Night Lords recruitment

[Scribe]

I think at the end of the day, you had legions that didnt quite share the morality that the Emperor had in mind for the great Enlightenment, and it was a necessary evil. Sure they could 'cleanly' end a planet's rebellion, but they went to far, to the point where planets where being murdered, or entire populations, just the same as the World Eaters.

 

Morality of the Legions aside, this creation myth for the night lords doesnt add much. A few wrinkles I could justify here or there due to this new information, but on a higher level? It doesnt sit well, with me.

[Brother Heinrich]

Unless there is something tied to the gene seed that requires certain upbringings that the Emperor foresaw. Besides people drawn from a society built from the descendants of prisoners would mean I would be a potential recruit for the Night Lords as a good chunk of my family is from Georgia, which was a 'penal' colony for a bit.

 

 

Nostramo isn't torn apart by sectarian violence, so exaggerating how bad it is to live in a 'gang' society is oversimplification. Gangs are domestic violent actors. Sectarian terrorists are violent transnational actors, which fall into a different category with similar modus operandi. Nostramo has never been described as people fighting over religion or political ideologies, just territory, which remains at a lower intensity than sectarian civil war.

 

For instance, Gang A is never likely to cross an ocean to exert influence over Gang B. It seems like Nostramo has a standard Marxist model of capital owners who control the adamantium output and manufactories, while the gangs act as the local form of 'government' allowed to operate at the discretion of the capital owners as long as it doesn't interfere with surplus value extraction. In fact this would be further supported by Kurze assuming total control of the means of production through proxy and violently enforcing his harsh rule of law through public execution. The factories ran, and the gangs were subsumed into the laborers in fear of execution, eliminating the class stratification and furthering the amount of wealth to be extracted.

 

Well said, thats exactly the point I'm trying to make. Nostramo and it's cities are not Chechnya or Somalia. Rather they're like a massive red-light district. Is the framework setup for criminal acts to occur? Most certainly, night all the time, dark city streets, no formal law outside of those imposed by the controlling gang. I can definitely see some of the more deranged of Nostramo's youth becoming members of the legion simply because they are the strongest or most cunning. It is definitely important to remember that this time period doesn't seem to see the incredibly intensive selection processes of the 41st millennium, the Legions need to replace losses, constantly, so it stands to reason that personality is secondary to compatibility.

 

That isn't to say though that every new recruit is some deranged psycho. Look at the youth of Fenris and tell me they haven't killed before they were old enough to grow a beard. Ditto goes for Baal or Cthonia. What I'm trying to say is that while Nostramo is most certainly an unpleasant and dangerous place to grow up, I think it is the practices of the Legion and the neglect of their father that truly establishes the Night Lords' predilection for murder, torture, and betrayal. Curze is so wrapped up in his own horrific visions of the future and twisted psyche from his time as a feral creature of the night, that he does nothing to stop his own legionnaires from killing one another to rise in rank. He encourages his legionnaires to commit heinous acts to teach higher lessons on obedience that in the end they don't care about. They use fear as a weapon, but it's a weapon that's also addicting to use. Even in nature apex predators are known go for mobility wounds so that they can eat their prey while still alive, it's intoxicating to them. Human beings and Astartes are no different. 

 

With the slew of different backgrounds in the legion you're going to have wildly varying psychological responses to the practices and customs of the legion. Some form a kind of twisted honor out of it, others become serial killers armored in midnight. I think, as Scribe of Khorne said, it cheapens the legion to just slap a label on it and say they were all certifiable psychos so thats why they turned out the way they did. That completely ignores the fundamental depth at work in the VIII legion. It's why every single Night Lord is different and has a different opinion on what their father had in mind for their future. I think it all comes back to the father, whether he is nurturing and protective, actively involved in the behavior and actions of his sons, or distant and uncaring and wrapped up in his own ego-mania or twisted psyche. As they say, the sins of the father... 

[Greyall]

I recall reading that the vast majority of Nostraman recruits were indeed on the lowish side of the human life respectability spectrum.

[Kol Saresk]

@WoT:

 

Betrayal, Page 121

 

"The story of the Dusk Raiders begins in the earliest days of the Unification Wars. The base stock for the majority of the initially raised Legions came from Terra, and in the case of the XIV Legion the main bulk of the gene-recruits used were drawn from the ancient and warlike clans of Old Albia. Indeed such was the suitability of this stock for induction to the ranks of the Space Marines, recruits drawn from Old Albia's towering, soot-blackened Castram cities were also to be found in the ranks of the founding VIII and X Legions, although to a lesser degree than the XIV who were by blood and culture shaped by the traditions of the warlords of Albia as well as the hand of the Emperor."

[Emperor's Furor]

Hmm well it doesn't particular mention that in the Night Lords part, yet it does a whole lot in the Iron Hands piece. They don't appear to have as much of an affect on the combat practices of the legion compared to how much the other two legions do, which basically sees them adopted with slight variations.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, it might be due to lower numbers or the tactics the Emperor gave them. Where the other two incorporated the cultural heritage, the VIII wasn't allowed to so it could be a Legion of Punishers.

[Brother Heinrich]

Well it's hard to know the effect the Albian recruits had on the legion as we really don't have a good depiction of what role they served and how they behaved before their reunion with Curze. Everything we know about the Night Lords is largely due to the influences of their father and Nostramo. The Night Lords may very well have been more of a model legion than we realized, we just don't yet know though.

[Greyall]

Well, if they're radically different or unable to adapt to the NL's new 'order', my guess is they'll be found with Astartes-pattern wounds on their backs.

[Emperor's Furor]

Well it's hard to know the effect the Albian recruits had on the legion as we really don't have a good depiction of what role they served and how they behaved before their reunion with Curze. Everything we know about the Night Lords is largely due to the influences of their father and Nostramo. The Night Lords may very well have been more of a model legion than we realized, we just don't yet know though.

It says in the book there was very little difference, certainly not the regimented stubborn characteristics that the other legions that drew from Albia had. "The warriors of the VIIIth were creatures made to live in the dark, and to fight a war for the future of the light" There was no grey area for them it was black and white.

[Brother Heinrich]

That'd be my guess Greyall, cleaning house, adapt or die.

[Kol Saresk]

Or running around with Sinner's Red.

[Augustus]

I dunno. I quite like the idea of the Emperor knowing the future backgrounds of the Primarchs. This is hinted in Deliverance Lost. I mean, the Emperor didn't go up to Curze and be like...yeah I hereby dub thee Konrad Curze. He saw into a future where he was named that. 

 

I imagine that when Chaos threw the Primachs to the wind the Emperor was able to direct them somewhat. Wolf DNA Primarch winds up on wolfy world? Angry Primarch ends up on really Angry gladiator planet which makes him only angrier. That doesn't mean he wanted Curze to land on Nostramo it means that He at some point knows he will land or landed on Nostramo and foresees the type of Legion he will create along with a name he never received. 

[Kol Saresk]

Actually we don't know what Angron was like before he got the Nails. For all we know he made Vulkan look callous, or Curze look like a cute and loveable teddy bear.

 

For farsight, iffy. When he walks up to other Primarchs, he doesn't tell them that they have a name different from what their world gave them. But when it comes to Curze, the Emperor walks up and goes "Thy name art Konrad", not "your name will be Konrad" but "your name is Konrad". It would almost suggest that the Emperor had names picked out for all of them, but "Night Haunter", was apparently the only name he saw was worth changing.

[Brother Heinrich]

By that logic he should have seen the heresy coming. Certainly in Mortarion and Angrons case, Lorgar too for that matter. More likely chaos preyed upon their nature and diverted them to worlds where they were most likely to be tainted.

[Emperor's Furor]

The Imperial Heralds main focus was to remove the most superstitious cultures, their heralds (later to become chaplains) would turn up on the door step, tell them to give into the Imperium or be burnt to the ground. A lot of the time these Heralds would be killed, but then what would follow was the Imperial Heralds would attack and pretty much burn the entire culture to the ground till they changed their minds, the used fire so much they were nicknamed the Iconoclasts to.

 

I think the problem is the primarchs had "set" reasons engineered into them by the Emperor, however within these set reason there are extremes and it really depended how the host world nurtured these characteristics and some would come out on the extreme side of certain aspects, Curze's need to deal out judgement and punishment went so far down the path that in the end everything was a "sin" to him. Roboute's organisational skills were nurtured on a world rich with organisation and politics where the better sides of this character could be nurtured etc etc. This can be applied to all the Primarchs.

[Verity]

That's pretty good, actually.

 

Like, maybe without that push from chaos, you have a slightly more compassionate Curze who wants to remove the corruption, but still raise what's left back up again. With the foul dregs of humanity that he's given, he was supposed to break them, tear the corruption from them, but then make them vigilant warriors and judgement passers - sharing a similar vision to him, capable of recognising the evil they once held and dealing with it.

 

Or not, you know. Either way, doesn't really mesh too nicely.

[Augustus]

I was referring to the fact that the War Hounds were noted for their aggressive behavior. More so than in the other legions.

 

About the name: Interesting view. Emperor being psychic and all and having observed Konrad/planet via his auguries might already know Curze never had a name, therefore he knew his name was destined to be Curze or gave him the one he picked out when he was still VIII in the tank.

 

Who said he didn't see the Heresy coming? If the Cabal, Curze, Eldrad and countless others could the Emperor could see at least parts of it coming..or so I believe.

[Emperor's Furor]

He knew it was coming but he didn't know from what direction would be my guess.

[Kol Saresk]

@Augustus: Ah, apologies. I saw "Angry Primarch lands on Angry gladiatorial world" and I thought you were talking about Angron.

 

According to The Outcast Dead, the Emperor couldn't see past a certain point. To Him, it was like knowing what tomorrow was going to bring, waking up, going through tomorrow and then no longer knowing. The Emperor was blinded. Meanwhile, what's the point of blinding Curze, the Cabal and countless others? It's not like their plans of stopping it from coming to pass worked and we know that their plans to alter its outcome will fail. And in the case of Curze, if he didn't see it coming he might have been loyal. Keeping the Emperor from seeing it served a purpose. Stopping everyone else would have just been a waste of time and has the potential of being counterproductive.

[Augustus]

I was attempting  to show the connection that the War Hounds were overly aggressive and so is their Primarch suggesting that someone or something desired Angron on that world (or perhaps their is a psychic link that makes Lamarck's theory of inheritance of acquired traits applicable?). You're right, I wasn't too clear before :D  

 

 

Yeah that seems to be the case. The Emperor seems blinded at some point but at what point? Ullanor? He knew when he met Corax that he would have 18 brothers which he would find. He knows he is dying at the end of the Heresy. (thanks to the prophecy? which is known to the cabal)

 

Him being blinded at some points doesn't discount the fact that he knew of the fates of the primarchs.

[GhostMalone]

It's probably been covered but have we considered the recruitment age and what Terran justice would have been like?

 

I'm just thinking say aged between 11-25 the kid could have been their due to parents speaking out about the tyrant emperor, stealing or any minor crime it's not necessarily the more extreme cases that would enter into the legion...

 

Anyone else think so?

[Kol Saresk]

11-25 seems the reasonable safe age. Justice department could end up going one of a million different ways since the Emperor supported the wholesale massacre of entire cities in Uniting Terra and had no problem with the Space Marines doing it so long as it did not interfere with the Crusade's momentum.

WoT: Was the institution a penal colony or a literal prison?

I ask because if it is a prison, then it would mean there was no such thing as juvie on 30K Terra.

If it's a colony, then it wouldn't necessarily mean the children were criminals, just that they were children of criminals. Or at least descendants. It would also mean that there was a chance that while there was a criminal element like there was in Nostramo, it might not have been as chaotic as Nostramo. Nostramo sounds like gangland Chicago gone to the extreme, so far in fact that everyone belongs to some sort of gang, and killing isn't just a necessity, but a literal way of life. If your boss pisses you off, kill him. If your underling pisses you off, tattoo his hands red so he becomes a leper to everyone else and then when his usefulness has ended, kill him.

It may not be Iraq or Afghanistan, but Gotham had some cops and a legal system, albeit a heavily corrupted one. Nostramo doesn't even seem to have that. "Every man did what was right in his own eyes." I believe was the Biblical phrase used to describe several periods of history in Israel and Judah where the laws existed, but nobody cared. That sounds like Nostramo's attitude, combined with Chicago Gangland's customs with a Punisher thrown into the middle of it who used bat-iconography because let's face it, Vampires are ing scary and they are truly monsters of the night. Besides, Vlad Tepes was pretty ruthless when it came to punishing lawbreakers and he's the inspiration for one of the most famous vampires of all time. Hey, that's an idea..... a Vlad-inspired Night Lord.....

[Adra'Melek]

The Impaler. Leaves the bodies impaled on spikes. Does that really fit the Night Lord theme?

[Conn Eremon]

For all we know, it was a political prison facility or colony that had been formed by a rival warlord of the Emperor's during the Unification Wars.

[Kol Saresk]

The Impaler. Leaves the bodies impaled on spikes. Does that really fit the Night Lord theme?

Considering Prince of Crows has the Night Haunter impaling someone to leave them as an example to the people passing below and not to mention the practice of blood condors which consists of making that little winged angel that Hannibal Lecter did to a cop in the end of Silence of the Lambs, I would go with yes, leaving morbid displays of death around for all to see definitely fits in the Night Lords theme.