Captains are meh?

[Reinholt]

I think the CM is a better place to go with a SS & I1 weapon. The extra wound and attack make it better choice for hard core slugfests.

Keep the Captain "light" with an I5 weapon

 

I think if you are going to do this, you either need the eternal warrior shield or to put him on a bike. Not being vulnerable to ID from a S8 weapon that can bust 2+ armor is key if you go this route. You don't want your 150+ point CM getting pasted by some sergeant with a powerfist.

[minigun762]

 

 

I think the CM is a better place to go with a SS & I1 weapon. The extra wound and attack make it better choice for hard core slugfests.

Keep the Captain "light" with an I5 weapon

I think if you are going to do this, you either need the eternal warrior shield or to put him on a bike. Not being vulnerable to ID from a S8 weapon that can bust 2+ armor is key if you go this route. You don't want your 150+ point CM getting pasted by some sergeant with a powerfist.

Agreed.

[Lysimachus]

If I was running a Capt, it would probably be something like:

 

Captain w. Bike, Artificer Armour,    205
Relic Blade, The Shield Eternal

 

plus a Command Squad w. Bikes,                 215

Co. Champ, Apothecary,

Vet w. Storm Shield

Vet w. Power Fist

Vet w. Lightning Claw

Liking this combo on the Capt, quite expensive but very, very solid with T5, W3, 2+/3++, EW, FNP!!! With relentless TL Bolters, his and the squads weapon loadouts - plus improved HoW as I'd use the WS CT - they should also hit pretty hard.

 

(It is an expensive total unit compared to CC units like TH/SS Termis, etc but considering that you have your HQ included and don't need a LR/SR for mobility, I figure it's actually not that pricy.) 

[minigun762]

Now assuming that you buy into my idea that Captains should be a balance between the value priced HQs and the uber beatstick that is the Master, here are two build attempts I wanted to put forth for review

 

#1 Storm Shield & Relic Blade

With only 3 attacks you aren't the most killy HQ out there but you have a strong enough weapon to threaten anything that isn't in Terminator Armor and a 3++ to shrug off attacks from Heldrakes, plasma or other power weapons.

 

#2 Power Fist & Lightning Claw

You gain an extra attack which is a significant bonus. More importantly, you have two weapons that are optimized for killing light or heavy targets. The downside is that you're no more durable than a stock Captain. To be fair, 3+/4++ is hardly a pushover, but it's nothing amazing either.

 

In both builds, you could utilize AA to make yourself more durable. Build #2 might need that more, since it doesn't get the 3++ but giving it to Build #1 turns you into quite the tank.

 

In both cases, these Captains are less than 150 points and still a threat to most anything on the board.
If you're looking for something tougher or more expensive, I would bite the bullet and upgrade to the Master.

[SillyDreadnought]

I just go with a Burning Blade, Jump Pack and Storm Shield. I like my HQ's simple and budget, with a clear role to go with some army builds. This Captain in particular goes with my twenty Assault Marines.

[Sheesh Mode]

Teeth of terra on a captain with a bike, artificer armor and a shield seems like a good setup for fighting the massed infantry that orks, guard and nids can throw at you.

 

In my opinion, spacemarines are an aggressive shooting army, depending on the chapter tactics you can turn them into more durable, more maneuverable or more shooty marines, but they are still shooty. Even Raven Guard are shooty, the scout move allows you to put your boys in cover wherever you want, prefurrably a bolstered shrubbery or something.

 

So the captain, he's a cheap HQ with 3 wounds, 3 attacks and WS6, that's a nice stat line for cc against infantry, but not really that impressive against dedicated assault characters. So make up for this by sending him at targets who can't reliably kill him in close combat and shoot down everything scarier.

 

By buying a captain with the above loadout you have a hard-hitting anti-infantry model and have extra points to spend on your army, whereas normally you would have paid even more for a CM.

[Azash]

I think the discussion has gone back to my original point. We are a shooty army and an aggressive shooty army but we are not the shootiest army nor are we the most aggressive army. So if you an out shoot us we have to whittle you down before we get in an opponents optimum range (tau and eldar really tippify this) or if your more aggressive than us we need to be able to thin you out again before becoming aggressive.

 

So why spend even 1 point on a discount beat stick for a shooty army? Any opponent worth his salt is going to either line up a more aggressive unit and cancel him out or direct fire power on him if he gets in range to become a threat.

As for his versatility options the captain suffers from the fact that we are a pretty stacked up codex as far as options go. Wanna kill guard take a whirlwind for 65 pts and you can do it from accross the board serve yourself up as a target for the flashlights? Cost of a whirlwind vs any capt build???? Yep WW is way cheaper.

Wanna kill meq? Why take a beat stick captain when a command squad with a libby w/ plasma guns or a squad of dev centurions with grav cannons will do the trick.

 

It could be an inherent philosophical difference but IMO the HQ should support the list not the other way around. If you have to take units just to field your HQ properly something has gone horribly wrong somewhere. This is where the captain looses out in almost every respect. He is not a support character like the Libby or Chapy and he is not enough of a threat to be a game changer.

 

To make him useful you have to dump points in him (there goes the cheap) then you have to pair him up with something if cheap hadn't already left the building its really gone now. Given the options vanilla nature and really he can only be outfitted as melee beat stick (there is the boltgun relic but thats iffy for the pts) you have to put something in there to make him an effective melee beat stick.

 

So now you have to do things like take an undermanned tac squad and throw him in the drop pod to get him close....aka your wasting the potential of a drop podded tac squad by losing either a special weapon or a heavy weapon that can really help. Or your taking him in a razor back with a meat shield command squad cause they are an assault command squad...aka your waisting a command squad (4x plasma guns, 4x grav guns, etc) nope you have an expensive meat shield to get your "discount" beat stick into position.

 

So we don't do any of that. Now we strap a jump pack on him and stick him with assault troops. Our assault troops are pretty lack luster and need some help. The captain while a discount beat stick isn't gonna help the squad. The way cheaper (cause we have had to dump points in the captain) chaplain not only is a decent beat stick but he helps a marginal unit become a real threat to the opponent. In this case the Chaplain is force multiplier while the captain is just another model in the unit with bells and whistles.

 

So what are we left with the only place our captain really fits the bill which is on a bike. His discount beat stick comes into play because the pts saved vs a chapter master is roughly the same needed to field a an attack bike or upgrade a land speeder (etc).

 

The point is we are a shooty army so when we take a beat stick we need a "BEAT STICK" something that the opponent looks at and goes "OH S!*#T" and something that can go toe to toe with most things out there. For that 30 pts for +1W and +1A and orbital bombardment and this is huge...unlocking a beat stick unit like honor guard is dirt cheap!

 

If the captain did something like the Eldar Autarch with a +1 to reserve rolls or come standard with a beacon it would be a different story. Due the vanilla nature it's just a ho hum choice given the changes to the other hq options.

 

Note - this does not apply the special characters

[WarriorFish]

Couldn't you also argue that being a shooty army that makes us vulnerable to beat sticks? There's a big difference between a shooty army that has nothing against an aggressive army and one that has a counter punch able to intercept as a viable threat. As you say you don't want to spend loads of points on this and a Captain is pretty handy and survivable enough without dropping lots of points on him.

 

A Master may allow an HG squad, but that starts to sound like quite a few points - that doesn't sound like your HQ is just supporting the army any more.

[Captain Idaho]

Save the Relics for a Chapter Master, but a cheaper Captain works well. Consider a power axe and grav pistol Captain with jump pack can boost a Vanguard squad nicely and gain survivability from their Storm Shields and only clock in at 150pts. Not too shabby.

 

Consider a Vanguard squad can be joined by a Captain on a bike too...

 

Still, it is harder to justify such a character if you want a genuine hard case character. Chapter Masters are so powerful.

[minigun762]

I think the Captain fits the bill of a counter assault unit very well.

Something strong enough to slaughter basic infantry or tie up a dedicated assault threat.

 

CM is the choice if you're looking to build a death star beat stick unit, but you pay for that assault focus.

 

In a shooting heavy meta, I think the Captain is more than "good enough".

[Azash]

Couldn't you also argue that being a shooty army that makes us vulnerable to beat sticks? There's a big difference between a shooty army that has nothing against an aggressive army and one that has a counter punch able to intercept as a viable threat. As you say you don't want to spend loads of points on this and a Captain is pretty handy and survivable enough without dropping lots of points on him.

 

A Master may allow an HG squad, but that starts to sound like quite a few points - that doesn't sound like your HQ is just supporting the army any more.

 

To your last point if part of the build of your list is to have a unit that heads out across the table and opens up a can of whoop ass on your opponent then yes all the points you spend on a chapter master is supporting the army.

 

To your main point. Spending points on a middling CC character for a shooty army is points your never gonna get back.  Seriously look at some of the competitive builds out there. This is what a "cheap" captain is gonna have to counter attack and keep in mind we are not talking about a biker captain which is an awesome HQ (not arguing that).

 

Is that captain gonna counter attack and hold off a Great Deamon? Not without artificer a storm shield and possibly a buring blade....so yeah you might as well spend the 30 pts and get the +1W and +1A at that point.

 

Is the captain gonna counter attack Abbadon (pretty common in chaos demaon lists as an allied unit), yep they use him as a beat stick. He will counter attack and die in one round. If that was your warlord your now playing from behind and ole abby just got to consolidate forward closer to something of yours 1d6.

 

Is that captain gonna run out and take on a Wraithknight or Riptide? Really? See my two examples above. He can't even man tank a group of boyz as 40k is a dice game and they will drown him in dice.

 

So what is he counter attacking at that point. You see my point anything coming at you will pretty much eat our Captain for breakfast and ask for seconds and he may just may cause a wound! Now is he a troop slayer like that kind of counter attack...so you just cleaned up the Riptide's and now you want to get rid of those pesky fire warriors.  In a tournament I lost an entire squad of hammy's lead by chaplain cassius to two squads of fire warriors rapid firing in one round. Admitedly my dice were being very not awesome but a captain isn't gonna survive that either even if he is rolling good. Same with a couple groups of guardians.

 

So we gotta put him in with stuff and bang...back to my original point. He is detracting from a tactical squad not helping an assault squad, and your tailoring the command squad just to make him effective losing out on a squad that can potentially wipe a unit of terminators in one round of shooting.

 

I would say he is not terrible in an assault squad but once again is the thing that there are better options for the points.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

It almost sounds like the point you are making is that since a Captain cannot defeat the toughest CC monsters you can think of, he's rubbish and not worth taking.  Admittedly the things you are mot likely to be counter-assaulting are the enemy's assault troops, but the position seems extreme and even a chapter master would struggle against those things.  I'm always leery anything someone starts debating the best this or that.  Before you discuss the merits of the Captain as an assault guy, you have to look at you assumptions about what you expect the assault guys to do in your army.  It's not always about annihilation.  I personally think it is a pity that there is a Kill the Warlord point because of the premium that puts on having the best aka most killy possible warlord.  If you want to talk about things being worth points or not, talk about the shotgun on scout bikers or the weapon they gave Dark Angel company champions.

 

A captain does what he does and the question is not is he "worth it" or not or if he's good or not.  The question is does he do what you need him to do or not?

[Captain Idaho]

Playing the opponents at their game when they're better at it will result in defeat.

 

I've often found my 5th edition Captain level Chapter Master was sufficient to do lots of smashing. Such a character can do damage and be able to carve through plenty of opponents without a worry.

 

So use a Captain as a hardened centre to a reasonable assault element for a balanced and modest investment in a balanced army. After all, relying purely on shooting will see the real kings of shooting win. Unless someone has found a way to out shoot Tau, Eldar and Imperial Guard?

[WarriorFish]

Idaho has outlined the general idea Azash. It's not about making points back or having him turn the tide against any foe, I'm not sure where you got that from.

[hallodx]

Someone said bikes can't charge different level target so I share my idea here: make that captain join assault marines.

With JP, your unit can legally charge a target at different level, AND, since a model can combat another in 3 inches, and first/second floor is 2', your captain can strike models at 2nd floor now! And don't forget target unit have to pile in so you don't need to worry he can't fight in the next turn.

[minigun762]

I think Azash's thinking is fairly common these days.

If you can't beat their assault monster with yours, you might as well leave it at home.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Under that logic there is only one army in all of 40K who should field an assault unit - the one with The Best assault guy.  Same for shooting.  I just don't buy that logic.  It's still a game of shoot the assaulty stuff and assault the shooty stuff.  I'll still run shrike for example, I'm just going to do my best to not have him go toe to toe with Lysander.

[Captain Idaho]

I think Azash's thinking is fairly common these days.

If you can't beat their assault monster with yours, you might as well leave it at home.

Which means your "average" combat dude will carve through your opponents with their armies that left their combat characters at home! ;)

 

Seriously though, there's always someone you can assault when you're avoiding combat with their baddest model. Shoot the Ork Nobz, cut the boyz into pieces.

[minigun762]

I'm not saying I agree, just that it's a common line of thinking.

 

I'm always hesitant to go down the arms race path of creating the uber Marine HQ simply because I feel that other armies can always beat you at that game like Tyranid or Daemons.

 

At the end, I trust in firepower to kill those super assault units or tarpits to delay them.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I used to think that way, minigun, but with the Shield and the Burning Blade, im not so certain about it anymore...

[Schultzhoffen]

However, a point must be made that a basic Tac squad can out combat IG or Tau Fire Warriors - you hardly need a dedicated CC character for the job.

 

A captain can be useful but like any IC should be kept reasonably cheap. In this case: a bike (unlocks bike troops and adds a pip of T), you could add artificer armour and a relic blade and (maybe) an auspex. I'd not bother with relics due to cost factors.

 

The more expensive your HQ is the more you should build your army list around him. This could work but must be kept in mind when selecting/designing your HQ.

[Azash]

So maybe I'm missing the obvious. What is this balanced and cheap and effective captain counter attacking?

 

I outlined where he is not the best choice for pure cc assault especially against the high end baddies. Blob units will tar pit and dice crush him and shooting armies basic units will blow him away before he gets to assault.

[minigun762]

 Blob units will tar pit and dice crush him and shooting armies basic units will blow him away before he gets to assault.

 

If you stay clear of the I1 weapons, he should have no problems generating enough attacks (with the support of his squad) to clear out tarpit units.

As for getting shot before reaching combat, that's a risk for any assault unit regardless of it's point cost. The trade off is always deciding whether to invest more points in an model to make sure they do their job versus allowing that unit to become a point sink where it will never be as effective as the amount of points you've invested in it.

 

A part of this is always going to be your local meta, if all you ever fight against is MSU cultist squads, or Fire Warriors than taking a dedicated assault unit is overkill. On the other side, if all you face is 6 Wave Serpents all with WraithGuard in them, then you may need to bring an HQ who can better handle T6 and not be insta-killed by S10 spamming.

[corlinjewell]

He should have no problem cleaving enough of anything that he can break even ld 10 baddies.

[DerekLee688]

So my cheap/rule-of-cool/counter-assault capt. :AA, Power spear, power sword, and JP. To join 5x man assault squad with power sword and melta gun. The best thing the captain can do vs. beat sticks, is to bring a plasma gun command squad.

 

His job is to kill as many MEQ and below as possible: fire warriors in cover, weakened charging units, and troops. He and squad will be behind a land raider and rhino's when advancing accross the field. Sternguard, PG-command, Grav-bikers, typhoons, and land raider will shoot whatever he can't take on.

 

Is he better than libby or chap? Probly not, but I wan't to model a PA spartan with side way crest and spear/sword(gladius).