Raven Guard IC & Allied Centurions

[Gentlemanloser]

Yup, I saw this question on another site, but it amuses me and I thought I'd ask it here. ;)

 

If you attach a Space Marine IC with the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics to an allied unit of Centurion, do the Centurion benefit from the Scout rule the IC has?

 

RG Chapter Tactics;

 

Strike from the Shadows: Models in this detachment have the Scout
special rule. In addition on the first game turn, models in this
detachment have the Stealth special rule. Note that units that include
models with the Bulky or Very Bulky special rules do not benefit from
either rule.

 

The allied Centurion won't have the Scout rule, nor benefit in any way from the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics.

 

But the RG IC does.

 

The RG Ic isn't Bulky or Very Bulky, so gains a benefit from both 'rules' listed in Strike from the shadows.

 

He is then attached to a Very Bulky unit.

 

As the unit has a single mini with the Stealth USR, that is then applied to the entire unit, is it not?

 

Does the 'Note' from Strike from the Shadows apply here?  Or is it intended to stop Raven Guard Bulky, or Very Bulky units from benefiting from Strike from the Shadows?

[Dam13n]

Surely the moment the character joins a unit with the bulky or very bulky special rule he ceases to have the scout rule as he is part of a unit that contains bulky models.

The way it's worded the unit cannot benefit from the rule.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

- - - - -

Expanding a bit -

In order for a unit to benefit from Scout it must either have the rule itself or have an attached character with the Scout rule. (BRB Page 41 - Scout)

That Character must be attached to the unit during deployment in order to be part of that unit so as to confer the scout rule to the unit before the end of deployment / start of turn 1.

At this point you have a unit that contains the character and 3+ very bulky models. (BRB Page 39 - IC, bottom of first column)

As per the Raven Guard rules (that you quoted) that unit cannot benefit from the rule - even though they contain a model with it. (Codex trumps BRB)

So, as the unit (including the character, who is part of it) cannot benefit from the rule, they cannot scout.

[Gentlemanloser]

Can't benefit from 'Strike from the shadows'. ;)

 

But the IC already has the Scout USR, and the Scout USR has no such restriction (that I can remember!).

[Dam13n]

Looking at it another way:

 

The Character cannot benefit from Scout because he's part of a unit that contains (Very) Bulky models. 

 

He joined them during main deployment, which happens before scout re-deployments, so when you come to determine which units can scout, as per the Strike from the Shadows rule:

 

You'll find a unit with the scout special rule that cannot benefit from it, because it contains bulky models.

 

- - - - -

 

It actually states they "do not benefit from either special rule" (referring to Scout and Stealth (first turn)).

[Gentlemanloser]

The unit doesn't have the Scout rule though.

Only the IC.

(I too agree the unit wouldn't get Scout, I'm just throwing up any objection I can to work thorugh this fully )

And it's either *rule*, not either *special* rule, or USR.

Does the clause relate to the 'Scout' USR, or to a rule portion of Strike from the Shadows? (As SftS contains two 'rules', while being only a single 'rule' itself. ;) )

[Dam13n]

But the independent character rules state that he is part of the unit for all purposes so long as he is joined to them.

(Referenced in my 1st reply)

 

So they are one unit.

 

That one unit contains very bulky models so cannot benefit from either rule granted by SftS.

 

- - - - -

 

Why anyone would bother trying this is beyond me really.  The better (and cheaper) tactic would be to have a Ravenwing Bike Captain and a Bike Command Squad all armed with Grav-guns.  The unit will cost 210 as opposed to 250, has the same number of Grav shots (15), is more mobile (getting a 12" redeployment from scout and a 12" move), has the same toughness and although no 2+ armour, they do have jink which compensates against AP3 and is downright better against AP1 and AP2.

 

They may lose re-rolls to wound / penetrate (no amps) and have 5 twin-linked bolters as opposed to 9 (3 hurricane bolters) but I can live with that.

 

(Note that the 40pt saving could go on 4 storm shields or if you're feeling devious, swap the CCWs for the Gravs then swap Bolt Pistols for Bolters, then Bolters for Flamers (costing 25pts).  Which overcomes the "Bolter deficiency" above significantly and leaves 15 pts to spend on the Captain)

 

This works because Bikes have neither Bulky nor Very Bulky in their rules, so benefit fully from SftS.

[cielaq]

Actually, per FAQ, bikes are Very Bulky. ;)

Why White Scars bikes can Scout an Raven Guard ones cannot is beyond me.

[Dam13n]

Forgot that. Still, Korsarro Khan instead of the Raven Wing captain. Job done.

[DarkGuard]

You're looking in the wrong place GML, the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics quite clearly say that units which include Bulky etc models don't benefit. It has nothing to do with the IC still having it and conferring it etc. He's in a unit with a Bulky model, he no longer benefits from hit. He leaves that unit, he now benefits from it. At least that's how it sounds like it works to me.