Captains are meh?

[Azash]

Anyone else starting to think this? Outside of bike lists they seem to be an HQ option that is very lack luster in comparison to the others.

 

Less points than a Chapter Master but a CM comes with a better stat line, orbital bombardment, and a CM can make bikers troops.

 

Librarians give you psychic powers and now give you access to command squads. Also you can run assault and support configurations so they have more versatility.

 

Chaplains give you command squads as well. They also really buff up an assault squad and they are deceptively cheaper. For the same points chappys come with a power weapon.

 

So like the title says captains seem meh. They excel with bike lists but outside of those what is there niche or do they even have one?

[L30n1d4s]

I think that the Captain is the cheapest HQ that can actually make good use of most of the Relics. With 3W and 3A base, WS6/BS5, and I5 (plus Iron Halo 4++ and the ability to get a 2+/3++ with AA and SS relatively cheaply) the Captain benefits a great deal more than the Chaplain, Librarian, or MotF from the Relic options:

 

-Burning Blade/Teeth of Terra - Since both of these strike at Initiative, having +1WS/A/I is a tremendous boon for the Captain using them

-Primarch's Wrath - BS5 means that the 3/5 shots a turn are going to hit measurably more, meaning that Captain is a much better platform than the Librarian/Chaplain, with only the MotF being equal.

-Shield Eternal/Armor Indomitus - Given the extra wound and higher WS, the Captain is better able to make use of these enhanced armor or their high cost than a counterpart Librarian/Chaplain/MotF.

 

Now, that all explains why you might take the Captain instead of one of the other support HQs. What about a Captain over a Chapter Master? In most circumstances, I would agree with you, a Chapter Master is the way to go, especially with Relics, since you are already paying a high points cost, so why not maximize it by getting a high octane character to use the Relic capabilities to the greatest degree.

 

That said, I think the Captain can come into his own when you are looking for a second HQ which won't break the bank, but gives you a strong CC option to compliment your primary HQ.

 

Say you took Tigurius or Vulkan (two of the more potent HQs in the book) as your primary HQ. Both of these characters provide tremendous benefits to your entire army and are well worth the points, but are not close combat monsters. Supplementing them with a kitted out Chapter Master can be quite expensive, but a "budget" Captain can provide a solid combat capability without spending an excessive percentage of your points on HQs.

 

For example, a Captain with AA, the Teeth of Terra, a Jump Pack, and a Storm Shield, comes in at 175 points, just cheap enough to take alongside another HQ (the comparable CM would cost over 200 points and could not use his Orbital Bombardment unless he is stationary). Kitted out this way, the Captain can ride in an Storm Raven or move with fast moving units (i.e. JP Infantry or Biker Squads), has very decent combat stats (4 attacks on the charge, either with Teeth of Terra or a PF), can increase that to up to 7 attacks on the charge if he is outnumbered (i.e. from Rampage), and is protected by a respectable 2+/3++ and 3W.

 

The "value savings" are even greater when you are taking a Terminator HQ. A Terminator Captain (base) comes in at 50 points cheaper than an identically equipped Terminator Chapter Master. Those points savings can be used for your army or can be used to get a Relic for the Captain.... a Terminator Captain with the Shield Eternal costs the same as a Terminator Chapter Master with only "base" equipment.

 

The Chapter Master in this case has an extra wound, attack, and a relentless Orbital Bombardment, but the Captain has a superior Invul save (3++ vs 4++), has Adamantium Will, and, most significantly, has EW, which actually makes him a better close combat character than the equivalent points-cost Chapter Master.

[Azash]

Honestly a budget 2nd HQ isn't that attractive to me. 175 pts is cheap but look at what you can get for 175 pts...

 

Dev squad 4 x ml with flakk

A command squad with x4 special weapons and apothecary

2x typhoons and a techmarine

 

You get my point. Yeah he is good in close combat but unless your focusing your list on close combat you have to spend more points to make him effective. If your focusing on cc then you might as well take a cm as a primary.

 

Is a second expendable HQ worth a unit or three?

[DarkGuard]

I don't think we can look at the Captain as being a secondary HQ choice, even with a budget option, he is definitely more of a primary choice. An ML1 Libby, or even ML2 Libby, on the other hand, would be more of a secondary choice, as would the Chaplain, points wise.

 

So when would you take the Captain ahead of the Chapter Masters? When points don't allow it (most likely), when you would prefer the Command squad ahead of the Honour Guard while having a hitty character (why?), or for fluff reasons.

[WarriorFish]

I'd rather have the additional units. Unless you have a specific plan that requires one or are fighting at higher point values I don't think a second HQ is worth it.

The better Initiative and default 4++ save are arguably his greatest benefits along with the points saving compared to the Master so he can reliably perform as a beat stick without breaking the bank. L30n1d4s did a good job of explaining the merits of the Captain, he's a far cry from the lacklustre choice of the days of yore

[Captain Idaho]

30pts is a good price to pay for an extra wound, attack and Orbital Bombardment.

 

However I run a list that is very tight on points so I do appreciate having to save points so if I want a fighting character in my assault units (probably Vanguard if not Honour Guard) so I would go Captain.

 

Essentially it's a case for either a solid fighter with increased stats or a solid fighter with a discount on Chapter Relics.

[L30n1d4s]

Actually, the base difference between a Chapter Master and a Captain is 40 points.... the Chapter Master is just a melta bomb cost shy of being 150% more expensive than a Captain.

 

I still agree with you Capt Idaho, even 40 points is worth it for +1A/W and (the new, improved, especially on a Relentless character) Orbital Bombardment.

 

Going back to the OP topic, if you were playing with a SM Allied Detachment for your SM Primary detachment, you could actually take three Captains for only two melta bombs more than two Chapter Masters... not that you would actually do this, of course, but id does illustrate the cost descrepancy somewhat vividly.

[Terrified Templar]

Captains haven't really changed much for me, I only took them in small games or for biker command squads. The only difference is that he's a bit cheaper along with some of his options and he can take a relic to give him more of a punch. He still does the same thing that he's done in the older codex but he is better at it.

[pyroknight]

Wasn't it one codex ago that we were having the exact opposite discussion? 

"Why would anyone take a chapter master when a captain is the same but costs 25 points less?"

 

Now they finally make all the other HQ choices better, and suddenly the captain is some kind of bastard child...

 

Captain still serves the same role he served before, he is cheap and he is 'good' at assault. He is just less popular now that everyone else got a buff.

But hey, he costs less now. 

[Giga]

I think foot captains are decent in 6th edition, as long as you buy them shield eternal and use them in a list that benefits them. 

 

If you're running a stormraven or a land raider with an assault unit inside, a captain with shield eternal, artificer armor, and relic blade/power fist (depending on preference) is a nice option (also a terminator captain with shield eternal and chain fist, basically budget lysander that's also better at vehicle hunting), especially as they benefit from most chapter tactics.

 

It's sort of a deathstar-ish option, but it's something an opponent will have to deal with, and it has potential to wreak some serious havoc.

[minigun762]

I think Captains are the balanced choice.

Librarian and Chaplain are value options.

Master is used when you feel the urge to throw as many relics onto one person as possible.

[Giga]

@ minigun

 

As for librarians, frankly I'm not sure they are worth it nowadays, not without the old spells (null zone, avenger, gate of infinity, vortex of doom, etc.) or the old psychic hood. How do you run yours and with what general support? 

[BassWave]

Well, I've been running a captain with the teeth of terra hiding in a tactical squad. I just let him jump out and hit something when the opportunity arises. I need to test it more, but at 125 points, its a cheap way of getting a cc bully that can go after large weak units. To be fair, I use IH tactics, making this a little more viable than other chapter's captains. Its actually really awesome to see a lone model take on large units, very cinematic :)

[Dam13n]

I pointedly refuse to spend more than 175pt on a non-monstrous HQ choice, so the Captain is a good bet.

 

On a bike he's a good force multiplier too (adds Bikes as Troops and unlocks a Command Squad (on Bikes with Special Weapons))

 

He's slightly better value for points on survivability too (30pts/wound while the Chapter Master is 32.5pts/wound) and both can be ID-ed just as easily.

 

Because the Command Squad doesn't need a delivery system (unlike the Honour Guard who'll end up in a Raven or Raider for Assault Vehicle) that further improves the value for points from the Captain's options.

 

So why not a Libby or Chappy - simple, 2 Wounds, not survivable enough to be a Warlord and I only want 1 HQ unless I'm playing large games and want a 2nd Command Squad for more fast moving special weapon shenanigans.  (My Chaos are an exception to this, as you pretty much need to have multiple HQs to compensate for the Morale deficiencies inherent to CSM these days)

 

Of course if I want a proper Force Multiplier Captain - It's Khan all the way, 150pts on Moondrakken is a bargain for what he offers, and I struggle to make anything comparable using the default Captain (or any other HQ choice for that matter).

 

Characters don't win games on their own, they can cause damage sure, but it'll be your units that win you more games.  More/Bigger units = a more adaptable and survivable army.

 

I have mates that (used to) spend vast sums on Characters, until they got bored of me decimating them, then pointing out what a waste of points those Characters ended up being, while my cheaper ones were just as effective (if not more so, because they acted as Force Multipliers for my superior units).

[minigun762]

@ minigun

 

As for librarians, frankly I'm not sure they are worth it nowadays, not without the old spells (null zone, avenger, gate of infinity, vortex of doom, etc.) or the old psychic hood. How do you run yours and with what general support?

I'm mostly interested in BT, so no Psykers for me.

That said, if I used one it would likely be a Psychic Scream Telepathy Librarian podding in with some Sternguard. Next turn, scream or use whatever Telepathy spell I rolled.

[Ishagu]

Everyone raves about the cheap Librarians, but truth is that aside from Tigarius none are worth it.

 

Chapter master is great, but in smaller games a captain has his place.

[Giga]

Everyone raves about the cheap Librarians, but truth is that aside from Tigarius none are worth it.

 

This.

 

The only way I can see non-tiggy librarians being a HQ of choice is if you're running a 4 stormraven list and you need a cheap ally for the allied detachment. >_< 

[Reinholt]

A few thoughts...

 

1 - The chaplain just doesn't do it for me in this edition because the Crozius is a power maul by default. What does that mean? It means in challenges I get to repeatedly bounce my crozius off the other guy! Don't get me wrong, they have a place, but once you start giving them gear to do anything other than buff a squad with their basic abilities, you might as well have taken something else, at least in my experience.

 

2 - For me, the discount HQs are either the bone-stock MotF (for the mutually assured destruction value of 2+ saves surviving to strike at I1 and pasting people, and if they have a fist, both sides probably just paste each other and that's that) or the M1 librarian. If you are just HQ minimizing, these are viable options.

 

3 - The ML2 librarian can be good. Now, obviously if you are UM, you just take Tigirius, but not everyone is UM. For other chapters I think the ML2 librarian is one of the default choices, which means the others are...

 

4 - The chapter master and the captain. So here's the question: what else do you have and how many points do you want to spend? If you just want bikes, the cheapest bike unlock is a stripped down captain. If you really want a melee beatstick, you go with the CM, but I question the points efficiency of that when you can just take units of TH/SS termies for the same price once you gear him up.

 

So I think the CM is perfectly viable. What I like about this book is that I can make an argument for all of the HQ choices, though my army is likely to lean towards a captain to allow points to be spent elsewhere, and if I want a beefy HQ, I will take Vulkan. As if we are talking about pure power builds, several of the special characters (Tigirius, Vulkan, Khan) are still where it's at.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

Everyone raves about the cheap Librarians, but truth is that aside from Tigarius none are worth it.

 

This.

 

The only way I can see non-tiggy librarians being a HQ of choice is if you're running a 4 stormraven list and you need a cheap ally for the allied detachment. >_< 

 

For the second time from me (and several more times from others), not everyone can actually take Tigurius.  The end-all, be-all of C:SM HQ choice is not "just take Tigurius."

[Montuhotep]

Well not if you want to avoid being scummy Smurfs, anyway

[DarkGuard]

Actually, Libbys aren't bad, particularly with Telepathy powers, where they can be great at disrupting your opponent.

 

Plus, they're cheaper than Captains. They're still my preferred option, but maybe I'll give the Captain a chance in time so I don't always feel like I'm using Tiggy. Maybe a beat stick will be a nice change of pace.

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

Everyone raves about the cheap Librarians, but truth is that aside from Tigarius none are worth it.

 

This.

 

The only way I can see non-tiggy librarians being a HQ of choice is if you're running a 4 stormraven list and you need a cheap ally for the allied detachment. >_<

For the second time from me (and several more times from others), not everyone can actually take Tigurius. The end-all, be-all of C:SM HQ choice is not "just take Tigurius."

I totally understand.

I'm simply saying that a normal libby is rather useless and I wouldn't field one over a captain/chapter master/special character of any particular chapter.

Heck, I'd easily take master of the forge over one also.

[Giga]

Actually, Libbys aren't bad, particularly with Telepathy powers, where they can be great at disrupting your opponent.

Please elaborate.

 

As far as I've seen, most rulebook powers as well as most codex warlord traits basically require the libby to be in more or less rapid fire range of the opponent, meaning he can be assaulted, meaning he needs additional wargear to stay alive, meaning it's not a good idea to have him be your warlord. 

[DarkGuard]

 

Actually, Libbys aren't bad, particularly with Telepathy powers, where they can be great at disrupting your opponent.

Please elaborate.

 

As far as I've seen, most rulebook powers as well as most codex warlord traits basically require the libby to be in more or less rapid fire range of the opponent, meaning he can be assaulted, meaning he needs additional wargear to stay alive, meaning it's not a good idea to have him be your warlord. 

 

With ML2 the Libby has access to Puppet Master and Hallucination, both great powers which are at 24" range, in fact, apart from the Primaris, Power, all Telepathy powers have a 24" range. One takes your opponent's most potent weapon and uses it against them (always pick a single model unit/tank), while the other can lock down entire units for a turn and basically make it so they do nothing. For non-Marine armies there's also Terrify, again at 24" range, which can force morale tests and also make units fight less effectively in combat. We've also got Dominate, which, considering that the age of Ld9 across the board is now over, with Marines having to pay for it now and Eldar and Tau growing in popularity (at least round my area), this power can also lock down a unit and prevent it from doing some actions in a turn. And while the Primaris is short ranged, it's not a dud. The only bad power in that tree for us is Mental Fortitude.

 

And this Libby clocks in at 90pts, which is the same as an unupgraded Captain. If I only had 90pts for a HQ, I know where I'd spend it.

 

Of course, Divination is the better discipline, but Telepathy isn't bad at all.

[Ishagu]

Of all those telepathy powers I'd say only puppet master and dominate are worth it... and even so they are both situational and guarantee no big pay-off.

Also, you might not get them anyways...