can be both, but that should be because of the background, not because people want to have toys that others don't.

 

 

 

I can't believe people are getting upset that some of the models are being given to a wider range of players. Really, is it that bad that some of the stuff that is made for 30k is shared by 40k? Especially as the example given was utterly ambiguous with the exception of the mentioned Spartan, which was a 40k vehicle over two decades before there was even a 30k system.

 

The comments from the HH players in threads recently are actually put me off doing project logs in the HH section of this forum.

Really? You're surprised? It's not too far from whenever a new codex or edition comes out. Players hate to lose that which they feel makes their army unique.

 

Don't be put off by such comments. Forge ahead and just do what you want to do.

 

It's not just the comments, it's the entire attitude of a growing number of 30k players. There's a noticeable amount of seperation beginning to happen between 30k and 40k on these forums, fuelled by both bitterness and superiority towards one or the other. I love 30k, I prefer the background to 40k and the only thing stopping me from doing a full Legion forces is I can't decide on which Legion. But despite that, I don't want to be a part of a community that's risking becoming a horrible boys club mentality, even if it is just from a (vocal) minority.

 

It just seems so petty to dislike another persons choice of toy soldiers to the level that you need to claim the cool models for your own Chapter/Legion/time period and get all bothered that others might get to use them, or that you need to repeatedly complain about a particular Chapter/Legion/time period while vaunting your own chosen Chapter/Legion/time period. I get that a lot of this is just people venting because something they love has been ruined by GW/FWs decisions, but there is a line when it stops being an expression of dislike and starts becomming pissing into another dudes milkshake. For me that line has been crossed repeatedly by multiple 30k players, which really puts me off 30k, at least on these boards.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

I jumped ship from 40k due to business decisions by GW over a long period of time, not by a few lines of fluff in a new codex. This business decision from FW, allowing some of their pretty new 30k stuff to be used in 40k as relics, I have no issue with. I want them to sell as many models as they can so they can keep making new ones.

 

I understand what you mean about the growing rift between 30k and 40k, and honestly, I think these feelings have been with a lot of people for a while now, but it wasn't until FW made their own 30k rulebook in Betrayal and launched the ship that a lot of these discontent players happily jumped to. Like many such situations - and I've seen a lot of them in the comic book, video game, and strategy game worlds - there's going to be rejoicing for the new thing and griping for the old thing that they used to love that turned to crap for whatever reason. In time, it will fade, and as you said, it is a minority, however vocal they might be.

[GhostMalone]

See I understand but in my opinion some things such as the thunderhawk should be 40k we gots us storm birds and that should be the way it is.

 

The superiority complex is because alot of the vets and die hards were put to the side by GW with sixth edition so the last bit of grim darkness that holds sway and keeps us in the hobby is the heresy.

 

If that gets taken from us IE, allowance of legion basilisk a and medusas in 40k alot of us will quit altogether. In the past 10yrs I've seen 40k loose itself slowly until the past 3 years. I finally decided to put an end to it and join the heresy when I first joined this forum.

 

With the timeline being rewritten and :cuss being retconned left and right slot of us hold true to the darkness that we first saw that pulled us into this hobby.

 

I stretched my ears tattooed myself and got 70 odd piercing a as a teenager some decade ago because I was obsessed with John blanches art.

 

Now as a 23 yr old govt employee, I still try to retain that imagery whilst being a professional.

 

GW lost that they allowed what they were to be forgotten when they still should have retained what it was that built up this company from RT humble beginnings

 

 

And on the last paragraph people aren't blind to their legions I know the XIIth are bitter broken shadows of a legion they have no control and little coherency but I love them just as I love the 1st or the XVth

[RolandTHTG]

Yeah pretty much except 40k get no siciran! I mean it ill allow storm eagle but not fire raptor

Except the Fireraptor was first mentioned in the fluff of a 40k-ForgeWorld book....

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fireraptor_Gunship#.UkkRqz9vCt4

 

 

The Sicarun I could see possibly being held in 30k, but the design looks soo cool I can't really seeing them refuse all those sales to 40k gamers (because that is a sexy looking model)

[GhostMalone]

Hmmm rule of cool does over ride my authority and I know with the fire raptor, but we gots no flyers whereas 40k got the storm chicken and raven

[RolandTHTG]

I've always considered the Storm Eagle to be the Heresy flyer, though that may be just because the only local guy who I know runs them has a heresy paint scheme thousand sons army (though using the modern 40k CSM codex). Aren't they in the Heresy books, or do Legions only have Droppods available to them?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I'm happy to see 30k units being made accessible to 40k players. If nothing else it might help to bridge the gap. It'd be awesome to be able to bring a 30k army to a 40k tournament - at least in my mind.

[GhostMalone]

If love to be able to field heresy against 40k but it won't happen.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Some tournament organizers allow it.

[GhostMalone]

Where be this? In the merry old land of Aus we don't get much in the way of proper tournaments

[RapatoR]

Well I thought CSM players would be joyous to hear about HH vehicles being accessible...

[GhostMalone]

Back in my day LR were Spartans

 

-shakes cane-

[Toxichobbit]

I'm glad that no one has taken offence - usually when i'm on my soap box I manage to offend someone. Anyway, I know how a lot of you feel, i've been through it twice with 40k. I had very similar feelings about 3rd edition, except it was less to do with changes in the background and more to do with the rules changes. The phrase "kidified" was often used in the group I played with to describe the direction GW went with 3rd ed. Then when 4th ed came along I dropped out completely because of changes I didn't agree with. Skipped 5th and came back for 6th. Oddly enough, 3rd ed was to me the worst edition, while 6th is the best since the big rules change of '98. That's probably totally backwards to a lot of you, but it comes from the throw backs that 6th has to 2nd and RT meaning that it's kind of a nostalgia edition for me. Although i'll freely admit that i'm very liberal with ignoring parts of the Kal background dor that Drai I go don't like.

But imagine that the roles were reversed and I was talking up 2nd ed while constantly saying how dumbed down 3rd was. I'm sure that'd rub some of you up the wrong way. It's not really about us having different opinions, after all different opinions is healthy for debate, just more about not over doing it and pushing our opinions too far down other's throats. Best way to say it is lets just be moderate with our opinions.

Back in my day LR were Spartans

-shakes cane-

And back in my day Spartans were card board

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

I never played 2nd, but since I got in right when 3rd came out, I heard a lot of people talking about it, and honestly, it sounded broken as hell to me and not much fun.

[Toxichobbit]

I never played 2nd, but since I got in right when 3rd came out, I heard a lot of people talking about it, and honestly, it sounded broken as hell to me and not much fun.

It was badly balanced, but when your a wee lad just enjoying the game with his mates none of that matters. Back then all I cared about was the background, cool models and playing the game with friends. 3rd hit just after i'd started to take 40k seriously, as I was begnning to get competitive. The GD weekend that 3rd was released was actually my first day working for GW so I remember it and the following months clearly. 3rd was certainly a better balanced game than 2nd, but it was still badly balanced and the rules were both simple and awful, at least during the early part of 3rd. The complexity of RT and 2nd was one of the best things about them, lots of little details and differences between the units. 3rd wiped the slate, everything was generic and that didn't go down well. Stuff like loosing the psychic phase card game and instead getting a Ld test to use a psychic "gun", was pretty crappy. Likewise stuff like having all of the power weapons become a generic profile and chainswords, knives, chain axes, swords etc just become generic melee weapons felt very bland. Grenades were all different ranged weapons in 2nd, then they became either a melee attack against vehicles or a bonus to assaults in 3rd. Bionics went from being unique pieces of wargear that gave different bonuses (ability to see through smoke, increased STR, increased move etc) to a 6+ save. Different and unique energy fields all became a generic 4++. Different races that had different movement values all became a 6" move - Eldar were no longer faster than humans. The list goes on. Oh, and they took away my hand flamers...

It all felt very streamlined, way too streamlined in fact.Technically 3rd was a better rules set than 2nd, but that came at the cost of the games "soul", or at least from the perspective of most players I knew.

Things did get better as 3rd evolved though, and this has continued in every edition since. For me, 4th, 5th and 6th are just progression of 3rd as they are all based on the same rules, where as 2nd was completely different, having more in common with WFB (at the time, not sure about now as I haven't played it since 6th ed) and of course that most awesome of games, Necromunda.

Given all of the things i've mentioned, I guess it demonstrates why I like 6th. It has many many faults (as has every edition), but it's got some of the feel of 2nd back, with grenades being thrown, different profiles for power weapons, much more evolved psychic power etc. Every edition since 3rd has brought things closer to the details that 2nd had, which is something I like and i'm willing to forgive the bits I don't like, at least for now. Now if they'd just do something with chainswords, get their arses in gear with Sisters and re-do Genestealer/Chaos Cults, i'd be back in 2nd ed heaven .

Anyway, enough of wandering down memory lane. This new book with the Astartes tanks - is it IA:2 2nd ed, or is it a completely new book? Do we actually know what is in it, or is it just speculation? All that's been said so far is it has HH tanks in that can be used in 40k. That's quite a broad category, but i'm assuming it doesn't cover all of them. Most of them are already in 40k anyway. The LR variants, Deimos Preds/Rhinos, Contemptors, Storm Eagle, Spartan, Cestus were all 40k that were then used in 30k. It's safe to assume that the other Deimos tanks will make it in while the Typhon, Cerberus, relic Preds and Fellblade have already made the transition to 40k in IA: Apoc. That leaves what, the Fire Raptor, Scorpius, Glaive, Javelin and Sicaran?

I can't see the Glaive making it in, as it wasn't in IA: Apoc. I suspect that's because it has volkite weaponry which I believe has been stated to not be around in 40k (with the possible exception of the odd AdMech bits). That probably means that volkites as a whole are safely in 30k. The Fire Raptor i'd expect to make it to 40k, as it's a variant of the Storm Eagle which is firmly a 40k vehicle. I don't see the Fire Raptor as any different than say, an Achilles, in that respect. The Scorpius will probably make it to 40k for similar reasons. That just leaves the Sicaran and Javelin, but as they have very little background (afaik), they could be in 40k, or out, depending on what FW decide.

I don't think there's really a need to worry about 30k loosing it's uniqueness to 40k. Jetbikes, volkites, Legion versions of Imperial Guard vehicles (Medusa, Basilisk, Macharius etc) and Primarchs are going nowhere and the Legions are still a very unique structure to the 40k Chapters/Chaos Legions, list wise. Stuff like 10 heavy weapons in a squad, Tac squads with 20 men, Destroyers, Cataphracti, squadrons of tanks and all the Legion-specific units helps keep the 30k list unique, even if some of the current Heresy era vehicles get shared. As FW develops more Legion specific stuff, more Primarchs, Sisters of Silence, Imperial Army (assuming it's different to Guard ofc), Custodes, Mechanicum and probably more vehicles that we have no idea about, 30k is only going to become even more different to 40k.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Technically, the only rules for the Javelin are for 40k. Unless it was already in Book 1?

 

Mind you, I'd definitely say that it was meant for HH.

[Kol Saresk]

Well I thought CSM players would be joyous to hear about HH vehicles being accessible...

Give in and take. Most Forgeworld aren't allowed in tournaments. The most vocal Chaos players are tournament players, or play tournaments on the side. At least, from what I've seen. But again, we kind of hit that fluff bunny roadkill bump.

 

Most of the Chaos Legions ran straight from Terra to the Eye of Terror and had to rebuild. The only two Legions that didn't were the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

 

The Night Lords were smashed at Tsalgualsa by the entire might of the Primogenitors. The only gear they retained was whatever was already on the ships, or was out raiding in the Eastern Fringe. Although that actually leaves some substantial potential for Heresy-era tech.

 

The last we saw of the Alpha Legion, they were winning Eskrador.

 

Basically, the Traitors have been forced to move on to either self-designed tech or daemon tech.

 

@La'zaro, I do and don't agree. The complaining isn't about 30K losing its uniqueness. It is about 40K losing its background. And as I stated before, due to the sheer number of different designs of tech that existed in 30K the odds fully support more than a bit of the fraction that will be all that we see in the Heresy, will make it to 40K.

 

However, the odds are also against every single little piece of 40K tech, especially the more advanced tech, making it to 40K since maintenance has taken on religious practices because no one understands the purpose anymore(they think lube is needed to keep the machine happy so it doesn't blow up in their faces for crying out loud) and innovation is virtually dead in all but the most radical of factions.

 

And to be honest, if people want to play with 30K toys, then what's wrong with playing with 30K rules? I'm willing to bet money that the moment this book gets released, Jaspcat is going to start seeing a lot of players playing 40K armies using 30K vehicles because they want the advantages of 30K toys, but still want to use their 40K codices. Is that more right than Jaspcat having to count as a 40K army in order to actually use his army because no one wants to play 30K while wanting all the toys that come with it?

[Greyall]

Dear God, this 30/40K schism is getting silly as hell. I'm starting to antecipate reading some very respectable posters (no sarcasm whatsoever here) going into full 'GET OFF MY LAWN, YA DAMN CENTURION-FIELDING KIDS' in a few weeks.

 

Now it's about Heresy vehicles in 40K? In a setting where every Chapter, DIY or not, has a relic that used to belong to their Primarch? And where you can create just about any Chapter you want - which is the source of some of the greatest fan-made minis out there? Your 'love' for this universe's core is corrosive. While I see everyday how you're brightening the Heresy section here, sometimes you seem to be doing it out of spite, which becomes unfortunate every time a thread brings out the 30's and the 40's.