Captains are meh?

[Giga]

Psychic scream is garbage, from my experience. I used it in 3 games in a row, at least 7 or 8 times in total, never inflicted a single wound. I also had it used against me a few times, and I think it inflicted 1 or 2 wounds overall. The tiny range also puts the librarian at a severe risk and necessitates at least terminator armor to make him a bit more resilient, IMHO. 

 

As for the rest, I got invisibility once, which is highly situational and was useless for me. Hallucination another time, which managed to render a guard squad useless, which is nice. I've also seen puppet master used against me once, but I don't think it did much. 

 

I know all this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is really underwhelming. Especially after years of having good reliable powers (null zone, avenger, gate of infinity, vortex of doom, etc.). 

[Bob Hunk]

Psychic scream is garbage, from my experience. I used it in 3 games in a row, at least 7 or 8 times in total, never inflicted a single wound. I also had it used against me a few times, and I think it inflicted 1 or 2 wounds overall. The tiny range also puts the librarian at a severe risk and necessitates at least terminator armor to make him a bit more resilient, IMHO. 

 

As for the rest, I got invisibility once, which is highly situational and was useless for me. Hallucination another time, which managed to render a guard squad useless, which is nice. I've also seen puppet master used against me once, but I don't think it did much. 

 

I know all this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is really underwhelming. Especially after years of having good reliable powers (null zone, avenger, gate of infinity, vortex of doom, etc.). 

 

To provide a counter-anecdote, in my experience Psychic Shriek is something to be feared! :) A friend of mine runs a bare-bones ML1 Librarian as his only HQ and always takes this power (as it's the Primaris). I've seen it murder Wraithlords and decimate tooled-up Nobz mobs.

 

Invisibility is also very handy, I've seen it used to keep units on objectives almost completely safe. :)

[Giga]

Does anyone have any statistics on psychic scream? Assuming it hits and that the opponent doesn't deny-the-witch it, what should be the everage 3d6 roll? 

[minigun762]

Does anyone have any statistics on psychic scream? Assuming it hits and that the opponent doesn't deny-the-witch it, what should be the everage 3d6 roll?

Quick math says 10.5.

Most common results are going to be 9-12.

That's pretty decent since you can only claim inv saves.

Its kinda like a mix between a plasma pistol and a flamer.

[Spleenex]

Does anyone have any statistics on psychic scream? Assuming it hits and that the opponent doesn't deny-the-witch it, what should be the everage 3d6 roll? 

 

Rolling 3D6 produces a bell-curve like probability distribution. The mean result is 10.5, with the most common results being 10 and 11. About 48% of your rolls on 3D6 fall within the 9-12 range, with another 26% falling in the 13-18 range. Given that most units have a leadership of 8 or less, this means you have a 74% cahnce of causing at least one wound on such a unit.

 

Edit: Minigun762 beat me to it.

[minigun762]

 

 

Does anyone have any statistics on psychic scream? Assuming it hits and that the opponent doesn't deny-the-witch it, what should be the everage 3d6 roll?

Rolling 3D6 produces a bell-curve like probability distribution. The mean result is 10.5, with the most common results being 10 and 11. About 48% of your rolls on 3D6 fall within the 9-12 range, with another 26% falling in the 13-18 range. Given that most units have a leadership of 8 or less, this means you have a 74% cahnce of causing at least one wound on such a unit.

 

Edit: Minigun762 beat me to it.

Yeah but you used the term "bell curve", so you win this round!

[Captain Idaho]

Biomancy isn't so bad for a Librarian with power sword and even Terminator armour and Storm Shield. Force axe is the obvious of course.

 

Basically you get a solid chance of one of the bufff powers for a level 2 Librarian and still some solid powers for the others. Remember S6 AP2 is pretty mean!

[Zombie P]

Not to mention of you roll a 5 or 6 on the iron arm roll. S8 power axe, and t7.

 

So cool when that happens.

 

I digress. ZP

[DarkGuard]

Psychic scream is garbage, from my experience. I used it in 3 games in a row, at least 7 or 8 times in total, never inflicted a single wound. I also had it used against me a few times, and I think it inflicted 1 or 2 wounds overall. The tiny range also puts the librarian at a severe risk and necessitates at least terminator armor to make him a bit more resilient, IMHO. 

 

As for the rest, I got invisibility once, which is highly situational and was useless for me. Hallucination another time, which managed to render a guard squad useless, which is nice. I've also seen puppet master used against me once, but I don't think it did much. 

 

I know all this is just anecdotal evidence, but it is really underwhelming. Especially after years of having good reliable powers (null zone, avenger, gate of infinity, vortex of doom, etc.). 

 

Half of our tactics talk is just anecdotal evidence mixed in with percentages. And the stuff that gets agreed upon the most is put in as a staple. And when we don't agree, we come back to the old adage of "mileage may vary".

 

As for me, I got my Sternguard unit and Tiggy caught under Hallucination for 3 turns once. The rest of my army had been battered away and couldn't deal with his Libby, and you can bet I just kept failing those Deny the Witch rolls every single time. I didn't think it was much, I respect the power a lot more now. Invisibility it situational, but then a lot of the time you'll have units sitting in cover, and even giving that one vital unit a 2+ cover can win you the game.

 

Depends how Puppet Master was used against you, and of course what you have to be used. It's worked fine for me, as has Psychic Shriek. Telepathy actually has some decent powers, and is my go to choice for a Libby that isn't Tiggy. I'd of course prefer to have my ML 2 Libby running around Endurance and Enfeeble, but I don't like the rest of the powers in that tree (for Libbys), so I don't roll on it. If you want a Biomancy Libby, you may as well go for a Captain.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Psychic Scream is remarkably similar to what the Doom of Malantai does, and that monster has sucked up more than his fair share of Terminators and Artificer Armour models against my army. Thus, Psychic Scream gets approval from me.

 

What doesn't get approval from me is this thread becoming more about Librarians than Captains.

 

For my part, I'm planning to test out a Captain with jump pack, artificer armour, Teeth of Terra and thunder hammer (or powerfist). He will (probably) be accompanied by a squad of Vanguard Veterans with an axe, a relic blade and a single lightning claw, and possibly be joined by that other red-headed stepchild of our Codex; the Chaplain. If I have the points, I may add an extra body or two to the Vanguard Veterans, as well as a storm shield.

 

We shall see how it goes, but I'm mostly hopeful and enthusiastic.

[minigun762]

I can't see how anyone could say the Captain is anything but a tier one HQ choice.

You get what you pay for and anything from simple power weapon all the way up to Relic hoarding beat stick can be made to work.

[BassWave]

I'm glad we are talking about captains again :lol:

 

I think a cheap captain running solo with teeth of terra and jump pack will end up being my favorite way of running him. Of course, you can't have him be the warlord as he'll be targeted faster than you can say, "for the emperor!". I'd maybe put him in a cheap assault squad for added durability, but honestly, watching your captain scythe through enemies just like the fluff is truly a sight to behold.

[L30n1d4s]

@BassWave

 

I know it makes the Captain a bit more expensive, but if you add a PF to that set up, then he gets +1A (for two Specialist Weapons) and has the option to be S8 AP2 when needed (i.e. Against vehicles, Broadsides, Devastator Centurions, etc,).

[Captain Idaho]

I was thinking the same thing though if I'm honest it's hard to step away from the protection of a Storm Shield.

 

I have been tempted by a Terminator Captain with the Teeth of Terra and the Primarch's Wrath. Very good for model clearance and if with a unit with access to AP2 he'll not have a problem.

 

Oh I'd like to point out it's always a good idea to give a Captain made for assault an Auspex.

[infornography]

I will second the utility of an auspex on a melee HQ.

[Ishagu]

Doesn't an Auspex just reduce cover saves?

[Lucien Eilam]

Yes. The point being that reducing a unit's cover save is a more useful contribution than 1 bolt pistol shot or doing nothing because he doesn't have a gun, and for 5 points you may as well.

[Captain Idaho]

And he can use it at separate targets to that of his unit. So you can jump out of the Land Raider, lower the cover save for a nearby unit to be shot by your Tactical Doctrine using squads and then charge another.

[Reinholt]

After some tinkering and a few test games, I have been slowly trying to figure out how I would integrate the captain into the rest of a marine army, and what the best ways to generate value from the HQ slot would be when taking one.

My thoughts so far:

- He's cheaper than the chapter master while taking on a similar role in terms of what he will personally contribute as a model on the table. Strong (if not overpowering) combat line, but at a better price than the CM.

- This makes me think that going all out to make him a close combat beast is a waste; you would have been better off going with the CM to push things all the way to the limit. Instead, I think the captain calls for the best efficiency possible. His main advantage versus the CM is his effectiveness per point spent, not his raw effectiveness overall, and you should be using the saved points elsewhere to augment your force.

- Defense: without any additional gear, you have a 3+/4++, which is respectable but not godlike, certainly. You have a 50-50 chance to get swatted with a S8 powerfist if it wounds you, and AP3 power weapons have a 50-50 chance to wound you. I think this profile screams for some sort of upgrade to survivability, if you want to make maximum use of the captain profile.

- Offense: obviously, you can't pay this much and leave the dude with a chainsword. It's just a terrible choice not to give him some kind of close combat weapon. There are a number of options here, and I think it depends on your intention with him, but the punch lines that fell out were these: you want a power weapon if you are going efficient or you don't think your captain will face anything with 2+ armor (do you have other guys to eat that challenge instead?), you want the teeth of terra if you are creating a unit-mulching monster who will be solo or with a small squad, and you want a fist/hammer if you are creating someone for challenges, along with the appropriate defensive measures to make sure he strikes.

- Mobility: you also can't take a captain on foot, without some mode of transport. Paying for the guy and then watching him spend all game chasing things around on foot is going to be a disaster. I feel like he needs a transport if he's on foot (or the deep strike potential of a terminator), or he needs a bike or a jump pack.

Okay, great, so how does this all fit together, I hear you cry?

The answer is that I have come up with two builds for my captain:

1 - Terminator with lightning claws. The idea here is that he still can't survive a S8 hit that punches through his armor, so I've kitted him out to deep strike in, solving the deployment issue, and be nigh-invulnerable in challenges against AP3 opponents while he is going to maximize his chance to shred them. Relatively cost effective, 2+/4++, with a pair of claws and deep strike. I don't love it, but there are a lot of armies where this would fit, and I think this is the captain I might use in my drop pod army.

2 - Bike with power fist or thunder hammer. More vulnerable to AP3, but the T5 starts to hamper the ability to consitently wound him. More so, S8 is not instant death any longer, so he is going to be able to face off against the majority of units without hellacious numbers of attacks and then deliver some serious hits with the hammer/fist. This also means he doesn't get into mutually assured destruction with a T4 character with a fist or hammer, because the bike gives him a huge advantage in that situation. An added bonus is that bikes, which are probably the best troop type for marines, are unlocked here. This is my default build for that reason: counters a lot of the things that could be problematic, highly mobile, and unlocks a troops slot in what I think is the best bang for the buck points configuration currently.

I'm also amenable to arguments for the teeth of terra instead of a fist or hammer.

The punch line that really fell out for me, though, was this: the bike granting T5 opens up a lot of avenues, and solves two of the key issues the captain faces (defense and mobility). If you aren't taking a bike, you need a pretty narrow and specific plan that fits with the army you want to get your points worth. Even if you didn't take bikes as troops, the captain on a bike is still going to be a very strong choice.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Can a captain on a bike join infantry units or is he going to be all alone in target-land?

 

And, if the conclusion is that the bike is the best way to kit out the Captain because it solves so many issues at once, doesn't that lead to a conclusion that White Scar tactics are also indicated when taking a captain?  If you are going to be fielding a Captain on a bike, then you take the tactics that best benefit bikes, making him even better (and with hit and run able to "hide" himself from shooting by ducking into close combat)?

[BassWave]

The one issue I have with a captain on bike is that if a target happens to be one level higher in a ruin, then the captain is crap out of luck.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes a bike mounted character can join another unit.

 

I don't think it's essential to use White Scars Traits to maximise the use of bikers, in a similar way I don't think I need Vulcan because I've got meltas and flamers.

 

Considering the plethora of special weapons and combi weapons in biker unit, taking Ultramarines for the Tactical Doctrine isn't bad. Thinking outside the box, taking bikers for an Imperial Fist army means you have an aggressive and mobile unit to support a Devastator and Tactical baseline.

[Reinholt]

Yes a bike mounted character can join another unit.

 

I don't think it's essential to use White Scars Traits to maximise the use of bikers, in a similar way I don't think I need Vulcan because I've got meltas and flamers.

 

Considering the plethora of special weapons and combi weapons in biker unit, taking Ultramarines for the Tactical Doctrine isn't bad. Thinking outside the box, taking bikers for an Imperial Fist army means you have an aggressive and mobile unit to support a Devastator and Tactical baseline.

 

I could not agree more. If you are going all bikes, I think Scars are one option, but I hardly think they are mandatory. There are a lot of reasons that you want those chapter tactics, but bikes also benefit from many of the others.

 

Just off the top of my head, you still get the bolter re-rolls with IF, you can benefit from the UM doctrine as stated, bikes having an additional FNP from IH is hardly worthless. Sallies give you a mastercrafted weapon on a captain on a bike, which is nothing to sneeze at.

 

Yes, WS are good, but it's not the only way to go, especially when you consider characters and what not as well. I mean, captain on a bike + tigirius gives you UM bikes as troops plus the best psyker in the book. So no, I don't think WS are an auto-take.

 

As to the guy on high ruin: that is a problem, and why you should never have an all-bike army or your only assault unit being bikes. I think that is a legitimate drawback.

[Disruptor_fe404]

I know it makes the Captain a bit more expensive, but if you add a PF to that set up, then he gets +1A (for two Specialist Weapons) and has the option to be S8 AP2 when needed (i.e. Against vehicles, Broadsides, Devastator Centurions, etc,).

I agree (obviously!), as this is the same setup I outlined above. Great minds, eh?

Though after thinking about it, the upgrade from fist to hammer probably isn't worth it in this case.

[minigun762]

I think the CM is a better place to go with a SS & I1 weapon. The extra wound and attack make it better choice for hard core slugfests.

Keep the Captain "light" with an I5 weapon